Support NeoGAF

[drawkcaB]

my problem with ap bruisers is that they're a weird ass class that needs to be actually defined. the ones you listed are all over the place, swain is like a weird dot drain tank thingie (that builds a lot of damage mind you), grago is now a utility/damage/tank support, diana's an assassin, sorta, (like drawkcab said, abyss+zhonyas an ap bruiser does not make) and new nidalee isn't even out.

Yeah, quite true. Even if Riot came out and properly defined the class you'd soon find out tons of champs lie on some sort of boundary with another class.

I mean, I'm harping on AP bruiser itemization needing help only because if this is truly an issue Riot were to ever tackle (I'm not sure they even think this is an issue, to be honest) they'd probably want to go after it holistically, which means items as opposed to re-evaluating lots of champions.

Personally I'd rather they use damage scaling from defensive stats more liberally, but there's a few examples of that biting them in the ass so I get why they're hesitant. Then again I don't see an easy way to deal with the disparity between AD and AP bruisers/tanks. I suppose that if AP tank itemization were improved, then you could make make the case that AP bruisers trade some damage in exchange for more utility (which is generally true), but the balance between AD bruiser (damage) and AP bruiser (utility) is greatly tipped to the former.

 

[zkylon]

yea i think it's ok that certain stats favor one type over the other.

there won't ever be ad supports or ap carries or ad mages or whatever.

there might be some champions that bend and push around those roles (jayce is sort of an ad mage, kayle could be considered some sort of ap carry) but ap favors utility and ad favors damage so in the end ap champions end up being tanks and ad champions end up being bruisers

haunting guise upgrade might work, really, specially on dot champions like amumu, but since i feel like liandry's being wasted right now i'd love to see it repurposed for their sake. i mean, really i don't think anyone but brand and zyra are building that crap right now?

 

[Mister Negative]

I wish the loading screen wasn't just...black.

Is there some file I can change to make it look different maybe

 

[SZGF]

Despite getting tanky, Ryze is still a mage at the end of the day. Abyssal and Hourglass can make a mage more durable, but it doesn't make them into bruisers...more like AP fighters, if anything.

The big issue, as I see it, is that AP bruisers can't pick up a straight damage item or two and go full tank in the remaining slots unless there's something specific in their kit, namely a long duration DoT (Singed, Amumu) or a way to apply magic damage w/o active abilities. AD bruisers like Renekton and friends can pick up something like Hydra + Black Cleaver and that's all they need because those items won't just improve abilities, it also increases AA damage. AD bruisers get to "double dip" their damage stats in way most AP tanks/bruisers can't.

Bruisers are essentially "fighters"

And yeah, AD bruisers can build 1/2 damage items and go full tank precisely because they can double dip. This is simply the mechanics of the game. I'm not sure why AP bruisers have to be able to build like AD bruisers.

higher than average is not amazing, they have good sustain damage but they're no renekton or lee sin. they can't buy a single damage item and still wreck havok and i imagine having some more mpen won't fix that

my problem with ap bruisers is that they're a weird ass class that needs to be actually defined. the ones you listed are all over the place, swain is like a weird dot drain tank thingie (that builds a lot of damage mind you), grago is now a utility/damage/tank support, diana's an assassin, sorta, (like drawkcab said, abyss+zhonyas an ap bruiser does not make) and new nidalee isn't even out.

i'm not a big fan of the class, it doesn't seem to work the way ad bruisers work (and everyone loves those guys, right? hmm....) and knowing what monsters can come out of the mix of tankiness and ap (ryze) i'm not excited to see that class come to fruition

i think just giving ap tanks a few more damage oriented options should be enough to make them feel more menacing without introducing even more renektons into the world T_T

I was responding directly to you saying that tanks dont have good bases

Well the thing is, do I think that abyss+zhonyas an AP bruiser do make. It is essentially the mix of damage and surivability that makes a bruiser/fighter, it doesnt matter if it has to be damage items and tank items seperately or a combined mixture within the item itself.

Anyway, it's silly for us to debate definitions - I'm all for new item niches

 

[Newt]

yea i think it's ok that certain stats favor one type over the other.

there won't ever be ad supports

Jarvan support season 3 pls.

 

[zkylon]

Bruisers are essentially "fighters"

And yeah, AD bruisers can build 1/2 damage items and go full tank precisely because they can double dip. This is simply the mechanics of the game. I'm not sure why AP bruisers have to be able to build like AD bruisers.


I was responding directly to you saying that tanks dont have good bases

Well the thing is, do I think that abyss+zhonyas an AP bruiser do make. It is essentially the mix of damage and surivability that makes a bruiser/fighter, it doesnt matter if it has to be damage items and tank items seperately or a combined mixture within the item itself.

Anyway, it's silly for us to debate definitions - I'm all for new item niches

totes, names aren't that important but i was just trying to get to what types of champions people think when they think "ap bruisers"

personally i would rather riot created more "generic" items and let people create their own classes based on that than just trying to accommodate to what people are already expecting.

like outside of mighty jarvan 4 the best and strongest ad support to ever set foot on summoners rift, i think we're covered, i just rather they made support items that could find unique and interesting using in champions no matter if they were made for support or not, instead of just supporting what fans are randomly asking these days

like look where feral flare got us

I wish the loading screen wasn't just...black.

Is there some file I can change to make it look different maybe

yup, i hope they redo that too

redo everything!

visual update everything!

fucking buff lux

 

[Snowman]

lux is a stupid champ

 

[Moodmon]

That Ardent Censer passive will have to have a nerf. You guys already mentioned about things like a four man Thresh shield. What scares me more is that it offers six seconds of attack speed buff.

Sona's W is a 7 second cool down. Everyone to have all the attack speed, all the time. Not that I would be upset about being able to use more waifu. Still, passive would probably need a cool down or a limit to how many people it would work on. I mean Thresh need more utility, right?

Bit late, but liking the new VU for the rift. Daft as it sounds though, I wonder if it will be a bit more taxing on PCs. League is so popular I bet a lot of people play it on, to coin a phrase, shitboxes. Not sure how happy they would be if the system requirements went up - though I suppose lots of options to tone down the detail.

 

[Wolf Akela]

Sona's W is a 7 second cool down. Everyone to have all the attack speed, all the time.

This is assuming everyone's health% is healed in such a way that the the heal is rotated through them though.

 

[zkylon]

well that's only if sona w heals someone different every time which she probably won't unless people are randomly getting half killed or something

doesn't need to be everyone, adc is enough

it sounds like a really powerful item on like thresh to like fast push a turret or do baron or something tho

 

[Leezard]

I thought this would be a nice item on Nami/Karma for extra utility, but then I realised Thresh will gain the most from this item. At least he will have to give up a lantern CD for a while if he wants to use it I guess.

Then again, will this item work with Locket? If so, there's an interesting item combo.

The new Mikaels will be great on mana hungry supports such as Zyra and Nami though.

 

[Terbinator]

It's going to be fun experimenting with the new Mikales and AS item. Nami heal during TF could give out heals, damage and two AS buffs?

 

[Nekofrog]

jungle master yi emerges, ults, ghostblades, gets mikaeled, borks, destroys world.










i wake up from dream

 

[Moodmon]

This is assuming everyone's health% is healed in such a way that the the heal is rotated through them though.

True, I was thinking more in lane where after a point ADC gets a 25% AS buff most of the time, and certainly when needed. Ganks would benefit as well. Trying to think of other supports it would be really good on, Lux if anyone used her as support and Karma and her empowered shield.

Oh man, new BotRK proc plus this new support passive sounds like good times.

 

[zkylon]

True, I was thinking more in lane where after a point ADC gets a 25% AS buff most of the time, and certainly when needed. Ganks would benefit as well.

problem with this is that you're spending all your money on building a shitty as buff item that's impossible to sustain with sona without chalice

which already sets you back and you're not even counting gp10 and sighstone

this won't be a lane item, i'm guessing it's something to like push turrets or have teamfights with like a kayle mid or aatrox top or something

 

[Nekofrog]

"k im gonna mikaels you"
"but im full health"
"FUCK YOU IM SUPPORT I CALL THE SHOTS BORK HIM AND USE MIKAELS GOGOGO"

 

[Moodmon]

problem with this is that you're spending all your money on building a shitty as buff item that's impossible to sustain with sona without chalice

which already sets you back and you're not even counting gp10 and sighstone

this won't be a lane item, i'm guessing it's something to like push turrets or have teamfights with like a kayle mid or aatrox top or something

I have voluntarily played Taric for the last five games. Don't deny a man his waifu dream with logic and well reasoned debate. You wouldn't deny a man his waifu dream, right?

[insert borderline bannable Sona picture here]

 

[zkylon]

I have voluntarily played Taric for the last five games. Don't deny a man his waifu dream with logic and well reasoned debate. You wouldn't deny a man his waifu dream, right?

[insert borderline bannable Sona picture here]

that's ok, we share the same plight

sona will be back

she will be glorious

 

[Stone Ocean]

No cost increases for BF and IE? Price increase for BT so IE and BT carries have power spikes at similar times? Attack speed slow reduced as well on Randuins? New item for mana hungry ADCs? An item so defensive supports like Janna can shine again? Riot finally looking at Athene's so midlane stops being a bore?

At the low cost of having Heal nerfed? Is it my birthday?

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

4.10 ITEMISATION CHANGES

http://community.pbe.leagueoflegend...attack-speed-wardens-mail-support-itemization

Another patch where Stark's Fervor gets left in the dust.

I also like the preferential treatment for the sacred cow ADC by removing the itty-bitty slow active on Randuin's. Good luck Shyvanna, Udyr, Darius etc. on ever catching an ADC (one that isn't daft) if all of that goes through.

It would also synergize well with a sunfire.

Nothing would synergize well with an item that's crap.

 

[Pandaman]

-_-

This is just so stupid.

it's okay, we'll all just get plat and catch up to you.

NeoGAF team made it to Gold!

gj guys.
i love watching these games. GAF vs the world gets my blood pumping.

 

[Stone Ocean]

It's not "itty-bitty" when I'm an immobille carry with barely 400 MS running away from a Shyv with over 500, who once catches up will have access to at least two more slows . Also it's the passive slow that's going down, not the active one.

You shouldn't be able to catch me just because I'm kiting you. Work your butt like everyone else, Mister Bruiser.

 

[Pandaman]

You shouldn't be able to catch me just because I'm kiting you.

uh... you probably should be able to. kiting shouldn't be infinite free dps behind a skillcap. it should be something you buy or something specced into on a champion level.

 

[Stone Ocean]

uh... you probably should be able to. kiting shouldn't be infinite free dps behind a skillcap. it should be something you buy or something specced into on a champion level.

But that's the case. Very few adcs will keep bruisers at bay even orb walking without Trinity or Furor boots.
Riot could very well decrease PD and Shiv's MS to compensate for that - which would be very fair. I'm not saying ADCs shouldn't be catcheable, but the current patch where I have more chances to run away if I don't try kiting even with Red buff and Furor is completely backwards. Heal is getting nerfed for the same reason.

 

[Nekofrog]

But that's the case. Very few adcs will keep bruisers at bay even orb walking without Trinity or Furor boots.
Riot could very well decrease PD and Shiv's MS to compensate for that - which would be very fair. I'm not saying ADCs shouldn't be catcheable, but the current patch where I have more chances to run away if I don't try kiting even with Red buff and Furor is completely backwards.

well, this is where proper positioning and peel come into play.

 

[Pandaman]

But that's the case. Very few adcs will keep bruisers at bay even orb walking without Trinity or Furor boots.
Riot could very well decrease PD and Shiv's MS to compensate for that - which would be very fair. I'm not saying ADCs shouldn't be catcheable, but the current patch where I have more chances to run away if I don't try kiting even with Red buff and Furor is completely backwards.

that's not backwards at all. flat out running should be better because you're giving up any chance of doing damage. kiting should never be the optimum method of retreat, kiting is a for fighting not running.

and these particular bruisers [udyr/shyvana] are champions built around gapclosing purely through movespeed. they have to be able to eventually catch you if you kite them otherwise they are not functioning as champions. if running fast as the fastest running champions didn't work people would just play champions with dashes and targetable gapclosers instead.

well, this is where proper positioning and peel come into play.

yep. items and buffs are great ways to chase and fight while keeping distance while other forms of cc are on cooldown. if you're getting caught tell your zyra to kill shyvana faster.

 

[Leezard]

This next patch is gonna buff adcs so much. I'll have to try to find what's op first for the freelo.

 

[Stone Ocean]

that's not backwards at all. flat out running should be better because you're giving up any chance of doing damage. kiting should never be the optimum method of retreat, kiting is a for fighting not running.

and these particular bruisers [udyr/shyvana] are champions built around gapclosing purely through movespeed. they have to be able to eventually catch you if you kite them otherwise they are not functioning as champions. if running fast as the fastest running champions didn't work people would just play champions with dashes and targetable gapclosers instead.

I don't particularly mind getting caught by Udyr because he had to run to me, so yeah in his case you have a point. In Shyv's case she has her ult and will have the BoTRK slow and the Randuins slow AND outdamage me once she catches me, so I offer no pity.

If it does become overbearing for MS-only bruisers, then buff them to compensate if it becomes too much. My biggest problem is shit like Renekton just waltzing by my team, outdamaging me and still be impossible to run away from.

 

[Leezard]

Jinx is going to be insane with an IE rush.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Jinx is going to be insane with an IE rush.

With the Zeal buffs, I'm looking at IE > Zeal > LW as core. Should be pretty damn good.

Cait is also looking scary as fuck. BT Cait's poke has nothing on IE Cait's poke.

 

[Leezard]

With the Zeal buffs, I'm looking at IE > Zeal > LW as core. Should be pretty damn good.

Cait is also looking scary as fuck. BT Cait's poke has nothing on IE Cait's poke.

Indeed. The auto attack reliant adcs should gain quite a lot by this, and are going to get a much stronger mid game. I can see Varus rushing IE as well, since the BT won't give him more AD anymore.

 

[Nekofrog]

quinn's gonna...




quinn's gonna...




:\

 

[Leezard]

Quinn's gonna love the buffed Ghostblade

 

[Stone Ocean]

Quinn's gonna love the buffed Ghostblade

I also wonder how much will new BoTRK help her. Quinn sometimes built that, but with BT falling down BoTRK might be a better option.

Draven and MF could also make good use of Ghostblade.

 

[Edwardo]

So nothing is changing with Crucible's active, right? Ardent Censer looks really sweet. Especially for my old favorite champ, Janna. It sounds awesome for Karma too.

and lol wow, I just got like 6 emails for that password change request I submitted last night..

 

[Stone Ocean]

So nothing is changing with Crucible's active, right

Yeah. They're just giving it a real price and some extra stats to make up for it.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

It's not "itty-bitty" when I'm an immobille carry with barely 400 MS running away from a Shyv with over 500, who once catches up will have access to at least two more slows . Also it's the passive slow that's going down, not the active one.

You shouldn't be able to catch me just because I'm kiting you. Work your butt like everyone else, Mister Bruiser.

Oh yeah, freedom to move around is so elusive for ADC's like Lucian, Caitlyn, Tristana, Ezreal or even someone like Twitch. While potentially having Heal at their disposal. Never mind the dedicated support babysitting 'em with all their tools. And then there's Blade of the Ruined King. 10% slow was nothing in the grand scheme of it all.

Note: I only brought up bruisers who don't have non-movement speed gapclosers. The nerf to Randuin's is negligible for the likes of Renekton. Shyvanna is easily kited; her ability to stick to targets is vastly overrated. But if you as the above ADC are struggling to keep any of the ones I mentioned at bay, you're already doing something wrong... unless you're a sitting duck in a solo queue environment like Ashe or Kog'maw.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Oh yeah, freedom to move around is so elusive for ADC's like Lucian, Caitlyn, Tristana, Ezreal or even someone like Twitch. While potentially having Heal at their disposal. Never mind the dedicated support babysitting 'em with all their tools. And then there's Blade of the Ruined King. 10% slow was nothing in the grand scheme of it all.

Note: I only brought up bruisers who don't have non-movement speed gapclosers. The nerf to Randuin's is negligible for the likes of Renekton. Shyvanna is easily kited; her ability to stick to targets is vastly overrated. But if you as the above ADC are struggling to keep any of the ones I mentioned at bay, you're already doing something wrong... unless you're a sitting duck in a solo queue environment like Ashe or Kog'maw.

Like I said, bruisers without gap closers are the exception - and I was also talking about immobile carries like Jinx, Ashe, Varus, Kog. If Randuins fucks them too much, buff them and them alone. Reduce cooldowns, increase MS, increase upkeep, when you consider a small number of cases that ain't a problem. Some ADCs and items will also most likely be adjusted accordingly - Cait with Furor boots will be a bitch.

Meanwhile I'd like to keep the likes of Renek and Jax the fuck away from me.

 

[Edwardo]

EU LCS Summer Split - Week 3 - Day 2

Gambit Gaming vs SK Gaming
Millenium vs Copenhagen Wolves
Supa Hot Crew vs Alliance
Fnatic vs Roccat

Please use the LCS thread for further discussion. Let's keep this thread spoiler free.

 

[Leezard]

Oh yeah, freedom to move around is so elusive for ADC's like Lucian, Caitlyn, Tristana, Ezreal or even someone like Twitch. While potentially having Heal at their disposal. Never mind the dedicated support babysitting 'em with all their tools. And then there's Blade of the Ruined King. 10% slow was nothing in the grand scheme of it all.

Note: I only brought up bruisers who don't have non-movement speed gapclosers. The nerf to Randuin's is negligible for the likes of Renekton. Shyvanna is easily kited; her ability to stick to targets is vastly overrated. But if you as the above ADC are struggling to keep any of the ones I mentioned at bay, you're already doing something wrong... unless you're a sitting duck in a solo queue environment like Ashe or Kog'maw.

While the Randuin's nerf is going to hit those movespeed only champs, they do have many more options than before. When Randuin's was created it was essentially the only way for bruisers to not be kited, in a meta where Ashe was common. Bork is a common buy on these champs, so they can slow and stick to their target. Zephyr is a niche buy on Udyr as well.

 

[Subtle]

Bit late, but liking the new VU for the rift. Daft as it sounds though, I wonder if it will be a bit more taxing on PCs. League is so popular I bet a lot of people play it on, to coin a phrase, shitboxes. Not sure how happy they would be if the system requirements went up - though I suppose lots of options to tone down the detail.

Riot addressed this.

As for performance? Well, what good is a nicer looking League if it's unplayable? Currently, Riot doesn't have a whole lot to say about this, but the developers are definitely keeping in mind playability.

I still don't know what to think of all the ADC changes. I think I'll start playing some more Ashe/Kog in this new patch tho

 

[Talents]

Don't really care about the athene's nerf, the only mid laner I build it on is Lulu, my other AP mid laners don't need it (Viktor, Syndra, Brand, Swain).

 

[Tizoc]

4.10 ITEMISATION CHANGES

http://community.pbe.leagueoflegend...attack-speed-wardens-mail-support-itemization

- huge buff to merc scimitar
- decent buff to IE (maybe it will replace BT as the go to first AD item)
- ~3% nerf on all life steal items
- seems like a small nerf to BT, hp shield scales nonlinearly from 50 to 410
- mikaels is a lot more expensive, offers large mp5 + 10% cdr
- randiuns AS% slow to 10%, MS% slow gone (it was annoying anyway) (rise, ADC)

(NEW) Essence Reaver
RECIPE: Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 950 Gold = 2650 Total Gold Cost
Attack Damage: 50
Life Steal: 10%
Cooldown Reduction: 10%
UNIQUE Passive: You gain 2 to 8% of the damage dealt by basic attacks as Mana. Mana drain increases based on how much Mana you are missing.

- designed for caster carries but I can see this pretty amazing on cdr based bruisers. Carries just cant give up the slot efficiency for a decent mid game item in LoL

(NEW) Ardent Censer
Recipe: Forbidden Idol + Aether Wisp + 400 G = 1950 Total Cost
30 Ability Power
10 Mana Regeneration per 5 seconds
10% Cooldown Reduction
8% Movement Speed
Unique Passive: Whenever you heal or shield another champion, they gain 25% Attack Speed for 6 seconds.

- seems amazing.

What characters would benefit from that first new item?

 

[MaxiLive]

Lucian maybe? He seems to be the biggest mana user maybe Varus too.

 

[garath]

Lucian maybe? He seems to be the biggest mana user maybe Varus too.

I definitely run into mana issues with both Lucian and varus. They'll like that item. I can see corki, draven and ezreal enjoying it too.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Don't really care about the athene's nerf, the only mid laner I build it on is Lulu, my other AP mid laners don't need it (Viktor, Syndra, Brand, Swain).

Syndra and Brand both pretty much always get Athene's.

What characters would benefit from that first new item?

Ezreal, Sivir, Lucian

 

[Leezard]

I don't really see any adc buying that item since it's a mid tier item. They're going to be gimped once slot efficiency starts to matter. CDR is kinda meh on adcs as well.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I don't really see any adc buying that item since it's a mid tier item. They're going to be gimped once slot efficiency starts to matter. CDR is kinda meh on adcs as well.

Yeah. ADCs will want to min-max and this will gimp that. Maybe Talon would use this instead as a sort of AD Athene's? I dunno

 

[NihonTiger90]

I got stuck playing mid with Annie last night for the first time (someone had already jumped on ADC before I could do anything) and I was admittedly unprepared for it at all.

Things were going really well (I had Gangplank on lock and he was only able to push up when I had recalled to heal up) until they started pushing mid with Kog'Maw and Draven plus GP and drove all the way down to our mid inhib.

Thankfully, that woke my teammates up and got them to push back, and after they managed to push to mid inhib and take it down, we caught them offguard, pushed all the way back and aced them inside their own base. It was pretty fun, and our ADC did really well so I can't complain too much.

At least it wasn't like the game before when the top lane guy fed Teemo to high hell and we all paid the price for it ...

 

[Talents]

Syndra and Brand both pretty much always get Athene's.

Never really liked it on Syndra. Imo the mana regen isn't needed as much on her because if played right you can kill the opponent before you even get down to less than half mana.