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League of Legends |OT6| My AP Mid Can't Be This Cute

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T

Terbinator

Member
Meh, I had to a carry a Blue Ez yesterday who did nothing but bitch about Lucian melting him. I'd much rather have a Lucian, Draven and Cait to support than an Ez.
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Stone Ocean said:
It's not really about dueling, but tanks shouldn't be near death and take forever in their first clear.
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they totally should. Tanks are the Vaynes of the jungle, waiting for late game.

i'd also say the problem with first clears is somewhat overstated. blue dependence can be a problem, actual clearing not so much. naut has no trouble clearing. zac has no trouble clearing. first clears have been fine for awhile now. i'd hope riot focuses more on mana dependence or on how these champions have difficulty matching the jungle as it scales.
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Nekofrog said:
and while a tank jungler is nearly getting killed by his own jungle mobs, lee sin and co are out wrecking lanes, or killing the tank jungler at his own 2nd buff @4 minutes
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literally nobody gets killed by their own jungle and yeah, lee sin and co should be wrecking lanes in comparison. i dont want to replace lee sin with a tankier lee sin.

remember when Zac was a strong ganker with good clears? was that fun?
 
N

Nekofrog

Banned
Pandaman said:
literally nobody gets killed by their own jungle and yeah, lee sin and co should be wrecking lanes in comparison. i dont want to replace lee sin with a tankier lee sin.

remember when Zac was a strong ganker with good clears? was that fun?
Click to expand...

by the time a tank jungler finishes his/her 2nd buff (depending on the champion), they're almost forced to back just to heal up to begin an actual jungle clear or gank. the current crop who have been popular for way too long (especially lee sin) dont worry about this shit at all. so much so, in fact, that they can do their clear and still hunt out enemy junglers. and if it's a tank jungler, they're going to be finishing their 2nd buff waaaaay after a dps one which is bad news bears for them.
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Nekofrog said:
by the time a tank jungler finishes his/her 2nd buff (depending on the champion), they're almost forced to back just to heal up to begin an actual jungle clear or gank. the current crop who have been popular for way too long (especially lee sin) dont worry about this shit at all. so much so, in fact, that they can do their clear and still hunt out enemy junglers. and if it's a tank jungler, they're going to be finishing their 2nd buff waaaaay after a dps one which is bad news bears for them.
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which tank junglers specifically are you talking about. because the only jungler i can think of who straight up has to guzzle pots is sejuani.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
zkylon said:
i get the feeling problem with new bt is that maybe i'd rather it had no overheal passive and was just cheaper
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I had the same thought last night. Increase AD to 85, increase LS similarly, remove overshield, 3200g. Basically an old BT that is always at half-stacks.

costy said:
It'll be interesting to see what sort of items they buff/introduce. They have to be careful that they don't make the items good for fighters too, which has traditionally been an issue.
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This is why I'm not getting my hopes up. Tanks and Bruisers have too much overlap. I keep thinking of what this item could possibly be that off-tanks like Jarvan and friends can't use better. Riot should give up on differentiating tanks from bruisers. The only difference is that bruisers are allowed to have damage.

pandaman said:
they totally should. Tanks are the Vaynes of the jungle, waiting for late game.
Click to expand...

With the exception of Amumu and maybe Sejuani, this statement is largely false. The rest of the tank junglers don't scale any better than the others while taking longer to hit their stride.
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
drawkcaB said:
With the exception of Amumu and maybe Sejuani, this statement is largely false. The rest of the tank junglers don't scale any better than the others while taking longer to hit their stride.
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all teamfight oriented CC gets stronger as the game goes on. a zac double knockup or a naut ult will severely impact a teamfight and lengthening death timers means that the consequences of the fight get worse and worse.

Tank junglers that dont have great CC or some other talent to make up for limited CC tend to be the exceptions. ie: maokai/volibear.
 
G

Ghost is Bad

Banned
Don't underestimate 70 HP early. It massively improves your ability to trade in lane and the extra 3% LS will basically match a Vamp Scepter's early stats if you still have your first dorans.
 
S

Stone Ocean

Member
The deal with IE is that it has fantastic components.

A BFS + Pickaxe + Cloak recipe means you can backtrack on the IE rush any time you want if things go south.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
Pandaman said:
all teamfight oriented CC gets stronger as the game goes on. a zac double knockup or a naut ult will severely impact a teamfight and lengthening death timers means that the consequences of the fight get worse and worse.
Click to expand...

That's how it's supposed to work in theory, but that's not what's happening. The early game damage, jungle pressure, map control etc. from the "meta" junglers has an effect on every champion in the game. It's not just the tank jungler who needs more time to catch-up, it's potentially his entire team. You can land all the great depth charges, slingshots, etc. you want, if your team is down 8k+ gold and several levels, you're not likely going to win that fight.

If the game is drawn out to the point where every champ is level 18 with 4+ completed items then yeah, tanks are exceptional. The problem is that it takes way too long to get there to make it worth the pick.

Going back to your "tanks are Vayne's of the jungle" analogy, imagine for a moment that in an otherwise average match Vayne needs 30 minutes to ramp up just to be on par with the opposing ADC in teamfights and another 15 minutes to be clearly better. Even if you're good with Vayne, it'd be a bad idea to pick her because the opposing ADC will pick an early game ADC and you'll never make it to 45 minutes. That's just about where lots of tank junglers are right now. If tank junglers' "ramp up time" was sensible (and hell, true), particularly in a supposed meta where games are lasting a long time, you'd be seeing them with more than the low pick rate and meandering win rates most of them currently have.

Yeah tank junglers should be on the weak side early on, sure, but give them a fighting chance. Changes such that the jungle isn't beating the living shit out of Sejuani until she gets to level 7+, such that Nautilus isn't consigned to a guaranteed death in a counter gank, such that Moakai isn't completely fucked on a successful level 1 blue invade would be good for the game.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
I tried Miss Fortune and won, but she felt so incredibly weak like she always has to me. When I ulted crowds of enemies I did some damage, and double-up poked a little bit, but I felt like I was doing something wrong.

I went 21/9/0, had 2 doran's, infinity edge, black cleaver...I forget what else. I pretty much couldn't do anything besides kill towers though, and if anyone like Caitlyn got close enough to attack me then I couldn't do much damage in exchange. No escapes and no peel (solo queue) means that assassins are rough too.

Even early game, I hardly ever got double-up to hit any champions unless I targeted them with the first hit. Is it always directly behind the target?
 
N

Newt

Member
Blizzard said:
I tried Miss Fortune and won, but she felt so incredibly weak like she always has to me. When I ulted crowds of enemies I did some damage, and double-up poked a little bit, but I felt like I was doing something wrong.

I went 21/9/0, had 2 doran's, infinity edge, black cleaver...I forget what else. I pretty much couldn't do anything besides kill towers though, and if anyone like Caitlyn got close enough to attack me then I couldn't do much damage in exchange. No escapes and no peel (solo queue) means that assassins are rough too.

Even early game, I hardly ever got double-up to hit any champions unless I targeted them with the first hit. Is it always directly behind the target?
Click to expand...
It's not directly behind the target. It follow the trajectory of the shot.
 
G

Ghost is Bad

Banned
Blizzard said:
I tried Miss Fortune and won, but she felt so incredibly weak like she always has to me. When I ulted crowds of enemies I did some damage, and double-up poked a little bit, but I felt like I was doing something wrong.

I went 21/9/0, had 2 doran's, infinity edge, black cleaver...I forget what else. I pretty much couldn't do anything besides kill towers though, and if anyone like Caitlyn got close enough to attack me then I couldn't do much damage in exchange. No escapes and no peel (solo queue) means that assassins are rough too.

Even early game, I hardly ever got double-up to hit any champions unless I targeted them with the first hit. Is it always directly behind the target?
Click to expand...
Don't get that. Looking at your item build, you would have done a lot of damage...if you bothered buying an attack speed item.
 
O

Orochinagis

Member
I am still earning her but didnt deal enough damage cuz they flash or go inmune to my attacks so I have to run away, yesterday I found a gragas players that literally kills me in two hits
 
C

CRS

Member
Last whisper would have been better depending on how much armor the enemy team had.

For junglers with difficult clear, they should introduce a new starting jungle item that has an aura passive like Sunfire cape that does more damage as you upgrade it and/or let it scale per level or hp/armor. Let it do X amt of dmg to monsters and a fraction of that to champs.
 
T

tm24

Member
Oh my god, played Vi for the first time ever in ranked (I know, i'm bad, but ive seen enough of her being played with my friend that I somewhat knew what i was doing). She's so fun. 4 minutes in had a great q gank on a nid with LB just nuking her after i touched nid. Had a failed flash q on bot lane that missed by an inch, but it gave my bot lane room to breath, so all good.

Come lv6, shit just gets real. It's so fun zooming around with q. Built Lizard/TF/Tabis/Sunfire/Randuins/Black Cleaver and then just melted people even when we got engaged by a thresh/amumu. Soloing a Lucian is so great. I love Vi
 
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