I think I agree with Tabzzz. Draven doesn't benefit from PD/Shiv as much as other ADCs do. I did notice the later powerspike too.
League of Legends |OT6| My AP Mid Can't Be This Cute
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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Not in my ELO.
yeah i can see youmuss being good on draven who deals more crzy damage in bursts compared to more cait/trist style ie users
im rewriting this for new page:
tabz also says jinx is bad now, tho dbl says she's "up there"
iunno im pretty interested in seeing lcs on this new patch, i dunno when that is though
i like that tabz talks about forcing backs at particular gold moments, which is a little more in depth than when everyone would rush bt
the tentative consensus is that cait, kog, twitch, lucian (early nerfed, late still similar), and mebbe trist, are all da doods atm; im more on the side of jinx being prtty good, but tabz says shes poop and he's my fantasy ad, so i dont know what to do
cait kinda seems like she has the perfect kit for this patch, like even though she has less waveclear she can ie/shiv and be prtty successful
i feel like draven should be strong because even tho bt was great for him, with everyone else losing it too he still has a great lvl 6 spike and fighting with his q during doranz time
he just doesn't bring that much in a 2v1/0
tabz is pro botrk on lucian, to the extent where he said during 3.9 that botrk is pretty much the best thing to get after lw, and dbllift thinks its poop so im liking this meta war between tabzz and dbllift tho rekless wins in the end
im rewriting this for new page:
tabz also says jinx is bad now, tho dbl says she's "up there"
iunno im pretty interested in seeing lcs on this new patch, i dunno when that is though
i like that tabz talks about forcing backs at particular gold moments, which is a little more in depth than when everyone would rush bt
the tentative consensus is that cait, kog, twitch, lucian (early nerfed, late still similar), and mebbe trist, are all da doods atm; im more on the side of jinx being prtty good, but tabz says shes poop and he's my fantasy ad, so i dont know what to do
cait kinda seems like she has the perfect kit for this patch, like even though she has less waveclear she can ie/shiv and be prtty successful
i feel like draven should be strong because even tho bt was great for him, with everyone else losing it too he still has a great lvl 6 spike and fighting with his q during doranz time
he just doesn't bring that much in a 2v1/0
tabz is pro botrk on lucian, to the extent where he said during 3.9 that botrk is pretty much the best thing to get after lw, and dbllift thinks its poop so im liking this meta war between tabzz and dbllift tho rekless wins in the end
Terbinator
Member
My 'ad troll' ArPen page I roll out with Draven is an absolute joke late game. Time to try it with GB.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
fuck that furry little shitehead. makes 30 minute games 60 minutes because it's impossible to push on him.
I don't see how Jinx could be bad on this patch. Her rockets - which is what you'll be starting off with in teamfights - can AoE crit. That's potentially insane. I guess you can make an argument that there's a value in being able to go either BotRK or IE (kog, twitch, Trist) but then again Cait can't do that either. I'm not sold on BotRK on Lucian.
Nope, needs more.
zkylon said:
Nope, needs more.
While I don't have many problems with ziggs I do think his range and wave clear should have clear drawbacks.
Compare anivias heavy mana costs, still shitty auto and competitive wave clear to ziggs.
She was slower and far more mana hungry. Also ziggs had the better seige. I would like to think of the champs in a similar role.
Ziggs can keep the clear but a movement speed drop is fair.
Had anyone found any success with the new items?
people greatly exaggerate zigg's game extending ability. want to get it under control? take his blue buff from him. i've played enough ziggs to know that just having a chalice is not enough to defend against a siege, you can't constantly spam your stuff with just that item.
does he prolong games? yes. he doesn't turn 30 minute games into 60 minute games, he doesn't make it impossible to close a game. there are ways to play around him. every champ is supposed to bring something to the table; ziggs kit specializes in aoe damage. you want to just remove every aoe champ from the game because it does what its intended to do?
does he prolong games? yes. he doesn't turn 30 minute games into 60 minute games, he doesn't make it impossible to close a game. there are ways to play around him. every champ is supposed to bring something to the table; ziggs kit specializes in aoe damage. you want to just remove every aoe champ from the game because it does what its intended to do?
you should give up something for a fast super long range aoe nuke on a 4s cd (with 0% cdr lawl)
i can appreciate him being the absolute monster of waveclear, i like that idea of champions being totally op on one aspect and having glaring weaknesses in others, i just don't know what ziggs' is (denying blue buff is a weakness of like 99% of mids so that doesn't count)
he can self peel the best out of all mages i can think of, he's above average in any scenario except maybe creating picks himself (tho he's got no problem putting in the dmg for another player's pick), he's a beast at all points of the game
personally i think he should have less range on his q, make it like (random example) 600-1200.
now he has to get closer or play with the bounces if he wants to waveclear, but he can still clear two lanes at once with his ult and he's still king at his thing
i can appreciate him being the absolute monster of waveclear, i like that idea of champions being totally op on one aspect and having glaring weaknesses in others, i just don't know what ziggs' is (denying blue buff is a weakness of like 99% of mids so that doesn't count)
he can self peel the best out of all mages i can think of, he's above average in any scenario except maybe creating picks himself (tho he's got no problem putting in the dmg for another player's pick), he's a beast at all points of the game
personally i think he should have less range on his q, make it like (random example) 600-1200.
now he has to get closer or play with the bounces if he wants to waveclear, but he can still clear two lanes at once with his ult and he's still king at his thing
Ziggs is slow enough that even with a good satchel he can still get caught by someone with a decent gap close or just a high move speed. The assassins give Ziggs fits because they can leap to him and run him down after his panic satchel. I main Ziggs in the mid, but I don't mind playing against him. I'll just go Katarina or Talon and dodge bombs and wait for his E to be on cooldown. He's dead once you catch back up to him after his satchel if you don't kill him in the initial burst.
Honestly, I'd nerf his W and he'd be fine. Make the satchel launch him, but remove the pop up from enemy champs. Maybe give it a slight slow rather than a stun. It would cut down on him being able to run over and peel for allies being chased and it would definitely make him an easier gank target.
Sigh.. first game back in ages, play ranked and our top disconnects from the moment the game starts. 4v5 gg.
When you don't get to play many games, that really sucks.
edit: can't believe I'm holding onto Gold III. I'm still playing with Gold Is so I guess my MMR is up there still but I'm on a 3 game losing streak with -3 lp in Gold III
When you don't get to play many games, that really sucks.
edit: can't believe I'm holding onto Gold III. I'm still playing with Gold Is so I guess my MMR is up there still but I'm on a 3 game losing streak with -3 lp in Gold III
Dreams-Visions
Member
I've been playing MOBAs long enough to be comfortable in any style and any position. I just want to win, man. Putting myself in the best position to carry the inevitable team of slackers is the style I like. ;_;
totally against this, satchel is like the one thing about ziggs i find interesting since it has a good amount of situational uses and is a pretty player skill-reliant spell
besides, how do you even get to a ziggs as talon or katarina. shunpo is 700 range, no idea about talon jump but it should be close. why would ziggs waste e and then overextend unless he does a crazy misplay?
well if you don't want to have but want dem juicy lps just spam support morgana
Can't say I agree with everything here, but he does need his weaknesses to be more pronounced. That said, even though Q on a 4s CD is stupid, it's suits the character so well. His theme is a manic bomber and so he should have some spammy-ness to his kit. He's certainly not getting that out of W and E. Maybe an ammo system? Reduce his bomb damage by I dunno, 25%, when he has ammo stacks available bombs deal normal damage. Could even play around with it visually, make the low damage bombs appear broken, defective like.
Stone Ocean
Member
Jinx is perfectly fine.
The BT rush was meant for her W and Ult's power, with an IE rush part of her power is shifted torwards her auto attacks so it evens out.
The BT rush was meant for her W and Ult's power, with an IE rush part of her power is shifted torwards her auto attacks so it evens out.
BT changes definitely made her weaker. Her laning was mediocre already.
I would also like to point out that ziggs right now is weaker than he was when he got his first (and really only) buff so long ago when he was already considered weak. The reason he is strong now is because the meta shifted to allow him to be relevant again.
Not every champion needs to be high skill cap
Not every champion needs to be high skill cap
Stone Ocean
Member
It didn't really change anything about her laning, but I agree that she is overall weaker since it takes longer for her first item spike. Having to lane more is pretty bad for her, since it'll take longer for her to be able to melt towers.
Once she gets IE she's better though.
i dunno i wouldn't try to find a rework that changed what people already love about him
my problem with him is how safe he is, lowering q range would give him a straight up weakness in the same way lux's passive gives her one through cool risk-reward shit. no need for fancy system changes or anything.
he also has way too many good skins, and that's just not fair
i was saying he was stupid before he even got buffed!
agreed
Stone Ocean
Member
"Considered". When Ziggs got buffed, the only reason he was relatively weak was because assassins ruled mid lane. Then they got destroyed and now you had an extremely overtuned mage to deal with.
Not every champion needs to be high skill cap, agreed. Doesn't mean that being able to easily stall the game for 20 minutes should be a thing. You don't see Garen or Katarina making it impossible to push a lane with zero effort and risk.
Skill floor (which I think is what you're really talking about) shouldn't be considered for balance.
His bombs explode on contact, straight range reductions would be bad. Maybe damage reduction per bounce to hit his zoning and wave clear. Reduce the cast range slightly, increase base damage so that "zero bounce" short range bombs are rewarded.
It is all the time. This is why targeted abilities are generally less powerful than skillshots.
Stone Ocean
Member
It means you should mute whoever said it to you.
Kill steal. As in, you killed someone who one of your teammates was going to kill.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
wait, why would it be bad?
you now gotta get a bit closer to get that bomb in the middle of the wave, but it's still pretty long range with the bounces
i don't agree with the dmg reduction on bounces because i don't think ziggs should be rewarded for low range stuff (which is why i think his passive is dumb)
means kill steal
tho people talking about kill steals are idiots and you shouldn't pay attention to them
if you're even 1% unsure if the guy is gonna run away just go ahead and kill him. it's not worth it to risk him escaping
Pretty much, anyone who says that you should instantly flag as a douche who doesn't understand the game. Granted sometimes you wanna give kills to certain people (if you're a support, a jungler that can't carry, or someone has a quadra and that last kill would of been their penta), but no one should ever get mad over opponents dying.
His argument has been used to justify such shit as "it's ok for Lee Sin to dominate the jungle because he's high skill floor" and that's frankly bad for the game holistically.
zkylon said:
I don't know how you can say this in one post and laud Lux's passive just a few posts above. The idea is the same - bring him closer to achieve max damage.
Damage reduction on bounce would go a fair way to resolving his siege/counter siege power.
Except Lee Sin isn't hard.
If people can accomplish the same thing on two different champions and one has dramatically reduced fail states they'll just play that.
Tizoc
Member
http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Warwick
Was thinking BoRK would be a decent weapon to have on warwick.
Was thinking BoRK would be a decent weapon to have on warwick.
hmm ziggs is annoying to play against but don't think he needs a massive nerf. his kit is easy to learn and very good at farming, probably why he does so well in lower tiers. nerf kayle though, her ult has a very short cooldown. maybe make it last longer but longer cooldown.
because lux is by far a more risk-taking champion than ziggs and lux has been built around that passive which gives her different playstyles by game time (early on you can be more aggressive and use the passive for your combo but also to help waveclear, harass, etc., while lategame you basically just don't use it for anything but your ult) and also rewards her for playing aggressive and skillfully, sort of like a lite version of riven passive
having ziggs bombs do less damage the further they get means you're rewarding point blank shots which are super easy to land. if anything it should be the other way around like nidalee spears, but that wouldn't solve anything, which is why i think they should just have less range overall
i dunno if i explained what i mean correctly, i'm bad at this
No he's not. Neither is any champion in LoL. I'll be damned if any take more than 20 games to get a solid handle on. I used him as an example because I kept seeing that argument everywhere during his planned rework debacle.
Which is why LoL shouldn't be balanced based on individual v. individual champ strengths. It's a factor in why the competitive scene has so few picks at any time. And again, no champ is actually hard to learn, so I don't think this is a particularly strong argument either way.
As if Draven/Cass/Ori take twenty minutes to learn.
Also, it not about a champion being hard/easy to learn, it's about executing their skills.
I had a game as Tristana where my support complained that I kept taking all the kills.
Didn't really know what to say.
I am confused by this. If they don't balance champions at least partially by comparison with other champions, it seems like that would itself reduce variety in the metagame -- you'll have champs that are balanced for their role that are practically inferior to similar champs, who won't get played. Why do you think the opposite?
you also don't see ziggs diving head on into a fight and assassinating four people. Different roles.
I believe there absolutely should be a few champs whose role is to delay the game for a bit to allow his team to catch up. The flipside allows that champ to also help close it faster (though this is harder to do in solo q)
omg newt respects me
again agreed
i don't think the concept of ziggs is bad, just the execution
like, i love janna and her whole thing is like stopping people from killing themselves which is kind of the point of this whole darned game. variety and uniqueness is awesome when it's got clear strengths and weaknesses
Kotetsu534
Member
I think there should be a bit more strategy involved in Ziggs' stalling. Right now, he more or less outscales (or scales evenly) with every other mid champion in terms of late game teamfighting while stalling the game out to force late game teamfighting. If he was a somewhat weaker end game teamfighter then you'd need to combine Ziggs' stalling potential with champions that scale into late game well (Nasus/Jax/Vayne/Ryze/Trist/Amumu etc.). Problem is where to redistribute his power - I don't think making him an even stronger early bully would be wise.
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