Support NeoGAF

[Tizoc]

BT is not a good item to rush, the shield is meh early and 20% lifesteal won't help much until you get a ton of AD first. IE will give you the most damage at your first power spike - 1500~ish gold - but is the most expensive item you can get and your next power spikes aren't as good until you grab at least a zeal. BoTRK Ghostblade will give you a weaker power spike with Cutlass, but unless you get destroyed you'll get BoTRK Ghostblade more or less at the same time the enemy finishes IE boots, and that 2 item power spike is much bigger than IE's.

Frankly with Twitch you should just stick to BoTRK and play safer.

For some reason whenever I play as Twitch, my support would ask me where my damage is and that's when I built Cutlass as my first item >_>;

So thoughts on the new item changes? ...and wasn't Twitch supposed to get an attack damage boost?

 

[garath]

So what's this Sona "tagging" thing and is that graphic circle around her the only area of affect for her auras now? That's REALLY small.

I think I'm missing something key here on the Sona rework.

edit: Ok. So re-reading the Sona rework page it sounds like yes, the graphic is the size of the aura now.. ouch. And the tagging is basically affecting a teammate with her aura, making it last longer on herself? I think that's it right?

 

[Tizoc]

So what's this Sona "tagging" thing and is that graphic circle around her the only area of affect for her auras now? That's REALLY small.

I think I'm missing something key here on the Sona rework.

From what I'm reading, when she has an ability/aura active, the buff you get only lasts a short duration then dissipates?

 

[PhillipCostigan]

that OGN ending

:bow :bow :bow

 

[Edwardo]

that OGN ending

:bow :bow :bow

That was nuts man.

 

[Opiate]

How is Sona's rework not just a massive nerf?

 

[PhillipCostigan]

How is Sona's rework not just a massive nerf?

it's probably a nerf now, but it's a kit that's more balanceable.

old Sona's kit was so binary and lacked interaction that she was always going to be too good or not good enough, as was the case pre-patch

There's more of a chance of Sona being a good pick again now than with her previous kit

 

[Stone Ocean]

How is Sona's rework not just a massive nerf?

Reworks are not meant to be buffs straight out. Now that she has a more manageable kit, if she's weaker they can just buff her.

Personally I think her Q procs will be scary eventually.

 

[garath]

How is Sona's rework not just a massive nerf?

Like Philip is saying, I think the idea is now that the auras are limited in range and duration, they can now play with the numbers a bit more and maybe give her more of a punch without causing her to go out of control.

It's definitely a nerf initially though

 

[Leezard]

One of the points of the rework was to give her more visible power and less invisible power. If she is weak now, which is possible, she will hopefully get buffed in a month or so.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

this is amazing.

 

[Pancakes]

Yea Sona's winrate is gonna drop a little bit in the beginning. But this will allow Riot to fine tune her kit now that you can visablly see her power (or lack thereof).

 

[Edwardo]

EU LCS Summer Split - Week 11 - Day 2 - SUPER WEEK

Roccat vs Supa Hot Crew
Alliance vs Gambit Gaming
Roccat vs Copenhagen Wolves
SK Gaming vs Alliance
Gambit Gaming vs Alliance
SK Gaming vs Fnatic

Please use the LCS thread for further discussion. Let's keep this thread spoiler free.

 

[Leezard]

Hey, Edwardo, thanks for keeping the match schedules + timers every week.

 

[Opiate]

it's probably a nerf now, but it's a kit that's more balanceable.

old Sona's kit was so binary and lacked interaction that she was always going to be too good or not good enough, as was the case pre-patch

There's more of a chance of Sona being a good pick again now than with her previous kit

Reworks are not meant to be buffs straight out. Now that she has a more manageable kit, if she's weaker they can just buff her.

Personally I think her Q procs will be scary eventually.

Oh I'm not suggesting reworks should be a buff, just not a massive nerf, either. As an old Paladin player from WoW, I actually enjoyed being a buffer. I wouldn't want every champion to be like that, but I liked having one champion like that.

I often feel like I'm out of sync with mainstream game design (Although I'm confident my preferences are actually pretty popular broadly, they are currently out of the mainstream regardless). For instance, I prefer games where offense is better for casual/fun competitions, but defense is best at the very high levels of play. Everyone loves home runs, but pitching wins championships; every loves touch downs, but defense wins the super bowl, etc.

In the most popular modern games -- not just league, mind you -- this doesn't seem to be the case. Aggression and offensive play is clearly the optimal strategy.

 

[garath]

Watching Nightblue play Elise finally (he's been avoiding it all morning).

Already seen the cocoon nerf come into play. The rappel nerf doesn't seem TOOOOO bad.

 

[scy]

Everyone loves home runs, but pitching wins championships; every loves touch downs, but defense wins the super bowl, etc.

Broadly speaking, this is because they have goals / scores / however we want to word it. It's hard for League to have much of a defensive focus with a one-of victory condition.

Edit: And then, yeah, offensive oriented leads to a greater playerbase since it's more fun for more people. Look at Hearthstone where a lot of the mechanics are tuned for the aggressor, the moba genre in general, etc.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Oh I'm not suggesting reworks should be a buff, just not a massive nerf, either.

It's not about buffs or nerfs, really. Sona was initially nerfed for a reason, Riot doesn't want to rework her to be batshit strong right out of the gate, they gotta take it slow to make sure they did it right.

It was pretty much the same with every rework that happened this year and Lucian is basically what happens when Riot gives too compensation for the rework in one go.

 

[Edwardo]

Hey, Edwardo, thanks for keeping the match schedules + timers every week.

Thanks

I like doing it and it keeps everyone updated with LCS.

 

[scy]

It was pretty much the same with every rework that happened this year and Lucian is basically what happens when Riot gives too compensation for the rework in one go.

I honestly still think the Lucian change pushed him closer to binary territory than he was before. He'll either be overtuned or not good enough to warrant the risk. The outlier here is he's fun.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

In the most popular modern games -- not just league, mind you -- this doesn't seem to be the case. Aggression and offensive play is clearly the optimal strategy.

that's interesting, coming off the OGN series this evening

the team that played the more aggressive, pick style is the team that lost. whereas the more conservative and objective focused team in each game won.

 

[Haly]

Pro players tend to gravitate toward "optimal play". When "defense" is too good, in the context of a MOBA, it leads to very stale and boring safe, farm-based gameplay, which is counterproductive to a spectator sport. There's a balance to be had there, to be sure, but I think it's better to err on the side of aggression. MOBAs are pretty unique in that the highest level of play tends to trickle down towards lower levels of play, so when the pros start turtling and farming for 40 minutes, pubs will start doing it too, and everyone's experience will be worse for it.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Damn it tumblr, it's been like a day and there's already Arcade MF fanart

 

[Opiate]

Pro players tend to gravitate toward "optimal play". When "defense" is too good, in the context of a MOBA, it leads to very stale and boring safe, farm-based gameplay, which is counterproductive to a spectator sport. There's a balance to be had there, to be sure, but I think it's better to err on the side of aggression. MOBAs are pretty unique in that the highest level of play tends to trickle down towards lower levels of play, so when the pros start turtling and farming for 40 minutes, pubs will start doing it too, and everyone's experience will be worse for it.

Yes, MOBAs are unique particularly in the sense that they have significant PvE content, which is less fun for me generally and would be particularly boring if it were "defensive."

I LIKE defensive PvP, though. I absolutely love survival and defensive strategies. Part of the reason I love dominion so much is that I've risen to the top of the ranks playing tanks who take forever to kill (Leona/Rammus/Mundo going full Armor/MR/CDR).

 

[Otakumegane]

With the new patch live, I've been doing extremely good with Hecarim.

His early game clearing and ganking still sucks though and he takes way too much damage, but his late game is so much more usable now that he doesn't run out of mana in the jungle.

I think he's a decent pick when your team has a nasus top lane or something so you don't have to worry ganking for him early.

Also, elise nerfs lee sin nerfs and evelynn nerfed just buffed my jungle amumu that much more.

Eheheheheheheh.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

why is it every patch i have to wait for 6 hours just to get it working.

 

[Orochinagis]

One of the points of the rework was to give her more visible power and less invisible power. If she is weak now, which is possible, she will hopefully get buffed in a month or so.

Yeah visible, visible for the enemies.

How is Sona's rework not just a massive nerf?

As a Sona player I now feel forced to stay forward of my adc or being glued to a champion to do something, whichs feels weird because you are a support not orianna ball

 

[Ghost is Bad]

does q>PC>q still blow up like half of someone's health level 1?

 

[Blizzard]

does q>PC>q still blow up like half of someone's health level 1?

Did it ever if you have magic resist runes, unless Sona is running an AP carry 21/9/0 masteries and rune page or something? That's also an 8-second combo...an AD carry and enemy support could probably autoattack you a few times before you can use Q again.

 

[brian!]

It also makes me really scared to waste my TP offensively because of the risk where I can lose my tower and/or a few waves of xp with the included bonus of a 5 minute cool down if my TP gank fails for some reason.

da shen syndrome

 

[Kenai]

Yes, MOBAs are unique particularly in the sense that they have significant PvE content, which is less fun for me generally and would be particularly boring if it were "defensive."

I LIKE defensive PvP, though. I absolutely love survival and defensive strategies. Part of the reason I love dominion so much is that I've risen to the top of the ranks playing tanks who take forever to kill (Leona/Rammus/Mundo going full Armor/MR/CDR).

Defensive PvP can still be very much a thing though, right? I can think of several champions designed for aggression, but i can also think of several champions designed to counter those champs who want to all in (absolute best example I can think of is Braum).

It's not the norm since defensive champs are usually regulated to supports, tank tops and tanky junglers (which aren't always picked, plenty of aggressive supports and tops and junglers too), and depending on the phase of the game even those champs can turn aggressive, but then there's the "defense" of a well placed ward, dealing with counterjungling or a gank, foiling a Baron attempt, and even farming at a tower. They aren't given direct monetary rewards the same way cs and kills/assists do, but they still do win games.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

hybrid pen runes shred enemies with Q>PC>Q which is what made sona so hard for champs like Morgana to trade with.

also it wasn't 8 seconds lol. if anyone except for leona tries to trade with a Sona after taking a chunk like that then sona would press w 3 times and be back to full health.

 

[Burt]

So I learned how to Swain in Dominion. Now I just need to learn how to not get matched with the dumbest teammates in existence.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

So I learned how to Swain in Dominion. Now I just need to learn how to not get matched with the dumbest teammates in existence.

not possible.

 

[Stone Ocean]

So I learned how to Swain in Dominion. Now I just need to learn how to not get matched with the dumbest teammates in existence.

If you ever figure it out, share it with us

 

[dimb]

How is Sona's rework not just a massive nerf?

Have you jinxed a Lucian 2.0 situation?

 

[Leezard]

hybrid pen runes shred enemies with Q>PC>Q which is what made sona so hard for champs like Morgana to trade with.

also it wasn't 8 seconds lol. if anyone except for leona tries to trade with a Sona after taking a chunk like that then sona would press w 3 times and be back to full health.

The combo is not Q>PC>Q. It's auto>Q>PC. You can execute it very quickly, as power chord gives you an auto attack reset.

 

[zkylon]

i don't see how sona rework is a nerf, numbers on q and w are pretty huge

 

[Orochinagis]

oh god, Sona's E ...what did they do to her E being only in her aura pool....but left her W heal and Q range intact outside her aura pool range...

And fought against Fizz, my allies just gathered around me for the aura buff so fizz just do his R on me, guess Sona is a big no against AOE after all. right now Sona feels so limited with her time auras now you feel her cooldowns are big and chasing your allies feels weird instead of looking at the enemies.

 

[Kenai]

And fought against Fizz, my allies just gathered around me for the aura buff so fizz just do his R on me, guess Sona is a big no against AOE after all. right now Sona feels so limited with her time auras now you feel her cooldowns are big and chasing your allies feels weird instead of looking at the enemies.

If you try to play Sona the same way as before it's probably going to feel like a nerf even if it's not. All of her passive effects which were really hard to "counter" and really hard to balance got baked into active presses.

That being said, I'm not quite sure if I like the combined weaknesses of being super squishy + not having an escape outside R stun + needing to be fairly close to matter. I messed around in lane with one a bit and she felt better during the laning phase but was more risky in a teamfight.

 

[zkylon]

max q, buy red trinket, and fnatic all dem bushes

 

[Leezard]

I dunno what to think about Sona yet, but she seems ok, at least.

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/1598554524/21673252

 

[Newt]

Guys help

I'm trying to figure out which item I should rush on Twitch first, because what I'm doing isn't working now. So far I've been rushing BotRK first, but I'm on a bad tilt against the increasing bursty meta (Draven and Annie come on). Being forced to get Greaves as my 2nd item instead of Youmuu's hurts but I'm constantly running for my life.

What are the benefits of IE, BT, and BotRK for being rushed first?

Draven and Annie aren't meta botlane champions right now. Don't rush BT unless you're super behind. BoTRK is the best to rush out of the 3, but only works well on low ranged champs. IE is the go to if you want a strong midgame power spike.

 

[zkylon]

u should try spellthief

new sona scales much better with ap

 

[Moodmon]

Need to play a few more Sona games. She still feels pretty much the same, the W shield is great went grouped as everyone gets it. Anyone know if the Q aura is a single time thing, or does it apply to every ally auto attack if they remain in the aura? Latter would seem op but I'm not sure which one is true.

 

[Leezard]

u should try spellthief

new sona scales much better with ap

Yeah, I hesitated for a while before I bought something in the start. Spellthief might indeed be a good choice.

 

[Blizzard]

Yeah, I hesitated for a while before I bought something in the start. Spellthief might indeed be a good choice.

Try deathcap too. I think Sona might be cute in a hat. Make sure to properly accessorize with shoes.

 

[Leezard]

Try deathcap too. I think Sona might be cute in a hat. Make sure to properly accessorize with shoes.

No, I want to be tanky

 

[Ghost is Bad]

Need to play a few more Sona games. She still feels pretty much the same, the W shield is great went grouped as everyone gets it. Anyone know if the Q aura is a single time thing, or does it apply to every ally auto attack if they remain in the aura? Latter would seem op but I'm not sure which one is true.

i think its for every ally which is why this rework looks pretty redonk.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Yes, MOBAs are unique particularly in the sense that they have significant PvE content, which is less fun for me generally and would be particularly boring if it were "defensive."

I LIKE defensive PvP, though. I absolutely love survival and defensive strategies. Part of the reason I love dominion so much is that I've risen to the top of the ranks playing tanks who take forever to kill (Leona/Rammus/Mundo going full Armor/MR/CDR).

0/30/0 Alistar with nothing but defensive runes and Exhaust / Garrison is the biggest defensive asshole on the block in Dominion. If everything alligns, you have the ability to prevent single-handedly 3 or even 4 opposing players from capping the tower because your fat behind is borderline immovable. Hopefully long enough for the rest of your team to back you up or capture another tower elsewhere. It's hysterical.

Speaking of defensive PvP though, that's why I tend to gravitate towards jungle Trundle on Summoner's Rift because once he has some CDR and max rank Pillar, he can easily control the flow of a teamfight / objective control unless the enemy team is really mobile. Alistar's also really good at protecting towers and your glass cannons if you don't tunnel vision on his Headbutt / Pulverize combo, and a skilled Anivia is still a big roadblock if she's in a comp that suits her.

So I learned how to Swain in Dominion. Now I just need to learn how to not get matched with the dumbest teammates in existence.

Could always play Nidalee / Lux / Ziggs / Jayce / Xerath / Vel'koz to take advantage of said stupidity, with the latter two being my favorites. Provided your teammates are a little on the beefy side and can draw a fight out instead of blowing up instantly like a Yi would if pounced on. That way you can just safely poke away from a distance and the enemy'll realize too late that it should've been the squishy way in the back they should've been looking out for.