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[Nekofrog]

you can't afford to give away dragons early against trist either as that's just giving her free lategame

trist is fucked dude, she needs to go


this is kind of why i hate the idea of "late game" champions

like basically your whole team is depending on one guy that might not be yourself to a) pick something that counters that other champion hard and b) plays it really well to the point the trist or ryze or whatever is completely shut down. and the ryze can just get camped by the jungler and then there's nothing you can do

that's not so cool imo

risk vs reward

late game comps have a place. you're sacrificing your early/mid presence to become unstoppable late... but only if you are GOOD ENOUGH to survive to late game. just being a late game champ doesn't guarantee "gg we win because im late game", otherwise vayne and trist would have a 100% winrate.

if you get crushed as a lategame hyper carry without ever getting to your lategame status it's because you failed at playing to with your limitations.

 

[CRS]

except if you have a corki or a lucian or anyone else who's good at bullying doing their job and bullying her so hard that they bring a B.F sword or sheen/phage to said fight, trist will never do that.

But an early game means little to nothing now. Your early lead can be thrown in an instant and the longer the game drags out, the shorter your window to win.

 

[brian!]

also almost every adc can clean up low targets
trist isn't that weak at midgame she still has items and an atspd steroid, tho she has less power than a lot of ppl

but at the same time kog is strong basically all the time

 

[Nekofrog]

But an early game means little to nothing now. Your early lead can be thrown in an instant and the longer the game drags out, the shorter your window to win becomes.

one of the most stated and one of the most factually incorrect things about season 4. they made it less snowbally. they didn't give the losing early game team a free pass.

 

[le bip]

no skin 4 u

maybe if I have time to ranked again and get gold

you're slightly less of a moron than the majority of solo q so I'm ok duoing with you

just make sure you hit your bubbles unlike the other day 8)

Damn, to think that I duo with him because he's slightly more of a moron

 

[pigeon]

I'd much rather give Tristana four kills at dragon at 14 minutes than Draven, and he's way better at actually getting those kills.

 

[brian!]

yall probably shouldnt give an ad 4 kills

 

[Mothman91]

I like gettin quadras with corki. Makes me getting my TF/IE fast.

 

[CRS]

one of the most stated and one of the most factually incorrect things about season 4. they made it less snowbally. they didn't give the losing early game team a free pass.

I'm not saying the losing team gets a free pass, but dominating during the lane phase doesn't always guarantee a win.

 

[brian!]

a lot of ppl dont know what to do with leads it's tru
and yah they changed how ridiculous snowballing was before

 

[zkylon]

risk vs reward

late game comps have a place. you're sacrificing your early/mid presence to become unstoppable late... but only if you are GOOD ENOUGH to survive to late game. just being a late game champ doesn't guarantee "gg we win because im late game", otherwise vayne and trist would have a 100% winrate.

if you get crushed as a lategame hyper carry without ever getting to your lategame status it's because you failed at playing to with your limitations.

i'm literally saying late game comps shouldn't have a place

like it's shit design that some champions are like ok i wasn't completely shutdown by minute 30 so it's gg

you can have different scaling and different power curves but the way it's handled in league is awful

 

[Nekofrog]

i'm literally saying late game comps shouldn't have a place

like it's shit design that some champions are like ok i wasn't completely shutdown by minute 30 so it's gg

you can have different scaling and different power curves but the way it's handled in league is awful

that's the beauty of this game (other than nami i mean T_T )

certain team comps have certain win conditions

your job is to make sure your team reaches their win conditions while also doing whatever you can to roadblock the enemy teams win condition

also i feel like we should have a better defined time stamp for early/mid/late. no way a 30 minute late game champ who has been stomped early game is going to suddenly turn into a monster

 

[brian!]

they have an advantage at late game it doesn't mean they won already, it most of the time means one of your win conditions has changed

dam jinx nekofrog

 

[Nekofrog]

rotations rotations rotations win condition rotations

 

[zkylon]

that's the thing tho, you have to stomp late game champions, you can't just beat them

that's awful, you're winning for like 25 minutes even if it's not a 20-2 stomp and suddenly they have a couple rods stacked and break second item and you have to do a monumental effort to beat them

like you're acting like surviving lane with tristana or ryze is hard

 

[brian!]

i meant to write wind conditions

you don't have to stomp them you just have to get an item advantage and stop playing in a way that lets them sit around csing
i mean
i have to say it's not ez for the typical league player so i can see an argument for it not being very fun
but u can just ban it, w/e
it's not unfair

some ppl have this idea that if you do well in lane you deserve to win which is ridic

 

[CRS]

Early: 0 - 15
Mid: 15 - 35
Late: 35 - ∞

?

that's the thing tho, you have to stomp late game champions, you can't just beat them

that's awful, you're winning for like 25 minutes even if it's not a 20-2 stomp and suddenly they have a couple rods stacked and break second item and you have to do a monumental effort to beat them

like you're acting like surviving lane with tristana or ryze is hard

Yeah, going even with a hyper carry means you're still losing in the long run. Getting a kill or two doesn't mean much.

 

[Einbroch]

i'm literally saying late game comps shouldn't have a place

like it's shit design that some champions are like ok i wasn't completely shutdown by minute 30 so it's gg

you can have different scaling and different power curves but the way it's handled in league is awful

You're saying two different things, though. Late game comps should totally have a place, but as it is right now, they're just not implemented correctly. The issue is actually in a few champions. Tristana is too safe and carries too hard late game. Lucian is too much of a bully early and still can carry late game. These are a few examples. Why pick someone like Vayne, who can really turn into a crazy late game carry, when Tristana is so much safer and can carry just as hard? Why pick Draven, who is a great early bully, when he doesn't scale as hard as a Lucian?

It's not awful, but it's not perfect. Of course, this is almost impossible to balance perfectly. It's so freakin' meta that even if it was perfectly balanced, tweaking a few items or introducing a new champion would throw it way out of whack.

The point of this post is...fuck Tristana.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Thinking about trying Nunu jungle in solo queue (getting bored with Sej). How is he? From what I've read he's more of a support jungler (can't really carry) and with a Sightstone he counter jungles really well.

 

[Stone Ocean]

The point of this post is...fuck Tristana.

I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message

 

[Pancakes]

Managed to snag a smash demo code off the begging thread. 1v1 me (at dragon) mothman!

 

[Nekofrog]

Early: 0 - 15
Mid: 15 - 35
Late: 35 - ∞

?

complexity: 70

 

[zkylon]

i just don't think lategame scaling adds anything to the game

it doesn't add depth or fun to just stall games with ziggs while you're waiting for your instawin champion to get three items

 

[Stone Ocean]

complexity: 70

The correct term is CLG EU

 

[brian!]

the problem is champs being really good at all stages of the game
riot's all yeah trist probably gives too much reward
but i mean so does kog and comps that figure in lucian correctly

 

[Wolf Akela]

I really like Naut's new textures.

Akali looks too "beta version" though.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Kog is easier to kill

Unless they're running a double shield comp, in which case bend over

 

[brian!]

i mean trist is just as easy to kill until ~lvl16-18

unless yall still forwarding the everyone pile on the ad method of killing ads

like an out of position dood is an out of position dood

 

[Einbroch]

i just don't think lategame scaling adds anything to the game

it doesn't add depth or fun to just stall games with ziggs while you're waiting for your instawin champion to get three items

It does if it's implemented correctly. This would require a pretty substantial meta shift, though.

If you see the enemy team picking 2+ late game carries, your job is to rush towers ASAP. You pick pushers. Your strategy is PUSH PUSH PUSH. You can't really do that in League, though. Towers deal too much damage. They have an artificial buff so you can't take them down early without a lot of effort. It CAN be exciting, but it's super hard to balance.

It would take way more than Riot is likely willing to change to get it to that point, though, so I agree that if they aren't going to go that route there should be less extremes in early and late game strength.

 

[brian!]

like when i started playing league, people in draft would think about the opponent and ally picks and pick accordingly, but now it's like w/e

 

[zkylon]

kog is kind of op right now too i guess, but he'll be dealt with when it's his time

like the one thing about trist is that everyone hates her

i feel like that's good reason to rip her to shreds <3

 

[Bacon]

Thinking about trying Nunu jungle in solo queue (getting bored with Sej). How is he? From what I've read he's more of a support jungler (can't really carry) and with a Sightstone he counter jungles really well.

Take all the enemies buffs

 

[Nekofrog]

I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message

no you're not

i have substantial evidence that can disprove this

 

[brian!]

he's got ur birth certificate

it's pretty tuff to balance ads i dunno why they thought equalizing ad amounts was a good idea

but it'll probably all be changed in season 5

im not into bandwagon h4te on champs but i also understand the need for some sort of punching bag for ppl living the reality of playing league of legends prtty constantly

 

[zkylon]

i'm a hipster trist hater as i've always hated ap trist

 

[Ferrio]

like when i started playing league, people in draft would think about the opponent and ally picks and pick accordingly, but now it's like w/e

Ya, early game was a lot more serious so if you had a bad matchup your were F'ed.

 

[brian!]

well i mean more like
ppl would actively say things in champ select like we have to keep jax or nasus down as like some sort of mission for the team and pick accordingly

now its like haha i kinda feel like playing x right now, wadafa jax is op

ads have it pretty ruff right now anyway id say

 

[Kotetsu534]

The only thing I notice people commenting on champ selects is "we need a tank" (usually when they've locked in Yi jungle or Riven top)... which isn't really true, what is usually meant is that we need an initiator, that could come from any role.

 

[brian!]

it might have to do with the player base doubling since i started playing tho

 

[zkylon]

that's cos riot has moved away from games being decided at champ select which is awesome

 

[brian!]

but the thread tells me otherwise???????????????????????????????

 

[Kotetsu534]

Doublelift was, I think, correct (for once) in saying that the 4.9 AD carry itemisation changes were bad for the role on the simple basis that Tristana vs. Kog'Maw is not more fun to watch or play than early game bullies like Draven or Graves, highly mobile carries like Ezreal or Corki, or seat-of-the-pants splitpush duelists like Vayne. Especially in the case of Tristana, there's not a whole lot to get excited about (people might cheer for Tristana pentas, but they're often a result of champion dynamics more than player skill, certainly much less so than during the old Ezreal/Corki meta back in season 2, where it was very clear which AD carry understood how to effectively teamfight better). Kog'Maw actually requires significant mechanical ability and tactical understanding to play efficiently, but it's hard to appreciate unless you know how to play him and are watching him intently (whereas it's easy to appreciate an amazing Vayne or Ezreal play).

I definitely think AD carry is a role that is in a bad spot, not in terms of their effect on the game, but in terms of offering strategic depth and opportunities for expressing skill, as Riot would say.

 

[brian!]

i shoot da targets closes to me

i actually kinda enjoy watching rotations now tho..
thx korea......

chauster looks pretty excited about this tristana play too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkoynj_syq8

 

[zkylon]

but the thread tells me otherwise???????????????????????????????

doesn't mean it's all gone, you can see specially in competitive how bad pick/ban phases are super important (remember that tragic nien game where he looks crushed when he sees the enemy comp?) but rito doesn't want the whole: "they picked tristana so i pick draven and crush her in lane"

i really agree with that vision for the game, even if it's not quite there yet

also i do think it's fine to be outpicked and whatnot since pick/ban phase is part of the fun but it shouldn't be necessarily be such a determinant thing, specially in yolo q

Doublelift was, I think, correct (for once) in saying that the 4.9 AD carry itemisation changes were bad for the role on the simple basis that Tristana vs. Kog'Maw is not more fun to watch or play than early game bullies like Draven or Graves, highly mobile carries like Ezreal or Corki, or seat-of-the-pants splitpush duelists like Vayne. Especially in the case of Tristana, there's not a whole lot to get excited about (people might cheer for Tristana pentas, but they're often a result of champion dynamics more than player skill, certainly much less so than during the old Ezreal/Corki meta back in season 2, where it was very clear which AD carry understood how to effectively teamfight better). Kog'Maw actually requires significant mechanical ability and tactical understanding to play efficiently, but it's hard to appreciate unless you know how to play him and are watching him intently (whereas it's easy to appreciate an amazing Vayne or Ezreal play).

I definitely think AD carry is a role that is in a bad spot, not in terms of their effect on the game, but in terms of offering strategic depth and opportunities for expressing skill, as Riot would say.

i really don't think ad champions or items are all that bad right now, it's mostly that the role is pretty shit in that they're mostly picked in order of strength rather than "strategic value"

like there's nothing like picking ori vs picking ahri mid, or nami vs thresh

then again this is mostly true for top and jungle too, specially in competitive

(edit: mid and support aren't that great either but i feel like they're the two best roles in this regard)

 

[brian!]

well now in solo q ppl just copy bans and picks anyway

I actually do think the game is less polarized than it used to be and you can win with "inferior" comps in solo q pretty frequently

but at the same time yeah, i don't really expect there to be a large champ pool at worlds or anything

 

[zkylon]

sure, in yolo q everything goes

 

[DeadNames]

I agree, delete tristana.

 

[Kotetsu534]

I think the competitive top meta is in the healthiest spot it's been since... the era of Olaf/Jax/Irelia at the end of S2? Admittedly, that isn't saying much since there was a year of Shen/Zac and then Renekton/Shyvana/Mundo, but it's not too awful right now.

Competitive jungle is so sad. S2 era was better in some ways - no gold, but there were champions other than Kha, Nunu, Lee and Elise. Solo queue jungling is fine though.

 

[Wolf Akela]

remember that tragic nien game where he looks crushed when he sees the enemy comp?

Wait where?

 

[Nekofrog]

you have an aatrox avatar

your opinion vote has been disregarded

edit: top lane only looks healthy right now because it isn't restricted completely to 3 champions and only 3 champions

it's still pretty bad now with rejected ap mages being toplaners