I don't mind it. I think that silence is a bigger annoyance, to be honest. Silences and suppresses are the worst.
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League of Legends |OT8| Goodbye, Promos.
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I don't mind it. I think that silence is a bigger annoyance, to be honest. Silences and suppresses are the worst.
Stone Ocean
Member
If a champion is completely invalidated by a single item then he/she needs a new kit.
Why do you say that?
Like I said. I have no problem with Grievous Wounds in itself. It provides counterplay to healing. But when it's on an item that is extremely good, it becomes a problem.
Was this the case before the Mana changes?
Were Vlad/Swain/Aatrox/Mundo*/Soraka/Volibear THAT oppressive?
It's the only thing that stops those champs from being overpowered though. If there's no threat of the grievous wounds as a counter, they're just impossibly oppressive.
Stone Ocean
Member
Grievous Wounds is hardly the reason Morello's is overpowered right now. It's a good thing to have, but people aren't buying it for the passive. Making Grievous Wounds harder to get will just mean Mundo and friends can't be nowhere near as good as they are right now, it wouldn't solve anything.
GW still has no place being on a rush item. It should be a situational purchase at best.
Stone Ocean
Member
That's Riot's fault for borking mana regen itemization.
Fact is, some items are extremely powerful against certain champions. QSS against Zed or Fizz and Zhonya's against pretty much every burst damage character. You can wreck a single champ's main burst or main defensive stat with a single item, but that's why you have 4 other teammates out there.
Stone Ocean
Member
QSS and Zhonya's don't completely nulify Fizz and Zed because they can kill you just as easily with just their base kits. Now compare that to buying Zhonya's against Fiora.
That's the difference between having a decent and a shitty kit.
Morello's isn't being bought as a counter to heal mechanics. It's being bought because it's a terrifically efficient item before its passive is even accounted for.
When Mundo was top lane meta, was anyone buying Morello's or Executioners, or picking champs like Miss Fortune as a counter in teamfights? No. Any champions rush executioner's calling vs. Vlad top? No. Anyone rushing to buy executioner's to stop an fed ADC who has BT? No. And most damning, was grievous wounds an important effect when stupid shit like 30%+ life steal off items, or old S2 WotA used to exist? No.
The healing mechanics in this game are already 90% balanced around the idea that the opposing players won't have grievous wounds and that trend has been going on since early S2. Riot may as well finish what they started and end the charade.
Stone Ocean
Member
You are forgetting Ignite exists. In every game with Mundo and co you're guaranteed at the very least one Ignite on the enemy team if they don't suck and that has been the only viable GW option until Morello's because other items sucked balls, but those champions were very much balanced around Ignite existing - hello Lanewick.
So healing mechanics are balanced around a 5s effect with a 210s cooldown? That's terribly unconvincing.
And no, Lanewick isn't balanced around ignite either. If he was, he'd have some sort of uptick in popularity as more and more tops laners picked up TP. He didn't. He's balanced around mana costs and raw healing numbers.
Stone Ocean
Member
What's stopping top laners from taking Ignite if they see a Lanewick lol
Those 5 seconds should be enough to deal with bursts of healing/draining. If you can't Ignite a Mundo ult it becomes a whole different match up, as his rise as a top laner showed, now imagine if he didn't have to worry about that in teamfights? Grievous Wounds are not ignorable, they're the only thing keeping drain tanks and lifesteal from becoming overbearing without making said mechanics garbage and though it's a shitty solution removing it would make too much of a mess to be worth the trouble.
Those 5 seconds should be enough to deal with bursts of healing/draining. If you can't Ignite a Mundo ult it becomes a whole different match up, as his rise as a top laner showed, now imagine if he didn't have to worry about that in teamfights? Grievous Wounds are not ignorable, they're the only thing keeping drain tanks and lifesteal from becoming overbearing without making said mechanics garbage and though it's a shitty solution removing it would make too much of a mess to be worth the trouble.
PhillipCostigan
Member
I think they've said before that grievous wounds exists to keep champions like Mundo, Vlad and Swain in check, as well as other sustainy champions.
I wouldn't like to see a world where grievous wounds doesn't exist simply because of those champions, despite it being a mechanic I don't really like. It's a hamfisted mechanic but one that's necessary until they make a pass at champions like that and do some large scale reworks.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
If they do remove it one, they'd better add actually inexpensive items (like an Elixir or Trinket) that do provide a healing debuff and retune champs with a focus on healing accordingly.
Because they can actually retain their potential map presence with Teleport by thinking logically, namely pushing Topwick's shit in due to his inability to quickly push minions back when forced under his tower.
Stone Ocean
Member
Nothing wrong with it, though Shiv/PD should be better in most cases.
LOL
i mostly agree but it would be such a huge undertaking
like what do you buff in fizz if you remove grievous wounds? or ignite? how do you make mundo stoppable?
it's very complicated imo and i don't think grievous wounds is so problematic
not really, zed gets invalidated by qss/zhonyas and his kit is still pretty awesome
aatrox has bruiser problems, morellos meta is just a small dent in his already beat up state
no, or else no one would buy it like they did with executioner's calling
it makes no sense to buy an item only because grievous wounds. no one will ever do it and that's just ruining the item
right now morellos' cost effectiveness is messed up and imo athene's still needs more buffs. when that changes it might be a bit more uncommon, which is what you want
beat in mind that morellos has a number of conditions for it to apply grievous wounds. you need to be <40% health and it's conditioned by cooldowns (even ziggs' 40% q has a lot more cooldown than an adc basic attack)
This is pretty much my feel on the whole thing. Grievous Wounds on an item has a place in the game as much as Zhonya's stasis or QSS, the problem with it is that you aren't passing up on anything to get it. They might as well throw it on Last Whisper too if they're keeping it on cheap awesome items. It'll get sorted out in the next patch or so.
Stone Ocean
Member
Like I said before, Zed isn't invalidated by QSS/Zhonya's, his ult is. He can still work with his base kit.
yea but i missed this entire page when i made the post lol
Morellonomicon only applies grievous wounds for 4 seconds if the enemy champion is below 40% health. If you stay above 40% health, you can heal all you want.
If anything, I sort of wish there were an AD option for grievous wounds since you are left with ignite or requiring an AP champion if you are trying to counter specific healing champions. Miss Fortune is an exception.
If anything, I sort of wish there were an AD option for grievous wounds since you are left with ignite or requiring an AP champion if you are trying to counter specific healing champions. Miss Fortune is an exception.
Varus/Tristana can do that too.
Those are a bit more constrained though. Tristana has a 5-second grievous wounds window on a 16-second cooldown. Varus requires healing enemies to get stuck on the wound zoune, though of course he can try to hit them with his ult to facilitate that.
Certainly, though most of the times you want to suppress healing, it is during very specific circumstances (e.g. mundo ult). Tristana E is good for that. Varus E is the most difficult to use, yeah.
OcarinaOfDoom
Member
Welp, just played a norms and went 38-3 on lb.
J4.
Stone Ocean
Member
Which is the cleaner and best long term option.
Like...is it though? It's pretty easy to spot which champions would benefit greatly benefit from this.
Riot was able to give supports gold and retune every single support to start S4 with pretty good success. There was some shake out (e.g. Lulu going mid which may have happened anyways going by all the nerfs she ended up getting) but it worked out pretty well, and that was a bigger change frankly than removing grievous wounds.
It's not like you'd do this change in a vacuum. You run this internally, keep tabs on the presumed biggest offenders (Swain, Mundo, Aatrox, Vlad, Warwick, etc.) and put this on Live along with nerfs to those champions' sustain. From there you monitor things, keeping an eye on those "high priority" champions and also on champions who might end benefiting more than initially thought (Garen, Moakai, Irelia, Zac, Renekton, etc.)
I honestly think you could have all this shit ironed out in less than 4 months. Releasing this sort of change in the preseason basically means having it 90% solved by the time February the following year rolled around. I might have a skewed view because I don't really play any sustain-centric champions (unless Voli and Xin count, I guess) but 4 months of pain for a healthier game is something I'd definitely put up with.
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Frankly, grievous wounds is to Fizz as attack speed reduction was to Lee Sin - lots of hidden and difficult to quantify power. His passive is huge considering players' instinct is to immediately pop a potion when low after a trade. I always think the best place to hit problematic champs first is in their hidden power, removing grievous wounds is the best place to start on Fizz as far as I'm concerned.
Azir is stupid strong right now. His late game is insane and you're dead if he ever gets ahead of you in lane.
Stone Ocean
Member
The support rework was this whole class of champions that suffered from being ward mules and were picked every single game. Possibly disrupting the entire game for 4 months so half a dozen champions that aren't even bad or unviable besides Aatrox can be slightly less annoying to play with and around is simply a waste of resources that are best used elsewhere. You can spot the champions that need said reworks but all of them besides possibly Mundo would need entirely new kits and that's a huge undertaking - hell, even as much as giving them a couple new skills takes forever to iron out, just look at Riot's rework speed.
It'll make the game healthier but there's very little gain for too much of an effort.
it seems like there can never be more than 3 champions in the top lane at a time that are considered "good"
4 if you're european cause then you play aatrox at the pro level for some reason
j4 is jungle
i don't know how 4 months of work don't represent a huge amount of work for you
that's a lot of designer time spent on a relatively minor mechanic that it's only marginally detrimental to the game and isn't really shaping how the game is played. mundo was still played in spite of grievous wounds. healing supports are still pretty strong. swain and maokai and whoever are fairly meta. adcs still buy tons of lifesteal. it's not a huge problem and it's not the reason no one plays aatrox or zac or whatever
first finish fixing the jungle, get to top laners and adcs, and then we'll talk about 3-4 months of pain over silly minor mechanics
I was very happy those few months when she wasn't around...
SenorArdilla
Member
Any specific reason why Leblanc is suddenly getting picked up or is it just FotM?
she has been stacking minor buffs over a few patches now, stat changes mean people have lower stats in early levels (general buffs to assassins), mana changes + athene's being pretty shit right now is a general nerf to all mages and morellos+dfg is pretty op
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1673545531/39940?tab=overview
Easiest game of my life.
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zkylon said:
Pick one. It can't possibly be both. It can't be a huge undertaking while being a minor mechanic only affecting a few champions. Hell, if anything your second post makes makes the argument for my position. You hit the nail on the head! It doesn't affect anything right now, just ditch the fucking thing and get it over with!
dude, cmon, i tried to answer your post with respect and i know i'm usually shit at talking but pls don't twist my words
grievous wounds in terms of game health is not a big problem, it's a minor problem. that there's no hurry to remove grievous wounds doesn't mean it wouldn't have an impact to remove it. there are champions balanced around it, as is ignite.
fixing grievous wounds is not a priority since the game is not much worse from it existing, so the time that would take to fix it would better off spent doing other things, like fixing top lane or adc role.
it's not the same as people whining about rito moving the health potions back to the center while there are huge problems in the game. that's a thing a ui programmer does in 5 minutes. this is something that takes months of planning, balancing, etc.
Wolf Akela
Member
AP mids don't pick up MR anymore.
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