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League of Legends |OT8| Goodbye, Promos.
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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Let's be honest here. AD TF still deals loads of damage in the late game if you have a typical adc build, the main problem is his range and lack of scaling on abilities. His mid and early game are much shittier than par as well.
The single condition for AD TF to win a duel against other lategame adcs is that he quickly gets into their range and hits a stun. If he hits a stun without being half-dead already, it is likely that he will kill the opponent simply by being able to deal damage during a period of time before they can answer it.
TF will lose if he takes significant damage before he hits his stun, or if he does not hit his stun at all. This will occur in a couple of different scenarios:
TF always losing if the enemy adc has QSS is a good tell of the matchup.
The single condition for AD TF to win a duel against other lategame adcs is that he quickly gets into their range and hits a stun. If he hits a stun without being half-dead already, it is likely that he will kill the opponent simply by being able to deal damage during a period of time before they can answer it.
TF will lose if he takes significant damage before he hits his stun, or if he does not hit his stun at all. This will occur in a couple of different scenarios:
- The enemy adc doesn't know how to orb walk/ attack move to stay out of his range.
- TF uses his ult next to the enemy with gold card ready and the enemy adc can't get out of his range or position to cc tf. Most adcs have the tools to do that.
- Sivir fails to block the stun
- The adc does not have QSS, cleanse or Banshee's.
TF always losing if the enemy adc has QSS is a good tell of the matchup.
I'd be interested to see how a late game AD TF fared against a late game MF. With her W and a Phantom Dancer, she can attack ridiculously fast and shred with crtics coming from the IE. If she has a BT, the life steal would definitely give her the edge if the initial burst didn't kill her.
Edit: I usually get a Banshee's Veil on MF. So yeah, never mind, I'd murder that TF.
Edit: I usually get a Banshee's Veil on MF. So yeah, never mind, I'd murder that TF.
Comparing 1v1 duels late game is pretty pointless when grouping is such a major part of the game at that stage. Because TF can only stun one target at a time he's pretty helpless up close in team fights, even if you are quick on yellow draws.
Kiting/orb walking is interchangeable verbiage in League.
Yeah, pretty much. I've played dota so I know what it means in that context, but the term has been used before like this in this thread. As long as everyone know what each other is saying it should be fine.
This is also a major point against AD TF. Range is extremely important during real late game, even more important than in the non-realistic 1v1 late game.
Her ult is really good though.
Is it? I think the range is the only redeeming factor. It just doesn't seem to do much damage. But I may be using it wrong.
The old man dota player in me has a hard time letting that slide though because kiting and orb walking are two completely different things.
Kiting is just using spells and abilities to keep the person chasing you at bay to kill them while you stay safe.
Orb walking was casting the orb spell (drow frost arrow or viper poison) instead of setting it to auto cast to allow you to animation cancel as soon as it was cast to allow you to chase the person you are casting it on which can be used offensivly as well as defensively.
Kiting is just defensive where as orb walking was used also mostly offensive.
They really aren't the same lol.
But if everyone wants to use that term I will concede (yet still cringe when its used improperly)
Kiting is just using spells and abilities to keep the person chasing you at bay to kill them while you stay safe.
Orb walking was casting the orb spell (drow frost arrow or viper poison) instead of setting it to auto cast to allow you to animation cancel as soon as it was cast to allow you to chase the person you are casting it on which can be used offensivly as well as defensively.
Kiting is just defensive where as orb walking was used also mostly offensive.
They really aren't the same lol.
But if everyone wants to use that term I will concede (yet still cringe when its used improperly)
Make sure to use her W with the ult. It's amazing.
Really the only difference is one is chasing the other is retreating. You do the same thing in lol with certain abilities, and an auto attack is not much different than a manual cast drow arrow anyways.
Wait, I have to activate the W then ult? I just thought it did it automatically.
/embarrass
Once you get some items it does less single target damage than Q+ autos, but the damage is still quite good if you're hitting 3/4 people.
Uhh, no. You don't have to activate it.
It isn't a huge difference. One is manually casting your auto attack canceling it, walking forward repeat. The other is auto attacking, cancelling, walking forward, repeat.
It's the same principle, only in DOTA you have to trigger the on hit skill manually.
Orochinagis
Member
Oh lord, I think I just coordinated the entire team and was writing more than killing, we won because they heard me and ward the shit out the map where I told them to ward.
No, not at the same time, sorry, it sounded like I meant that. W after to keep it rolling.
in dota manually casting toggle spells would allow you to cancel faster
i dunno why someone would get semantic about it in league, you can't even cast toggle spells in this game
I'm well aware of that, but that's an engine difference. The act and purpose are pretty much the same. Dota is a bit more involved because of the manual activation, but both take advantage of animation cancelling and using it to stay in range of your opponent.
In Dota it is indeed a huge difference, especially due to the turning rates that makes it not very useful to orb-walk defensively. Having to turn around all the time to autohit or back is bad for that.
Also fuck orb effects, one of the things I hated in DOTA. The ruleset for what overrode what etc was also stupid, and was a limitation due to the WC3 engine. I was really upset when I learned dota brought all that archaic shit along for the ride. That's not what i imagined from a sequel when playing DOTA 1.
Ashe Q. Muramana. Idk if there's more
Agreed. The old Dota I knew would move away from it and do new stuff. :/ It used to do so much new stuff.
Stone Ocean
Member
It doesn't do much damage early on, but as soon as you get some AD and rank 2 ult it hurts.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Swain's ult counts I think.
Man so much of this new thread consists of random posts and ad tf debates.
What I'm trying to say is lets talk more anivia!
Rito why did you change the way her q cast works? It makes no sense to move her if casting out of range for the way that skill works. You pretty much always want to aim it max range and press q again to pop when you hit your mark. The new auto feels nice but ihave some getting adjustments to make after playing her a ton before the "buff".
Gosh I love that wall.
What I'm trying to say is lets talk more anivia!
Rito why did you change the way her q cast works? It makes no sense to move her if casting out of range for the way that skill works. You pretty much always want to aim it max range and press q again to pop when you hit your mark. The new auto feels nice but ihave some getting adjustments to make after playing her a ton before the "buff".
Gosh I love that wall.
you can press em to toggle them but you cant cast them or maybe there is some technology that im not privy to
You will never match my first match ever as Syndra, I promise, lol. That was a feedfest if I've ever seen one!
/cheer up
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
Why concede? You're not in the wrong about orb walking. Yours is the correct definition, the alternative is a bastardized interpretation. Next you'll bring up the silly notion of "one-shotting an enemy = using your full skill rotation" or worse, pretending that "could/would/should of" is valid!
You can kite with spells. Unless you consider auto attack modifiers "spells", it's really not the same thing.
For example, I can "kite" with Vengar + Rylai, but I can never actually orb walk with him since he has no orbs.
You can orb walk with Clinkz' Searing Arrows, but that wouldn't be kiting. Orb walking implies attacking instead of spells, since orb attacks are effectively normal attacks.
For example, I can "kite" with Vengar + Rylai, but I can never actually orb walk with him since he has no orbs.
Well, technically I can because the idea of orb walking has gone beyond orb effects and can be applied to any kind of continuous auto attack canceling.
You can orb walk with Clinkz' Searing Arrows, but that wouldn't be kiting. Orb walking implies attacking instead of spells, since orb attacks are effectively normal attacks.
Rex posts send me into a blinding rage because of this shit
The easiest way to see the difference between the two terms is this:
You can kite with Anivia's Glacial Storm. Just casting it on top of someone moving in or running away constitutes kiting them. If you don't synchronize it with your other spells, it wouldn't be particularly good kiting, but it'd be kiting nonetheless.
You cannot Orb Walk Glacial Storm. You can animation cancel a lot of her stuff, and really, you need to if you want to be a halfway decent Anivia. Somewhere in her rotation is an argument that what she does is similar to Orb Walking. But unless you're doing something on top of merely pressing R, it's Glacial Storm is not Orb Walking, but it is kiting.
RE: Orbs stacking
HoN tried turning all Orbs on at all times. That didn't turn out so well, and they switched to the current system at some point. It can't be changed without revamping hero/item balance on a large scale, and that doesn't guarantee a better game. A more clear and intuitive game, sure, but not necessarily better. It's like Flash. Not saying Orbs are as critical to Dota 2 balance as Flash is to League, but it's not something to consider lightly. It's grandfathered in, if you will, because the alternative is too much work for too little gain.
You can kite with Anivia's Glacial Storm. Just casting it on top of someone moving in or running away constitutes kiting them. If you don't synchronize it with your other spells, it wouldn't be particularly good kiting, but it'd be kiting nonetheless.
You cannot Orb Walk Glacial Storm. You can animation cancel a lot of her stuff, and really, you need to if you want to be a halfway decent Anivia. Somewhere in her rotation is an argument that what she does is similar to Orb Walking. But unless you're doing something on top of merely pressing R, it's Glacial Storm is not Orb Walking, but it is kiting.
RE: Orbs stacking
HoN tried turning all Orbs on at all times. That didn't turn out so well, and they switched to the current system at some point. It can't be changed without revamping hero/item balance on a large scale, and that doesn't guarantee a better game. A more clear and intuitive game, sure, but not necessarily better. It's like Flash. Not saying Orbs are as critical to Dota 2 balance as Flash is to League, but it's not something to consider lightly. It's grandfathered in, if you will, because the alternative is too much work for too little gain.
Stop basing your tf arguments purely on your own experiences Heavy.
Youre arguing with plats and diamonds who have a lot more game knowledge than you.
Ad tf can not duel most adcs because he has 0, literally 0 steroids or scaling damage skills he can actively use in a fight. Zero!
Youre completely reliant on hitting a gold card to win and its easy as hell to avoid yellow cards. You have to be a complete idiot if you see tf run pick a card and still run up to him.
Plus the fact all adcs have a way to kite tf with either an escape skill or a slow.
Im all up for you playing the champ in an unconventional way but stop spreading wrong information. Especially when there are people who read the thread for advice.
Youre arguing with plats and diamonds who have a lot more game knowledge than you.
Ad tf can not duel most adcs because he has 0, literally 0 steroids or scaling damage skills he can actively use in a fight. Zero!
Youre completely reliant on hitting a gold card to win and its easy as hell to avoid yellow cards. You have to be a complete idiot if you see tf run pick a card and still run up to him.
Plus the fact all adcs have a way to kite tf with either an escape skill or a slow.
Im all up for you playing the champ in an unconventional way but stop spreading wrong information. Especially when there are people who read the thread for advice.
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