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[SouthernDragon]

Far from it.
I also don't like the condescending attitude they're showing.

You'll find this a lot in both communities. Denying is hardcore and cool, the equivalent of "parrying" for the Street Fighter community.

It's the exact same mechanic, but applied to your own creeps. If you can suspend your disbelief enough that in a battle, you only attack an enemy when they're about to die, I'm sure you can suspend it enough to kill your own suffering allies.

It's a matter of principles at this point. I see it as dragging out and slowing down the game, and being inherently frustrating. I hate the concept of competing for last hits on the same minion as my opponent, especially as a melee character vs a ranged. I'd be fucked.

I only buy champs when they go on sale. I also buy runes with them because you are basically forced to.

Are you buying Tier 1, 2, or 3 runes? You're supposed to get Tier 1 runes to test out a build, then flesh it out with Tier 3. A full Tier 1 set gives you 60% of a Tier 3 at a tenth of the cost. Don't get Tier 2.

Also, there are generic rune builds which work on most champs of a certain archetype. You don't have to build extremely specific rune pages for champs outside of a few that require it, and even then you could still do fine with a generic page...

 

[Neki]

You'll find this a lot in both communities. Denying is hardcore and cool, the equivalent of "parrying" for the Street Fighter community.


It's a matter of principles at this point. I see it as dragging out and slowing down the game, and being inherently frustrating. I hate the concept of competing for last hits on the same minion as my opponent, especially as a melee character vs a ranged. I'd be fucked.

Dragging out and slowing the game? How?

And that's the trade off of being a melee character vs a ranged. Melee and ranged characters both have advantages, and disadvantages. And if you're running two melee characters against two ranged in a lane, that's your fault.

 

[Card Boy]

Serious question: Why do you need all the champs? When you played DotA, how many champs were you proficient with, and how many did you master?

I see this complaint all the time, and I still don't get it. It's the illusion of choice. The majority of players won't master more than 15% of the cast of a MOBA game, and might achieve proficiency with 25%-50% simply because there isn't enough time.

It's not an illusion of choice, it is choice. I want the choice, i don't see why anyone would be against choice. All the champs should cost $30 max, not $500 plus (if using 650RP/$5 Riot average)

Lets say CS 3 had 100 weapons, and you had to buy them will either real money or money earned from in game. Would you say "why do you need all the weapons? When you played CS:S, how many weapons were you proficient with, and how many did you master?"

Sorry for the bad analogy buts It's irrelevant if i going to master a champ or weapon or not, sometimes i want to mix it up every once and awhile. I shouldn't have to wait weeks or months for a champ to become available.

Before anyone says 'if you don't like it, don't play it', SHADAP YA FACE!

 

[Chinese Electric Batman]

Errr...they can still support the other heroes around them.

Also, I don't like the idea that one guy should be getting to be powerful while everyone else supports him. In LoL, pretty much everyone gets to be powerful.

 

[delirium]

The biggest aspect of denying is allowing you to dictate where the creeps are fighting. Without it, every time you harass, you push your lane so its worthless to do so unless you are completely dominating your opponent and zoning them out of exp range. Without denying, it makes laning a much more passive experience since if you can't zone them out, every time you harass, you push your lane farther from your tower. With denying, you can still harass and pull your lane back.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Lane control is the best reason I'd see for denying, and is a legitimate concern. I don't know how to address it without denying, though.

It's not an illusion of choice, it is choice. I want the choice, i don't see why anyone would be against choice. All the champs should cost $30 max, not $500 plus (if using 650RP/$5 Riot average)

Lets say CS 3 had 100 weapons, and you had to buy them will either real money or money earned from in game. Would you say "why do you need all the weapons? When you played CS:S, how many weapons were you proficient with, and how many did you master?"

Sorry for the bad analogy buts It's irrelevant if i going to master a champ or weapon or not, sometimes i want to mix it up every once and awhile. I shouldn't have to wait weeks or months for a champ to become available.

Before anyone says 'if you don't like it, don't play it', SHADAP YA FACE!

Er, there are 80 champs and if we assume they are all $5, then it's $400.

And as for the choice thing, I'm starting to see it as being similar to Denying being a contentious issue. I simply don't see the need. The majority of players will not play every character, nor will they see the need to.

The best compromise I can see is making every champion available in a training method. I would be heavily in favor of this so people don't have to wait a month or two for Blitzcrank to be available before putting down 6300 IP for him. Without that, I think that the complaints about not all champions being available have some legitimacy.

 

[Tylahedras]

I'm actually going on to play right now if anyone is interested add me. Name is the same as on GAF.

**and stuck updating, guess it's gonna be a couple minutes**

 

[EviLore]

It's a matter of principles at this point. I see it as dragging out and slowing down the game, and being inherently frustrating. I hate the concept of competing for last hits on the same minion as my opponent, especially as a melee character vs a ranged. I'd be fucked.

It does not at all drag out or slow down the game, that's a bizarre position. As for competing with opponents on every last hit, yes it's difficult and can be frustrating, but again it adds another layer of depth and raises the skill cap for a competitive game.

Are you buying Tier 1, 2, or 3 runes? You're supposed to get Tier 1 runes to test out a build, then flesh it out with Tier 3. A full Tier 1 set gives you 60% of a Tier 3 at a tenth of the cost. Don't get Tier 2.

Also, there are generic rune builds which work on most champs of a certain archetype. You don't have to build extremely specific rune pages for champs outside of a few that require it, and even then you could still do fine with a generic page...

When it comes down to it, the rune system is just there to pressure players into spending RP on champion unlocks so they can save their IP for runes. And it's very good at this. Runes don't do much good for LoL's status as a competitive (or fair) game.

 

[SouthernDragon]

It does not at all drag out or slow down the game, that's a bizarre position. As for competing with opponents on every last hit, yes it's difficult and can be frustrating, but again it adds another layer of depth and raises the skill cap for a competitive game.

Again, total earnestness; how does it not? If there are 12 minions, 6 on each side, and each player denies 3, both sides have just lost 3 minions worth of xp and potential gold, had they landed those hits instead. If denying weren't there, that xp would be credited towards each player, giving them levels faster.

Unless Denying doesn't deny XP, but I was under the impression that it did.

When it comes down to it, the rune system is just there to pressure players into spending RP on champion unlocks so they can save their IP for runes. And it's very good at this. Runes don't do much good for LoL's status as a competitive (or fair) game.

Agreed. It's what I'm doing. I'm ok with Masteries, I'm not as ok with Runes. I wish it were handled differently.

 

[Archie]

Denying gives reduced XP.

 

[Card Boy]

Er, there are 80 champs and if we assume they are all $5, then it's $400.

Your fogetting alot of the champs cost 975 RP which is between 5 and 10 dollars. I was being generous with the $500 cost. Also when i say $500+ it takes into account the future champs that are bound to be released.

 

[Archie]

The full price to unlock every champ right now is ~$260 if you take advantage of both champion bundles.

 

[EviLore]

Again, total earnestness; how does it not? If there are 12 minions, 6 on each side, and each player denies 3, both sides have just lost 3 minions worth of xp and potential gold, had they landed those hits instead. If denying weren't there, that xp would be credited towards each player, giving them levels faster.

Unless Denying doesn't deny XP, but I was under the impression that it did.

Partial exp in HoN.

If you applied these deny mechanics straight into LoL without balancing anything, sure the laning phase could take a little longer on average. You could also set up kills more viably through creep position management, though, instead of the laning phase being extremely passive, which would counteract that. While we're at it we could remove summoner spells, too, to further address the passive laning phase.

Not counting low ELO games where everyone just autoattacks creeps, of course ;b

 

[Neki]

Partial exp in HoN.

If you applied these deny mechanics straight into LoL without balancing anything, sure the laning phase could take a little longer on average. You could also set up kills more viably through creep position management, though, instead of the laning phase being extremely passive, which would counteract that. While we're at it we could remove summoner spells, too, to further address the passive laning phase.

Not counting low ELO games where everyone just autoattacks creeps, of course ;b

everyone on GAF is low elo though, that's all we're doing in game, autoattacking and running flash ghost!

 

[LCGeek]

Errr...they can still support the other heroes around them.

Also, I don't like the idea that one guy should be getting to be powerful while everyone else supports him. In LoL, pretty much everyone gets to be powerful.

In LOL that carry effect isn't harsh but it's still there. No some people just aren't powerful compared to best caster or ad carries. LOL lets you get kills but against tougher or smarter types the lower tiers are steam rolled if you feed enough.

Also you don't want what you mentioned because in organized group rather than one it will be 2-3 if not all. If the team out levels yours the odds are they will have better items as not just stats.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Denying gives reduced XP.

Hmm, thanks. Was it always like this? I thought denying removed XP entirely in the original DotA. Mind you, this was years ago so I admit my knowledge of the details of the denial mechanic are fuzzy.

Regardless, in my example it does slow things down, doesn't it?

Your fogetting alot of the champs cost 975 RP which is between 5 and 10 dollars. I was being generous with the $500 cost. Also when i say $500+ it takes into account the future champs that are bound to be released.

The full price to unlock every champ right now is ~$260 if you take advantage of both champion bundles.

Just ran the numbers, bros.

(((260*9)+(585*22)+(975*49))/7200)*50 = 437.40
Every champion in the game at current prices, if you were to purchase all of them using the most efficient method of acquiring RP. While admittedly not $30, it's not $500+ as is being claimed.

Edit: DERP DERP DERP

I just realized what Archie meant about champion bundles. Yeah, his method is more efficient. You can also get one champion (Tristana) for free, and I believe the first game gives you enough to purchase a 450 IP champion.

Partial exp in HoN.
If you applied these deny mechanics straight into LoL without balancing anything, sure the laning phase could take a little longer on average. You could also set up kills more viably through creep position management, though, instead of the laning phase being extremely passive, which would counteract that. While we're at it we could remove summoner spells, too, to further address the passive laning phase.
Not counting low ELO games where everyone just autoattacks creeps, of course ;b

I don't find this disagreeable, but... how does it make my earlier statement of dragging out games bizarre? The other tweaks would encourage roaming more, and earlier, but skills are generally too weak to kill anyone that early anyways.

 

[LCGeek]

Hmm, thanks. Was it always like this? I thought denying removed XP entirely in the original DotA. Mind you, this was years ago so I admit my knowledge of the details of the denial mechanic are fuzzy.

Regardless, in my example it does slow things down, doesn't it?

Denying was tweaked various times but always there. Originally it was a full denial full xp and gold then it just became full gold and some xp unsure about how much xp. Full denying made dota broke for the vets or high level players. You could deny someone most of the game and be quite a few levels ahead. While I liked the ability to do so unless you spent a lot of time on the game it was insanely broke for new players and more casual types.

The other tweaks would encourage roaming more, and earlier, but skills are generally too weak to kill anyone that early anyways.

You can get first blood before the game even starts in LOL. Bush baits or blue buffs are the easiest spots and it can happen quite easily considering no one has health but damage on certain characters is op lvl1. People hurt even low lvls if they are going for damage it's worse because not even tanks have items to stop it.

 

[delirium]

Denying a creep will give enemy melee heroes 2/3 of the exp and enemy range 1/3 of the exp.

There is more to denying then just trying to last hit your own enemy creep. It's a total game in itself (with last hitting and harassing).

To quote Chu:

It is true a lot of people using this argument has little clue as to what they are actually talking about.
but it is also true that denying dynamic in DotA/*** requires alot more skill than most people think.

At a high level game, denying your own creeps in lane is so important, that it is actually prioritized over killing enemy creeps. There are skills to master, things to consider in this denying dynamic such as holding creep waves, choosing the right move among creep killing/denying/harassing every second (whereas in LoL it would heavily be weighed towards creep killing mostly), and choosing correct last hitting maneuver (simple last hitting, double hit last hitting, spam-s last hitting, fake last hitting, etc etc, this requires combination of last hitting skill and superior mental game). Also, you are able to deny towers in ***, which is crucial.

You won't ever see this level of play in low level pub games, but it is a basic part of the laning phase among competitive players.

 

[EviLore]

I don't find this disagreeable, but... how does it make my earlier statement of dragging out games bizarre? The other tweaks would encourage roaming more, and earlier, but skills are generally too weak to kill anyone that early anyways.

It's bizarre because it's not something I would expect anyone to say if they had actually played a game with denying.

And skills are not at all too weak to get early kills.

 

[Valnen]

What is the support supposed to do in lane without denying? There's not much to support during the laning phase. During the team fights, yes, supports will support, but the reason why laning is so boring in LoL compared to DotA/HoN is because it's so passive without denying, and also because summoner spells basically let you get away with bad positioning and map awareness.

You can harass the enemy heroes.

Also, a certain someone seems to just post things like "lol" or stupid pictures, leading me to believe they're trolling at this point.

People need to get over the fact that some people find LoL to be the better game.

 

[erpg]

To quote Chu:

Do the League of Legends forums really censor the word HoN? Yikes.

 

[delirium]

You can harass the enemy heroes.

Also, a certain someone seems to just post things like "lol" or stupid pictures, leading me to believe they're trolling at this point.

People need to get over the fact that some people find LoL to be the better game.

Except harassing enemy heroes pushes your lane. There is no mechanic in LoL to pull it back thus, unless you are completely dominating your lane, harassing the enemy is a bad thing to do. That's why in most pro-level LoL game, everyone plays so defensive and only go out to last hit.

 

[Drkirby]

Do the League of Legends forums really censor the word HoN? Yikes.

It is a new development, they did it after the boards good spammed with roughly 100 "HoN is $10!!!!" topics. I can't find the picture, but one of the moderators showed the shear bulk of the spam in the Topic Graveyard.

 

[EviLore]

Also, a certain someone seems to just post things like "lol" or stupid pictures, leading me to believe they're trolling at this point.

Yes, I've noticed Chinese Electric Batman is all about one word replies and image macros. He's on his way to a perm if that doesn't change.

People need to get over the fact that some people find LoL to be the better game.

LoL is the better casual game by far, and HoN is the better competitive game by far. There's nothing wrong with having either of those labels, and you can play both casually and competitively, but LoL's much better suited to a pick up game with friends who aren't hardcore into it (relaxed playstyle, low APM requirement, simpler mechanics, cleaner visual style), and HoN is much better suited for skillful competitive play (intense, unforgiving, high skill cap, complex mechanics, stats/replays/clans/etc.).

 

[LCGeek]

LoL is the better casual game by far, and HoN is the better competitive game by far. There's nothing wrong with having either of those labels, and you can play both casually and competitively, but LoL's much better suited to a pick up game with friends who aren't hardcore into it (relaxed playstyle, low APM requirement, simpler mechanics, cleaner visual style), and HoN is much better suited for skillful competitive play (intense, unforgiving, high skill cap, complex mechanics).

Thank you for that point it gets glossed over so much. The casual mode sucks for HON imo and makes go right back to matchmaking without. You can tell LOL was balanced for casual play turn it on for hon and things that weren't broke before are now.

 

[Drkirby]

It is annoying that some people just can't get over that others prefer one game to the other. There are tons of niches for different levels of complexity. For the FPS genre, you have stuff ranging from Call of Duty, Halo, Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, to Arma 2, each having diffident levels of complexity and attracting their own audiences.


Just a question, where does S2 hide their patch notes? I can't for the life of me find any thing.

 

[Shalashaska161]

It is annoying that some people just can't get over that others prefer one game to the other. There are tons of niches for different levels of complexity. For the FPS genre, you have stuff ranging from Call of Duty, Halo, Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, to Arma 2, each having diffident levels of complexity and attracting their own audiences.


Just a question, where does S2 hide their patch notes? I can't for the life of me find any thing.

No one is obviously the best and the others are obviously the worst games ever made. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

Stupidity aside, I am very interested in seeing what exactly Valve plans to do with DOTA 2. There is definitely room in the market for another one of these games, and I think a game that places itself somewhere in between LoL and HoN in terms in hardcoreness could do very well.

 

[LCGeek]

No one is obviously the best and the others are obviously the worst games ever made. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

Stupidity aside, I am very interested in seeing what exactly Valve plans to do with DOTA 2. There is definitely room in the market for another one of these games, and I think a game that places itself somewhere in between LoL and HoN in terms in hardcoreness could do very well.

Valve seems to want to unify a lot of the audience in to something stable for the genre. While S2 and Riot have done their own work I have to agree with whoever said they want a real big company doing this. Riot had their chance with LOL to grab dota types and have but there are somethings at this point that are inexcusable not to have also balance is a joke for them.

 

[Avocado]

Do the League of Legends forums really censor the word HoN? Yikes.

You'd be surprised how much hon advertisement/referral links there is on the LoL forums

 

[delirium]

Just a question, where does S2 hide their patch notes? I can't for the life of me find any thing.

Like in-game or on their website?

No one is obviously the best and the others are obviously the worst games ever made. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

Stupidity aside, I am very interested in seeing what exactly Valve plans to do with DOTA 2. There is definitely room in the market for another one of these games, and I think a game that places itself somewhere in between LoL and HoN in terms in hardcoreness could do very well.

If Dota 2 is going to be a 1:1 copy of Dota (as Valve said it would). I expect Dota 2 to actually be more hardcore than HoN. HoN has soften up a lot of its gameplay when it split from Dota.

 

[Chumly]

I've been enjoying lol a lot but they seriously have the worst servers in the history of fucking games. With all the users and money they are raking in its pathetic they can't make the game run smoothly.

 

[LCGeek]

Like in-game or on their website?

Website usually there is a stick for it. Also when you're in hon usually it has a built in link you click on for more detailed notes or announcements.

 

[Neki]

You can harass the enemy heroes.

Also, a certain someone seems to just post things like "lol" or stupid pictures, leading me to believe they're trolling at this point.

People need to get over the fact that some people find LoL to be the better game.

I like LoL more than HoN right now, but I'm not going to deny that HoN is more competitive/harder because of several reasons, denying being a large part of it. Just because I like a game doesn't mean I can't criticize it.

 

[dimb]

If Dota 2 is going to be a 1:1 copy of Dota (as Valve said it would). I expect Dota 2 to actually be more hardcore than HoN. HoN has soften up a lot of its gameplay when it split from Dota.

I can't see a world where Valve releases a game that doesn't try to appeal to low skill players.

 

[EXGN]

I've played past the lvl 30 mark and still only have 4 champions unlocked with all the ip I have gotten. I even had to buy a champion, what a joke.

What did you spend your IP on? I think it takes the average player ~300 games (assuming a roughly equal number of W/L) to get to 30 and even at 75 IP per game (which doesn't include the win a day bonus and is a quick victory or long loss) that's still like 23,000 IP.

I guess I'm with Southern on the issue of champs. I've been playing for about a year, have 36 champs and 3 pages of top tier runes for all the basic roles and have never spent a cent on League. I also have enough champions to play pretty much any role in the game (ask the GAF players, I play anything from ranged AD to jungle), even if a character or two is banned.

Yes, I guess the option of picking every character out of the gate is nice, but even after a year there are still a number of champions I own that I haven't mastered and even more I haven't even played, but I don't feel compelled to learn everyone.

 

[Tomat]

I used to think denying was stupid.

Then I became a man.

Spoiler

But really, it's the same as last hitting enemy creeps. It's a simple mechanic that's hard to master. Adds something more to do during the lane phase and can really aid your team if done correctly.

 

[Cerepol]

As nice as it is to say they have 15M accounts, that number is a far cry from active accounts, I myself have possession or been in possession of about 23~ or so accounts.

 

[Nome]

I wrote a somewhat lengthy article on the subject of denying here:
http://s2nome.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/denying/

Something a lot of LOL players have pointed out to me is that without denying, players turn more towards zoning (PVP action). It's kind of worth noting that one of our considerations designing HoN is actually to make sure there isn't too much zoning, since zoning usually ends up more frustrating on the receiving end than denying.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Wow, people playing this game ARE insane dicks... lol.

Friend and I had to play with randoms all night; every single game, same story:

1. Every other team member goes on about how they're usually "gods" in their games and literally never get killed.

2. They bitch nonstop instead of playing that you just bought the wrong item and now the rest of the game is pre-destined to fail.

3. When the other team in one game executed a great team rush, one of us complimented them and called it epic. They started to trash us for being sarcastic. When we clarified we meant it, one guy say "LOL. Never had a single person not shit on us in this game. You the first not talk shit."

 

[Neki]

Wow, people playing this game ARE insane dicks... lol.

Friend and I had to play with randoms all night; every single game, same story:

1. Every other team member goes on about how they're usually "gods" in their games and literally never get killed.

2. They bitch nonstop instead of playing that you just bought the wrong item and now the rest of the game is pre-destined to fail.

3. When the other team in one game executed a great team rush, one of us complimented them and called it epic. They started to trash us for being sarcastic. When we clarified we meant it, one guy say "LOL. Never had a single person not shit on us in this game. You the first not talk shit."

oh shit, don't play with me.

 

[LCGeek]

Wow, people playing this game ARE insane dicks... lol.

Friend and I had to play with randoms all night; every single game, same story:

1. Every other team member goes on about how they're usually "gods" in their games and literally never get killed.

2. They bitch nonstop instead of playing that you just bought the wrong item and now the rest of the game is pre-destined to fail.

3. When the other team in one game executed a great team rush, one of us complimented them and called it epic. They started to trash us for being sarcastic. When we clarified we meant it, one guy say "LOL. Never had a single person not shit on us in this game. You the first not talk shit."

This genre has some of the worst jerks, trolls, and douchebags in the history of gaming. You can't do much unless you go full arranged even then it doesn't stop the other team trolling you.

1. Ignore em, the best players rarely talk like that I find feeders and scrubs do what you mention.

2. All the time I use vayne with a wits end and get yelled it, by the time I start rolling the other team fierce they say nothing. Again ignore the trolls and just do your character role as best as possible.

3. You are seeing what happens when you get a thick skin. I have that happen to me all day I say thanks man to a teammate and they get defensive thinking I'm being sarcastic.

stay in groups when you duo queue or solo it's troll bro city and you will be be surprised at how much of a jerk some players are.

 

[delirium]

I can't see a world where Valve releases a game that doesn't try to appeal to low skill players.

They can ease and help players with the learning curve but Dota is very much a hardcore game (it comes from a mod).

 

[Nemesis121]

15mil, how many of those are dual box accounts? or bots they banned?

 

[LCGeek]

15mil, how many of those are dual box accounts? or bots they banned?

Dual box
People using the same machine or set like in a household.
Smurf Accounts ( I have 2 plus a main for what I helped friends lvl with)

This just a PR thing as most have already shown or mentioned.

 

[Ladyboy101]

This means DOTA is guaranteed to be F2P

 

[Subitai]

The user numbers are a little over blown, but the 210k watching for finals was impressive.

 

[Dina]

The user numbers are a little over blown, but the 210k watching for finals was impressive.

This was also up for debate, as the launcher had the video incorporated.

But I could care less about number. LoL has numbers, but while the casual nature and the mechanics of the game caters to those quick 30 min games, the queues do not.

 

[SouthernDragon]

This was also up for debate, as the launcher had the video incorporated.
But I could care less about number. LoL has numbers, but while the casual nature and the mechanics of the game caters to those quick 30 min games, the queues do not.

It had a link to the video, but the video didn't automatically play. The launcher did not add to the count. Also, I rarely face queues, and if I do they usually last under 3 minutes.

Denying was tweaked various times but always there. Originally it was a full denial full xp and gold then it just became full gold and some xp unsure about how much xp. Full denying made dota broke for the vets or high level players. You could deny someone most of the game and be quite a few levels ahead. While I liked the ability to do so unless you spent a lot of time on the game it was insanely broke for new players and more casual types.
You can get first blood before the game even starts in LOL. Bush baits or blue buffs are the easiest spots and it can happen quite easily considering no one has health but damage on certain characters is op lvl1. People hurt even low lvls if they are going for damage it's worse because not even tanks have items to stop it.

Partial exp in HoN.

Denying gives reduced XP.

I stand corrected, and I'm happy to eat crow. I played DotA back when denial meant full gold and xp denial, and caused a massive imbalance between the hardcore and moderately casual. People would be stuck at low levels while opposing teams ran around at 3-6 levels stronger. I'm glad to hear that it's been toned down and is really more of a tactic for lane control.

Quick note: First blood usually requires summoner skills, no? Or it's usually 3+ ganging up on one if it's below level 3

 

[Sophia]

Quick note: First blood usually requires summoner skills, no? Or it's usually 3+ ganging up on one if it's below level 3

Properly chosen and used summoner skills help, but in all my experiences playing with LoL pros, it's all about lane control and positioning.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Properly chosen and used summoner skills help, but in all my experiences playing with LoL pros, it's all about lane control and positioning.

I agree, but the original discussion about that was geared more to level 1 ganks in the jungle.