Legend of Korra Book 3: Change |OT| SCHEDULEBENDING

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Actually, I can absolutely see Sokka becoming a politician. I think a huge part of what made Sokka so endearing is that he always sought to help others, even if it usually didn't go to plan. Aang and Katara and Toph were also good people, by and by, but they had to work at it - Aang was manipulative on occasion, Katara sometimes self-centered, and Toph was Toph. Sokka was just there when he was needed, no questions asked. Secondly, he always wanted to impress and to lead.
 
Veelk said:
At this point, sexual satisfaction most likely. I don't get it either.
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I would think it HAS to be personal.

Except Disney & Cartoon Network pull this all the time. What is it about animation?

FX doesn't do this.

AMC doesn't do this.

HBO doesn't do this.

Do TPTB really believe jerking around their fans leads to anything positive?
 
Crab said:
Actually, I can absolutely see Sokka becoming a politician. I think a huge part of what made Sokka so endearing is that he always sought to help others, even if it usually didn't go to plan. Aang and Katara and Toph were also good people, by and by, but they had to work at it - Aang was manipulative on occasion, Katara sometimes self-centered, and Toph was Toph. Sokka was just there when he was needed, no questions asked. Secondly, he always wanted to impress and to lead.
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uh....no, not at all.

He was sexist at first, he was easy to aggravate, he hated stupidity (Something you deal with a lot in politics) and if anything, he was definitely the more self centered of the two siblings. That's not even an opinion, that was the entire point of "The Painted Lady" episode. He didn't see the tactical advantage in helping a random poor village so he was advocating just leaving the place to rot. Katara was the one who screamed at him that she wasn't ever going to leave anyone who needed her help out to dry. That was her entire thing, being motherly and caring for others, to the point that it caused problems with Toph.

Don't get me wrong, Katara had her flaws, but selfishness was rarely a problem with her. And Sokka was pragmatically minded and probably the least sociable of the Gaang.

Not that any of that would prevent him from becoming a poltiician. Just watch House of Cards if you want to see how much a politician has to be 'seeking to help others and good people and wanting to impress' to be good at his job.




I should point out, in my post, it's not that Sokka can't become a poltiician, or Toph can't become a police chief. The career's we land in are rarely the ones we see ourselves having as a kid. I'm becoming a neuroscientist, and I can tell you that was decided about a year ago, and no one saw it coming, least of all me. So it's possible, but there is anything basing Sokka in politics in TLA.
 
Now that they've gotten past the leaks, it makes sense for them to not burn through the rest of the episodes so quickly. Have they announced what is airing in place of episodes 10 and 11 next week? I wouldn't be surprised if we just get episode 9 next week if they haven't.
 
korra and asami are going to be like
yg4vkya.gif
and thats why nick is pulling the show
OGq50.gif
 
Actually, this schedule change may actually make sense.

LoK got released as early as it did because episodes 4,5 and 6 were leaked. And then they rushed to give us the first 3, then 4,5,6. We got episode 7 as well, but now we're past the leaks.

And I guess they want to drag this out for more ratings. I don't know if it's going to work, but I can see the reasoning.
 
Kyledk05 said:
Uh-oh spaghetti-o's

Nickelodeon Pulls Five “Legend of Korra” Premieres
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Fuck this.

Veelk said:
Actually, this schedule change may actually make sense.

LoK got released as early as it did because episodes 4,5 and 6 were leaked. And then they rushed to give us the first 3, then 4,5,6. We got episode 7 as well, but now we're past the leaks.

And I guess they want to drag this out for more ratings. I don't know if it's going to work, but I can see the reasoning.
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They could shift it back to Saturday (so a reboot of the season at a later time). My only thing is, why would they only do this NOW after they already saw that Friday was a ratings drain in Book 2. And after they rush released this season w/ no advertising. Granted, I get the leaks were a problem. But even 2 weeks later + advertising would have been better than nothing.
 
Admiral Woofington said:
When they were showing previews of the season 2 finale the creators purposely trolled the fan base by showing the scene of katara leaning in to touch zukos face completely out of context. Nobody survived pre and post episode. IT WAS A FIREFIIIIIIGHT.
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Good God I remember this. What an epic time to be alive that was.
Admiral Woofington said:
Wait so you mean that when you put the show in a death slot it doesn't do well? Lol nick looking for any excuse to cancel this show.
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Is there any value for them in canceling the show? They're already into production of the next season. Seems like they'll stick it out.
Veelk said:
LoK got released as early as it did because episodes 4,5 and 6 were leaked. And then they rushed to give us the first 3, then 4,5,6. We got episode 7 as well, but now we're past the leaks.
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I guess it makes sense to some extent. Pump out the leaks and then pull back for the unreleased stuff. Still sucks.
 
Veelk said:
I don't think I agree, given Zuko was essentially a deuteragonist. His importance in the story seemed at least as important as Aang's. If Aang's presence made her a side character in his story, I don't think her getting with Zuko would have been significantly different. Personally, I always thought of Katara as a great feminist character because her complex characterization that is defined by her own agency. Her story was within Aang's, but that did not take away that she had her own journey. I suppose I agree that it would have subverted the trope of the hero getting the girl, but if you want to do that effectively, a more appropriate pairing would have been for Katara to get with some side/minor character instead of Zuko (like the way Zuko got with relatively minor character Mai, or Sokka with Suki and Yue)
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Hold on, here's the whole thing if you're interested:

Here’s Katara and Zuko’s paralleled journey:

Book One: Water - Let’s parse this down pretty quickly. The series as a whole is about Aang, but each season has a focus on an element and certain characters within. Season one is Katara’s journey to learning waterbending in addition to learning to deal with being part of a party that includes the Avatar. Zuko and Katara’s relationship during this season is an antagonistic one; they’re on opposite sides of a fight and they only see each other in terms of black and white. Good guy, bad guy. It makes sense that this is the element of change because their lives are changing. Katara’s call was to leave for the North Pole, Zuko’s was to find the Avatar. But these are both the initial journeys, not the ultimate ones that they have to make. At the beginning of the season, Zuko can overpower Katara, but by the end of it, they meet each other as equals and opposites. For the rest of the series, Zuko and Katara will continue to meet each other on equal terms, because they have changed to become balances to each other. Season One is about that initial balance, and the stark contrasts between them.

Book Two: Earth - Season two is about substance and nuance. Following Katara and Zuko’s developments this season is following the fullness of their characters. Katara isn’t just a good guy, and Zuko isn’t just a bad guy. Their initial journeys as heroes are changing, and Zuko is starting to deal with the turmoil of having to admit his “heroic” role. They fill out the differences between each other: Zuko is surprisingly merciful to refugees; Katara is surprisingly merciless to Jet. They are more than black and white, there are various shades of gray that fill their personalities and their characterizations. There is a moment where they could team up, but panicked, Zuko refuses help when the only person he believes loves him looks like he could die.

The finale of season two is such an important crux of these two character’s relationship that it must feel over-talked about. And yet it’s the perfect illustration of what Dante Basco said. By the end of book two, we know that Mai used to have a crush on Zuko, and that his reactions were not necessarily reciprocal at his age. He does think of her, however - and even if you count the TLA comics as canon regarding his banishment, there’s not really an established relationship there.

Zuko’s ability to love is directly tied with his ability to see himself as a lovable person, or a person worthy of love and redemption. And this entire season has gone out of its way to show Katara that things haven’t been black and white for people, that there is more than just the surface. So when Zuko and Katara confront each other in the cave beneath Ba Sing Se, it’s a confrontation that starts with Zuko as a humbled hero, and Katara as a hero who needs to re-evaluate her assumptions. Both of them walk away having learned something from each other. And for a brief, shining moment, Zuko believes he is a worthy person and the only person unrelated to him who sees this and presents the opportunity of that is Katara. Katara has to confront Zuko not just as an enemy, but as another hero who is hindering her cause. And really, who else can they learn from, if not each other? They’ve been diametrically opposed for an entire previous season, and now their similarities are fleshed out:

Katara: …You have no idea what this war has put me through. Me personally. The Fire Nation took my mother away from me.
Zuko: I’m sorry. That’s something we have in common.

In any other dynamic, this moment of Katara offering up understanding and redemption could easily be Zuko’s “Meeting with the Goddess”. But here’s the great thing about this: Katara’s narrative matters in her presence. Over Zuko’s. Her side of the hero’s journey places Zuko as the Shapeshifter whom she doesn’t really know if she can trust, but has to try - because she needs him to be trustworthy to succeed. When Katara leaves, however, Zuko’s hero’s journey is at another step, with Azula as The Temptress offering a Leave Your Quest Test by implying Zuko’s journey is to become the crown Prince by joining their father. Katara is never once Zuko’s prize, never once less than his journey, and they become mutually integral to each other’s growths.

They fight again not just because Zuko chose the wrong side, but because they’re opposing heroes who are equal in strength, force, and power to each other. This is a fight about Katara’s faith as much as it is Zuko’s worth. Moments before they had acknowledged each other not just as equal opponents but equal people; and this sort of love is so important that it’s the very reason why Azula’s ploy works. He sees Katara as worthy, and she sees him as worthy, but first and foremost, his previous journey had been trying to get his father to see him as worthy.

That desperation is what held him back and why he had to fight on the wrong side. This also reverts Katara, who will bear a grudge into the next season.

Book Three: The third season is about Apotheosis:

The Hero comes to view the world in a new and radically different way, either because of a critical breakthrough he’s made or some crucial information he’s uncovered. If it is something to do with himself then this is a good time for an I Am Who?.

And as the season of Fire, it’s about Power. It is, for Katara and Zuko, about choosing when to use it, and how to use it. What powers they accept, and how they utilize them. Katara has the power to blood bend, she has the power to get her vengeance, and she has the power to be a hero and save the day. In the same turn, Zuko has the power to be the Prince his father “wants”, but he also has the power to teach the Avatar, to realize his destiny is elsewhere, and as someone suggested “Capture his honor and restore the Avatar.” His power is in his abilities and choices. His power is Katara’s power, the power of heroes. Katara saw this before, and Zuko understands it in this season.

He is more than her equal enemy; he is her equal ally.

This is the first thing Katara throws back at Zuko:

Katara: You might have everyone else here buying your “transformation”. But you and I both know you’ve struggled with doing the right thing in the past.

and this is important. Zuko doesn't and probably can’t conceptualize a full-blown romance with Katara, necessarily. But he sees her as someone who can respect him, can see him as the hero and not a villain or who his father wants him to be. Likewise, Zuko has no false pretenses about who Katara is, what she means to him, to the people around her, or her nuances. She is not just a heroine, or the supporter of the Avatar. Zuko knows and has had to deal with firsthand, everything else Katara is without the luxury or intimacy of writing off parts of her personality. (Her friends are her family, and often “overlook” her flaws in favor of seeing the best in her.)

Zuko: This isn’t fair. Everyone else seems to trust me now. What is it with you?
Katara: Oh, everyone trusts you now? I was the first person to trust you, remember Back in Ba Sing Se. And you turned around and betrayed me. Betrayed all of us.
Zuko: What can I do to make it up to you?
Katara: You really want to know? Hmm, maybe you could re-conquer Ba Sing Se in the name of the Earth King. Or, I know: you could bring my mother back.

Zuko’s betrayal is against Katara first and foremost. And while true, looking at canon, Zuko isn’t actively in a romance with Katara, they have been otherwise set up to be partners, and equals. He isn’t in a romance with Katara, but he does love Katara because she reached out from the clear other side and gave him opportunity. Zuko does not love himself for all of Season One, most of Season Two, and half of Season Three. Katara saw otherwise, and this is his love - her power as a Hero has been to carry out her cause, and she pulled him into it. Katara is Zuko’s call, because Katara’s call is greater than his initial one. What’s her destiny is therefore his.

This love is why Zuko says “I do care what she thinks of me.” Zuko realizes they’re on the same journey, and are supposed to be a team. True, he is in an involved relationship with Mai at this point, but Zuko does not bring Mai into his journey, and does not see her as a part of the journey itself. His defiance as Prince does not include her because he saw her as a part of the things he was defying - and frankly, Mai was safer remaining there. (This is also another unfortunate side effect of the treatment of Mai’s character. Had season three been longer, we would have had much more time to obtain her side of the story.)

This is why TSR as an episode cements this partnership between them. Aang preaches forgiveness, and Zuko does what Katara did for him: he gave her an opportunity and trusted her choices. It works because Katara doesn’t forgive the man who killed her mother - and she shouldn’t have to. It was a cold-blooded murder. But she also choses not to kill this man in return.

Zuko is concerned over her rest, and strength. Katara writes off his concern. She has plenty of strength for this. She has the strength of will and drive - a Firebender’s strength - to make this confrontation. Her choice to not use her power is just as important as a choice to use it would have been. This is Zuko’s element and Katara’s use of it.

Katara: I don’t know if it’s because I’m too weak to do it or if it’s because I’m strong enough not to.

By this turn, Katara forgives Zuko and they are cemented as partners in a narrative. They have the same goals now, the same strengths and weaknesses. They take different approaches, but are essentially not that different from each other, and Katara clearly cares as much as Zuko does. They prepare Aang for battle together, they push him in different ways - “We’re trying to help”, and “Let him go, he needs time to sort it out himself.”

The finale is four episodes of Zuko and Katara being friends, partners, and heroes together. Why? Because if you look at it as a dual journey between them both, Katara’s agency matters. Her growth matters. Her choice is to fight, and it’s to fight beside someone she deems worthy.

This closeness gets lampshaded:

June: I see you worked things out with your girlfriend.
Katara: I’m not his girlfriend!
Zuko: She’s not my girlfriend!

They lead the way to Iroh’s camp with the help of Jun, Zuko has an atonement with Father moment, and then:

Zuko: You’re right. Katara, how would you like to help me put Azula in her place?
Katara: It would be my pleasure.

We get the final epic fight - not between them, but with them fighting side by side. And Zuko shows his readiness to sacrifice himself for her without thought or hesitation.

This is the “special place in his heart” for a first love. Katara is loved first because Katara shows Zuko the ability to love. Zuko will always love her for being that person, for extending her trust first, for being his partner. That’s a first love, regardless of whether or not it was physically actualized. Zuko also loves Mai, in the end. This is his physical romance, by all means, but she is not the heroine he chooses to work side by side with. They are not battle-forged, which is unfortunate, because it would have been a pleasure to see. It is Zuko and Katara whose journeys had to meet and come together; their development, their stories, and their narratives become one, while Aang goes and defeats Ozai on his own, where they set him up to be.

The love is compassion, loyalty, trust, and it’s so incredibly frustrating to have three seasons and four straight episodes of the two of them and their combined narrative’s importance and growth ending up with Zuko getting his “Return of the King” moment…and Katara getting to be Aang’s girlfriend in narrative.

There was love there, it just didn't get used. And what a shame, too. It would have been a brilliant subversion to “The Main Character Hero Gets The Girl.” which A:TLA unfortunately delved into in the last five minutes of the ‘Get the Girl’ kiss and basically any comic and all of TLOK that came out after it.
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Kinvara said:
Hold on, here's the whole thing if you're interested:
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I read it. I like how the writer used the heroes journey to parallel Katara's and Zuko's character development, something I hadn't thought about. And I suppose I can see how someone would see this as an effective subversion of "The hero gets the girl" trope, more so than getting with some random minor character, so they got me there. It was really well written.

Still, while I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what this person wrote, the fact is that Katara and Aang grew together as characters as well. I wish I could analyze the development of their relationship in the detail that this person wrote, but I think that would require me to watch the entire series again to do it justice. Still, while Zutara is certainly a viable choice, I just don't accept that Katara became his 'prize' in the end. Aang just doesn't disrespect her like that and Katara had her own agency and development through the series, and the pair grew closer together through it. I don't see this as the hero getting the girl. I see this as heroes getting each other, much like how Zuko and Katara would have been as well. Superficially, yes, I suppose Aang is the hero, and he does get the girl in the end, but the wonder of TLA is that there is more than superficiality to it, much like how Ozai could be described as a generic evil overlord, but is so much more under close examination. Idk, I just feel a strong feminist character stays a strong feminist character, whether or not she gets involved with 'the right guy' or not. Katara could have gotten with Aang or Zuko or Haru or no one at all, and I wouldn't think her value was diminished.

Furthermore, while it would have subverted the trope, I don't feel the depth of Zuko and Katara's relationship as the author describes is lost or invalidated any way by them not getting together. I like that they have this deep, mutually respectful relationship that isn't either romantic or familial in nature, as is so often the case, because the prevailing social assumption is that men can't have relationship with a woman that isn't sexually or romantically charged if they're not family. That Zuko and Katara have a relationship like they do is a subversion in and of itself for me. Yes, they do love each other, they have Storge and Philia, and while Eros would have added a new dimension, I don't feel they really need it.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for the link.


P.S.

It's so surreal to me that TLA was written by the same people who wrote Makorra. I really hope one day we find out, because Makorra is clearly meant to be Zutara 2.0 (atleast in generalities), and I want to know how they can screw up so badly something they did so well last time (I guess I can say that about a lot of aspects of the show, but I think this might be the closest parallel we've got)
 
Kyledk05 said:
Uh-oh spaghetti-o's

Nickelodeon Pulls Five “Legend of Korra” Premieres
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Well this is stupid.

Hehateme said:
Should we hit the panic button?
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Can we do it later? It's too hot where I am.

Satch said:
korra and asami are going to be like
yg4vkya.gif
and thats why nick is pulling the show
OGq50.gif
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Pfftwhahahaa, I wish.

Jintor said:
They really are schedulebending huh, and not for the better
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What we need is the Avatar to restore balance.

KEL where are yooooou?
 
Nick executives are so fucking stupid. This is what they get for not planning Korra as a 3 seasons wide product. And then moving the series to fking Fridays afternoons.

Ugh this basically kills any chance of getting a post-Korra Avatar world based cartoon.
 
Veelk said:
I read it. I like how the writer used the heroes journey to parallel Katara's and Zuko's character development, something I hadn't thought about. And I suppose I can see how someone would see this as an effective subversion of "The hero gets the girl" trope, more so than getting with some random minor character, so they got me there. It was really well written.

Still, while I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what this person wrote, the fact is that Katara and Aang grew together as characters as well. I wish I could analyze the development of their relationship in the detail that this person wrote, but I think that would require me to watch the entire series again to do it justice. Still, while Zutara is certainly a viable choice, I just don't accept that Katara became his 'prize' in the end. Aang just doesn't disrespect her like that and Katara had her own agency and development through the series, and the pair grew closer together through it. I don't see this as the hero getting the girl. I see this as heroes getting each other, much like how Zuko and Katara would have been as well. Superficially, yes, I suppose Aang is the hero, and he does get the girl in the end, but the wonder of TLA is that there is more than superficiality to it, much like how Ozai could be described as a generic evil overlord, but is so much more under close examination. Idk, I just feel a strong feminist character stays a strong feminist character, whether or not she gets involved with 'the right guy' or not. Katara could have gotten with Aang or Zuko or Haru or no one at all, and I wouldn't think her value was diminished.

Furthermore, while it would have subverted the trope, I don't feel the depth of Zuko and Katara's relationship as the author describes is lost or invalidated any way by them not getting together. I like that they have this deep, mutually respectful relationship that isn't either romantic or familial in nature, as is so often the case, because the prevailing social assumption is that men can't have relationship with a woman that isn't sexually or romantically charged if they're not family. That Zuko and Katara have a relationship like they do is a subversion in and of itself for me. Yes, they do love each other, they have Storge and Philia, and while Eros would have added a new dimension, I don't feel they really need it.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for the link.


P.S.

It's so surreal to me that TLA was written by the same people who wrote Makorra. I really hope one day we find out, because Makorra is clearly meant to be Zutara 2.0 (atleast in generalities), and I want to know how they can screw up so badly something they did so well last time (I guess I can say that about a lot of aspects of the show, but I think this might be the closest parallel we've got)
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Glad, you enjoyed the read-through. There really is a validity to a Katara and Zuko relationship regardless of whether or not you view it as possibly romantic. So it's more than just "these characters look pretty together".

Mako and Korra tried to emulate the Zuko and Katara relationship but it missed all the things that made Zuko and Katara such excellent parallels to each other.

Kyledk05 said:
What does this MEAN? I'm intrigued.
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I don't even care at this point. I don't have cable anyway...
 
As far as I understand the situation, the no-online + two episodes per week was their way of circumventing any possible ratings damage caused by the 6 leaked episodes. Now that they're caught up, it's back to normal. Unless I'm missing something crucial I don't see reason to freak out and it's not a far cry from the weird scheduling the series has always been subject to, as far back as when TLA was airing.

edit: hmm ok, if that image Bryan posted actually means it won't air on the channel at all anymore, then it's indeed weird.
 
Pappasman said:
Good. Looks like I was right. Put this shit on netflix or hulu or whatever.
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I'd be okay with that, since I actually have Netflix and Hulu+. I pay for Nick here in NZ but they haven't even shown Book 2 yet I don't think. They're terrible.

Just looking at Netflix/Hulu now though, no TLA on there? What the hell are they thinking? All I can find is a bit of Korra on Hulu...
 
Peagles said:
I'd be okay with that, since I actually have Netflix and Hulu+. I pay for Nick here in NZ but they haven't even shown Book 2 yet I don't think. They're terrible.

Just looking at Netflix/Hulu now though, no TLA on there? What the hell are they thinking? All I can find is a bit of Korra on Hulu...
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I think they put all their shows on Amazon Prime for some ungodly reason.
Nick use to be big on Netflix then they sold out to that shit service.
 
Peagles said:
Just looking at Netflix/Hulu now though, no TLA on there? What the hell are they thinking? All I can find is a bit of Korra on Hulu...
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Riki said:
I think they put all their shows on Amazon Prime for some ungodly reason.
Nick use to be big on Netflix then they sold out to that shit service.
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Yup, I first watched ATLA on Netflix without knowing it was going to be taken down. That would have been an awful surprise.
 
Kinvara said:
Glad, you enjoyed the read-through. There really is a validity to a Katara and Zuko relationship regardless of whether or not you view it as possibly romantic. So it's more than just "these characters look pretty together".

Mako and Korra tried to emulate the Zuko and Katara relationship but it missed all the things that made Zuko and Katara such excellent parallels to each other.
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Oh, they definitely had the possibility to be romantic. I'm just saying that I think that possibility not turning out is not a huge loss so long as we got an equally valid conclusion in it's place, which I think only comes natural with well written characters. And hey, I am not opposed to different pairings at all. I think Aang and Azula's personalities could have played interestingly off each other. A crazy sociopath and a pacifistic monk. Just think of the hijinks!


But yeah, Mako and Korra feel like they are what more shallow fans of Zutara saw the pairing as. They were for the people who really do think there's nothing more to it than 'these characters look pretty together'. I said this before, but even before season 2, I have no idea what the characters see in each other besides teenage lust.
 
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