Support NeoGAF

[FortuneFaded]

What's infuriating about those white gay men who are pushing back against this is that we have to thank gay PoC for gay rights even being a thing, it was queer brown and black people at the forefront of the fight for gay rights, and these privileged motherfuckers taking umbrage at this gesture is a huge insult to them.

But it's just another day in the post-racial utopia that is America.

You're saying white people have not been involved at all with gay rights? How ignorant are you?

 

[Apharmd]

That isn't what Rayis said at all.

 

[GameAddict411]

As someone who is gay and not white, I don't see how being gay is somehow related to race. If we start adding colors of skin on the flags, than shouldn't they add all the skin colors of different races? It's also made the flag ugly.

 

[davepoobond]

Who approves the flag for general use?

 

[sjboi]

Who approves the flag for general use?

Well it's a design from the Mayor's office but I do wonder how many vendors/bars/businesses in Philadelphia will actually adopt the new flag and my guess is not that many, which is sure to create controversy in and of itself.

 

[Izuna]

Does anyone else think that the introduction of this flag now means the original can be used as a hate symbol?

 

[Rayis]

You're saying white people have not been involved at all with gay rights? How ignorant are you?

As Apharmd already pointed out, that's not what I said at all, there were surely white people involded in the Stonewall riots but the ones who really kick started it were people of color like Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson, it's only fair to point out considering racism in the gay community is still prevalent.

 

[Kase]

No, it doesn't make sense at all actually.

I'll preface this by saying I'm a brown, gay man. There is much to be said about how people of color are treated in the LGBT community. That is, not particularly well; there is a clear higharchy: whites at the top, blacks at the bottom and everyone else in between. I do believe this needs to be tackled, and that it often gets swept under the rug.

I do not like this new flag however. In fact, I might just actively hate it. The first reason is a bit shallow: its ugly. You have the rainbow.... and then black and brown. It doesn't fit and it doesn't really look nice.

The second, more important reason is that the pride flag does not explicitly include ethnicites and thats the point. Its supposed to be a sign of welcome for everyone. This betrays that completely. By adding black and brown, they are taking away from that underlying theme.

What about Asians (Which itself is a group of a wide range of unique cultures) ? What about Latinos? First Nations? Shouldn't they get representation here too? Thats the problem this flag introduces, and its a problem the original avoids by design. The original flag implicitly includes everyone by explicitly including no one. This flag explicitly includes only two groups and therefore explicitly excludes everyone who doesn't get their own color. I see this as leading to quite the slippery slope where everyone else needs their own color on one flag and suddenly we have just as many colors as we have in the LGBT*.... acronym (which is to say, a lot).

Different ethnic groups are not supposed to have their own color on the flag because it betrays the point of the flag, which is to unify. This divides. This reminds us how fractured the LGBT community is. Now, maybe to some thats a good thing. It shows people how far we have to go. But that turns it into a symbol of negativity, wheres its supposed to by a symbol of happiness and well, pride.



This. It feels like scraps. Like "Ok, sure if you insist, you can have your own special place on the flag, separate from the rest of us"

I totally agree with this as another gay POC. The colours aren't meant signify different groups within the LGBT community, but rather our spectrum of sexuality and acceptance for everything and everyone. Personally i find it looks really too. I understand why they want to put the black and brown in, but then you're also excluding other ethnicities too then.

 

[Yeoman]

Am I the only person that finds the term People/Person of Colour terrible?
I can't believe people actually want to be called that.

 

[Kase]

Am I the only person that finds the term People/Person of Colour terrible?
I can't believe people actually want to be called that.

Well, would non-white be better then?

 

[Tuck]

The criticism in this thread is evident of this. Gay racism shows it's ugly head but no one wants to be called a racist.

Oh fuck off with this. Criticism of this flag doesn't make you a racist. Theres a legitimate discussion to be had here, as I and others have expressed.

As a gay black man living in Philadelphia, let me tell you why I think this makes sense, at least for our city.

Philadelphia is one of the growing number of major metropolitan cities in this country that is also majority minority. Particularly, black and brown people (black people alone make up over 44% of the city's population). You're thinking that black and brown is implied by the actual colors of the original rainbow flag, but as someone who lives here, is very active in the community, and experiences gay life here day-to-day, let me tell you that my response to that is a big fat "Fucking LOL."

The gay community in general has its issues with race, but Philadelphia's gay community in particular is one of the most segregated communities I've ever experienced. For a city full of black people, it's not at all uncommon to see only a handful of black people in the Gayborhood (the name of our gay district) at any given time. And speaking to a lot of gay people of color in this city, it's not at all uncommon to feel unwelcome in the Gayborhood. Bars, bartenders, bouncers openly discriminate against you. I have been refused service in gay bars in this city. I have been out with white friends who have actually had to call this out.

And the timing of this flag is no coincidence, because this subject has come up a lot lately.

Brian Sims, a Pennsylvania House Rep who serves the Gayborhood, recently wrote an op-ed about it: Gayborhood's 'Dangerous' Climate

Last year, the owner of iCandy, one of the Gayborhood's largest clubs, had a disgruntled former employee release a video of him looking at security footage and calling all of the black patrons "niggers who just want free drink passes." This one stung me personally, because I was a regular at this bar, knew the owner personally, and never once stepped into the place unprepared to pay for my drinks and tip handsomely. I haven't been back to this bar since this happened.

Also last year, there was a hearing in the city specifically on racial discrimination in the Gayborhood. It was attended by hundreds.

And recently Tavern on Camack, another popular bar/club, had a mass firing over a series of incidents that I don't know the details of. But to this day there is now a notice posted at the entrance to the bar announcing that ToC is a bar for everyone, and racial intolerance will not be accepted from anyone, patrons or staff (I'm paraphrasing, obviously).

And let me not even get STARTED on the absence of PoC participation in Philly's queer/pride festivals.

The point is, by amending the flag, Philly's not just making a statement on the gay community as a whole, it's more directly addressing a symptom of our community not being particularly accepting of queer PoC. It'll take more than adding a few stripes, but it's appreciated.

I appreciate your thoughtful post. It is a shame what PoC have to go through in this community and in society in general.

But, I still disagree with you. Your post talks heavily about PoC's experiences in the gay community, but I never denied that. I'm focusing on the meaning behind the flag. Its not enough to simply add two colors and say "Ok now we are included" or "Ok now you have to notice us." If anything, it does a disservice because it just highlights and cements those divides. My post focused on the meaning behind the flag - thats whats important. The flag is a symbol, not just a set of colours. Therefore if we want to change the symbol, those changes need to mesh with whats already there, or the symbology breaks down completely, which I discussed in my post.

Absolutely, there needs to be a conversation about making the LGBT community more welcoming for everyone. And I can at the very least appreciate that this started a conversation about it. But I stand by every word in my original post.

 

[NintendoRev]

I find this kind of stupid, as the meaning of the original flag was already to represent everything. No one race was singled out on it.

Pink: Sex
Red:Life
Orange:Healing
Yellow:Sunlight
Green:Nature
Turquoise:Art
Indigo:Serenity
Violet:Spirit


But whatever makes you happy i guess.

 

[Meicyn]

Each of the colors in the present flag have a single meaning. Red is life, green is nature, and so on. Is representation for POC going to occupy two stripes? If so, why? Is it strictly an aesthetic thing?

I'm not opposed to the inclusion of a new stripe for said representation, but two of them? The addition of race already bucks the theme of the flag which seems a little iffy but whatever. But now we're assigning a single meaning to two separate stripes on the flag? That doesn't seem appropriate at all.

One stripe is fine, two is pushing it.

 

[Yeoman]

Well, would non-white be better then?

That's even worse. I don't think people should label themselves based on the opposite of another label.
I know it sounds weird but the term somehow disgusts me, it's like people have accepted that so-called "whites" are the default human. Everyone else is a "Person of Colour", I mean Jesus...
I'm glad this nomenclature is mainly limited to the US.

 

[Tuck]

That's even worse. I don't think people should label themselves based on the opposite of another label.
I know it sounds weird but the term somehow disgusts me, it's like people have accepted that so-called "whites" are the default human. Everyone else is a "Person of Colour", I mean Jesus...
I'm glad this nomenclature is mainly limited to the US.

No, you actually make a good point. Never thought of it that way.

 

[Kase]

The very fact that another flag has been created and is creating divisions within the community already shows this is not what the LGBT flag stands for. Should we be forced to accept this new flag just to show that we support POC (although there are POC like me that are against the symbolism of the flag)? I agree that us gay POC have experience more hardships, but I personally don't think this is a right step forward, it totally ruins the original symbolism of the flag, and causes further segregation.

 

[LordCiego]

It was time that Black people were also represented, now they can stand toe to toe with blue, green and purple people /s

My opinion as a White non lgbt person is that the old flag represented all people or all lgbt people, it is an inclusive flag, for me this new flag is a little disrepectfull in the sense that it implies that black people werent represented by it or even make a case that black lgbt people is a more special case, which goes against the case of the previous one being an inclusive one.

Edit: Tuck said what I think better than me.

 

[Kase]

That's even worse. I don't think people should label themselves based on the opposite of another label.
I know it sounds weird but the term somehow disgusts me, it's like people have accepted that so-called "whites" are the default human. Everyone else is a "Person of Colour", I mean Jesus...
I'm glad this nomenclature is mainly limited to the US.

Although I also agree, there needs to be a way of identifying people who have been marginalised or have a social disadvantage. We know that race/colour plays a bit part in this, so unfortunately that's how its been labelled.

 

[Yado]

Oh fuck off with this. Criticism of this flag doesn't make you a racist. Theres a legitimate discussion to be had here, as I and others have expressed.


I appreciate your thoughtful post. It is a shame what PoC have to go through in this community and in society in general.

But, I still disagree with you. Your post talks heavily about PoC's experiences in the gay community, but I never denied that. I'm focusing on the meaning behind the flag. Its not enough to simply add two colors and say "Ok now we are included" or "Ok now you have to notice us." If anything, it does a disservice because it just highlights and cements those divides. My post focused on the meaning behind the flag - thats whats important. The flag is a symbol, not just a set of colours. Therefore if we want to change the symbol, those changes need to mesh with whats already there, or the symbology breaks down completely, which I discussed in my post.

Absolutely, there needs to be a conversation about making the LGBT community more welcoming for everyone. And I can at the very least appreciate that this started a conversation about it. But I stand by every word in my original post.

On one hand you say that adding two colours is not enough but you acknowledge that the flag has started a conversation about what it's meant to convey. The amended flag is supposed to be part of the campaign mentioned in the OP, it's not all there is to it.

That's even worse. I don't think people should label themselves based on the opposite of another label.
I know it sounds weird but the term somehow disgusts me, it's like people have accepted that so-called "whites" are the default human. Everyone else is a "Person of Colour", I mean Jesus...
I'm glad this nomenclature is mainly limited to the US.

POC is an umbrella term so people don't have to keep saying Asian/Latino/Black etc over and over. It's not that deep.

 

[Yeoman]

No, you actually make a good point. Never thought of it that way.

Although I also agree, there needs to be a way of identifying people who have been marginalised or have a social disadvantage. We know that race/colour plays a bit part in this, so unfortunately that's how its been labelled.

I do agree that there is a need for convenience and the term allows all the various marginalised groups to be included in one word.
It just doesn't sit well with me because of how it's anchored to "the other" if you get what I mean.

 

[Sai-kun]

I do agree that there is a need for convenience and the term allows all the various marginalised groups to be included in one word.
It just doesn't sit well with me because of how it's anchored to "the other" if you get what I mean.

it's not like poc are the ones who asked to made into the other

 

[Kase]

On one hand you say that adding two colours is not enough but you acknowledge that the flag has started a conversation about what it's meant to convey. The amended flag is supposed to be part of the campaign mentioned in the OP, it's not all there is to it.

While I'm glad and happy a conversation has been started, I don't think a new flag is the right way to approach it. Releasing this flag won't stop the racism within the community, but only further segregate and highlight the 'race issue'. It's more than just that. It's about the nonacceptance of fems, fats, and whatever the mainstream community is not accepting that should be highlighted.

 

[royalan]

I find this kind of stupid, as the meaning of the original flag was already to represent everything. No one race was singled out on it.

Pink: Sex
Red:Life
Orange:Healing
Yellow:Sunlight
Green:Nature
Turquoise:Art
Indigo:Serenity
Violet:Spirit


But whatever makes you happy i guess.

So then do you have a problem with the 837393747825638 other versions of the rainbow flag?

Again, this is not the first time, or the last time, the rainbow flag has been amended to represent a particular subgroup. That THIS is the time that it's a problem, is frankly depressing.

 

[Nickle]

Yes, let's assume a flag with added representation for POC could be "militant".

Please explain, because this comment is poorly thought out when left just like that.

Sorry for being unclear, I'm really just talking about the aesthetics of the flag. I have no problem with the concept.

 

[Sai-kun]

While I'm glad and happy a conversation has been started, I don't think a new flag is the right way to approach it. Releasing this flag won't stop the racism within the community, but only further segregate and highlight the 'race issue'. It's more than just that. It's about the nonacceptance of fems, fats, and whatever the mainstream community is not accepting that should be highlighted.

?? race is a huge issue. the conversation has been happening. this flag didn't start it.

 

[KrellRell]

They butchered this thing

 

[Yado]

While I'm glad and happy a conversation has been started, I don't think a new flag is the right way to approach it. Releasing this flag won't stop the racism within the community, but only further segregate and highlight the 'race issue'. It's more than just that. It's about the nonacceptance of fems, fats, and whatever the mainstream community is not accepting that should be highlighted.

If the original pride flag design was such a magical unifying symbol why is there non-acceptance like you mentioned? Why is there a "race issue" (why is this is quotes? is it not real?)

 

[neojubei]

Aesthetically, it doesn't look so good (I'm starting to slowly like it though). Symbolically, it's god damn fucking needed. The amount of racism I've seen in the LGBT community sometimes makes me feel that I'm in 1950s America.

One can just go into gay dating sites and easily see the amount of "no blacks plz" on people's profiles. In LGBT media, people also loves to idolize the white gay cis-male over every other race, sexuality, sex, and gender. Inside a lot of clubs and community centers, there's sometimes a clear disdain for black queers. Oh, and don't get me started on how black trans people are treated. It's bad enough for me, as a white transwoman, but holy shit the disgusting treatment and behavior I've seen against black transwomen within our own community is appalling. Hell, even our own history is whitewashed internally (Did you know Stonewall was started by a Hispanic transwoman and a black cross dresser? A lot of people actually think it was a white guy who did it because of that stupid movie.) Quite frankly, this shit needs to be discussed.

And to be honest, the LGBT community has a lot of bloody bigotry to addressed. It's just not racism, there's slight signs of miysgony, a whole lot of biphobia and transphobia, and in a lot of eyes, every other gender identity, sexualitiy (including asexuals), and romantic orientations doesn't exist. There's a very clear social hierarchy inside, and to say that the old flag should remain because it's "inclusive" is laughable.

In my eyes, this new flag is needed, it's the first step to talking about the sheer bigotry within the community going forward. We seriously need to discuss it.

I agree. People saying the old flag was inclusive probably never had to experience any bigotry from the gay community. I never felt the gay flag or community was inclusive to anyone who wasn't a white gay male. The amount of racist crap I had to go through had put me off going to gay pride because it's all a huge farce which is why there is need for Black gay pride and Black gay clubs.

So then do you have a problem with the 837393747825638 other versions of the rainbow flag?

Again, this is not the first time, or the last time, the rainbow flag has been amended to represent a particular subgroup. That THIS is the time that it's a problem, is frankly depressing.

It's chilling and depressing that this version of the gay flag has some much hate towards it.

 

[Kase]

?? race is a huge issue. the conversation has been happening. this flag didn't start it.

Happening on one side, but not the other (or at least, refusing to acknowledge the dire extent of it). Now they have to talk about it, now it's being flown in their faces.

If the original pride flag design was such a magical unifying symbol why is there non-acceptance like you mentioned? Why is there a "race issue" (why is this is quotes? is it not real?)

Its meant to be symbolise a unifying power, but that doesn't always mean the people who use the flag are always going to be representative of its symbolism. Go see Trumpists and the USA flag. And I put the race issue in quotes, because its not just race. It's about nonacceptance of minority groups within the gay community itself. We should be striving further than just race, and go for acceptance of all. The original flag symbolised unity and acceptance of all. Now that symbolism has changed and added the race dimension into it, and that's what I don't agree with.

 

[Apharmd]

I'm seeing a lot of comments on my FB feed that this is a non issue and that there's better ways to go around this. That this demeans the original flag's inclusive meaning.

I'm fucking baffled that I'm seeing all lives matter arguments in response to this iteration of the flag.

 

[Servbot24]

I like the message but I don't like the design. Those colors are the wrong value and saturation to fit with the others.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I'm a white straight male so my opinion on this isn't that important, but the flag is kind of ugly. I really think what they're going for is important and I think it's good they're addressing race issues though.

 

[NintendoRev]

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

 

[i_am_ben]

Why do you look at this particular flag as an amendment on an international flag, but not the DOZENS of other variants on it?

Again, it's a ridiculous strawman. There are special rainbow flags that represent bisexual people, and transpeople, and AIDS victims. The rainbow flag has been amended countless times, and until now nobody has cared. The rainbow flag was not adopted with the intention of never being changed.

People are either totally ignorant of the actual history of this flag, or worse.

I think more inclusivity in the gay community is a great thing, and should be encouraged and underscored at every opportunity. I also think that more should be done to emphasise minority groups during pride as Philadelphia appears to be doing.

As such, I don't have any issue with variations of the pride flag (as I've said twice now), including whether they be for certain subcultures/groups or different causes.

My only issue with the new flag would be if it was "ok guys this is the flag we're gonna use for everything now. This is now the main one". And that's only because I don't think the new stripes make sense in other places outside America. Anyway, it doesn't appear that this is the intent so it's pretty much moot.

Hopefully this clears things up.

 

[Dyle]

This seems like a more positive, inclusive way of expressing the importance of LGBT minorities than some of the protests against police that have taken place during pride events this year, which were by nature exclusionary. Homophobia and racism are intrinsically entwined and representing that through the flag seems like a positive step towards a truly intersectional, progressive social rights platform. This might not be the right step but it is a step forward that will hopefully lead to greater coordination in the future.

Am I the only person that finds the term People/Person of Colour terrible?
I can't believe people actually want to be called that.

I still kind of think this in the back of my mind, but I've come to accept it as the generally agreed-upon term after some friends started self-identifying with the term. There are some upsides to it, such as being more inclusive of multi-racial people, for whom the term non-white might be inaccurate, and the acronym POC is quick and easy.

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

Seriously dude? All this is just to recognize that LGBT POC are discriminated against as well, and usually more, and deserve support and resources.

 

[Via Purifico]

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

Please get over yourself.

 

[NintendoRev]

Please get over yourself.

Nah, I'm good thanks.

 

[shira]

Symbolically it makes sense and fits with the idea of a community made up of many different people into one community. But aesthetically the flag has never been pleasing to my eye. Let's get a cool new flag for post DADT/Marriage equality!

Dope I like it

 

[Mahonay]

Love the message. Looks kind of off though. Maybe it will grow on me. Grew up with the gay flag around me constantly. Always loved the vibrance of the flag.

 

[Adam_Vania]

flag should be transparent so you can only see whats on the inside maaan

 

[Yado]

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

What the fuck are you even talking about? Is it difficult to grasp that poc in the lgbt community face different challenges than you do?

 

[Via Purifico]

This is a flag for Philly it's not changing it elsewhere.

We have a very bad racial problem here in our city and it shouldn't be ignored just because some feel it's already inclusive.

 

[Kase]

I think more inclusivity in the gay community is a great thing, and should be encouraged and underscored at every opportunity. I also think that more should be done to emphasise minority groups during pride as Philadelphia appears to be doing.

As such, I don't have any issue with variations of the pride flag (as I've said twice now), including whether they be for certain subcultures/groups or different causes.

My only issue with the new flag would be if it was "ok guys this is the flag we're gonna use for everything now. This is now the main one". And that's only because I don't think the new stripes make sense in other places outside America. Anyway, it doesn't appear that this is the intent so it's pretty much moot.

Hopefully this clears things up.

This is a flag for Philly it's not changing it elsewhere.

We have a very bad racial problem here in our city and it shouldn't be ignored just because some feel it's already inclusive.

Agreed. I would be fine if this was used contextually to focus on the issue of racism within the community. But what I would not agree with is if it was forced to become the defacto flag, and people use this to call people out for being anti-race inclusive. Even if for just within Philly.

 

[Sai-kun]

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

see, even gay folks can wild out like the straights do sometimes

this post is fuckin weird, man.

flag should be transparent so you can only see whats on the inside maaan

hahahah i love this

Agreed. I would be fine if this was used contextually to focus on the issue of racism within the community. But what I would not agree with is if it was forced to become the defacto flag, and people use this to call people out for being anti-race inclusive.

this thing has been around less than a week. it's a bit early to be worried about some crazy hypotheticals.

 

[Frozenprince]

What the fuck are you even talking about? Is it difficult to grasp that poc in the lgbt community face different challenges than you do?

That's haaaard

 

[perfectchaos007]

LGBTQ already has plenty of flags, not just the original rainbow the masses are used to seeing. Here's a guide

 

[Yado]

Agreed. I would be fine if this was used contextually to focus on the issue of racism within the community. But what I would not agree with is if it was forced to become the defacto flag, and people use this to call people out for being anti-race inclusive. Even if for just within Philly.

Think about what you're saying, people have ALWAYS used whatever iteration of the flag they wanted to. Do you think they're going to scour the city for the old flags and burn them?

 

[royalan]

LGBTQ already has plenty of flags, not just the original rainbow the masses are used to seeing. Here's a guide

Thank you.

 

[Infinite]

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

You're doing a lot. Who are you even talking to friend

 

[Beefy]

So oppression toward members of the gay community only counts if you're of colour now? Kk. I'll just act like i've never been discriminated against ever. Sounds great.


But then again, i'm white so my opinion doesn't matter and i'm immediately a racist.

POC are treated like shit in the gay community. In many cases even worse the POC who are 'straight'.