You mean exactly what I posted earlier? Okay.
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LGBThread |OT3| Friends of Dorothy!
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You mean exactly what I posted earlier? Okay.
Poltergust
Member
There's a simple solution to this: if you are unsure about something that someone says, ask them to clarify.
Unthinkable!
umop_3pisdn
Member
One is unspecific language and the other isn't, so nope.
You're right, that's much more direct than just using unambiguous language in the first place.
I do this a lot.
And in fact, that's basically at the root of this discussion. Progress.
So "flamboyant" is actually two different words? Double okay. I wasn't aware I used the wrong version of "flamboyant" in my earlier post where I did use the word "flamboyant" to describe my tastes.
Poltergust
Member
I do this a lot.
And in fact, that's basically at the root of this discussion. Progress.
I think what we're saying is that it's typically OK to use words like "masculine" or "feminine" to describe preferences.
I don't think anyone here disagreed that listing out what you like is bad.
But extremely inconvenient, hence those two words being used.
Seriously, if I had to list every kind of preference I had, it would take a while, and I may accidentally omit some.
*aintnobodygottimeforthat.gif*
The key word is traditional, it means that they are talking about the traditional stereotype, not that they feel that is way men should act, it is purely descriptive. If you have to list the ways that people do not appeal to you it will take a lot longer than simply saying too feminine, or too masculine. Stereotypes are not inherently bad, they are cognitive and descriptive shortcuts that can facilitate communication. The problem is when people believe the stereotype reflects some deeper reality or eternal truth.
umop_3pisdn
Member
What
I used the term "flamboyant" to describe my personal tastes. You told me to use that term instead. I say I did. Do you need an atlas or something?
It's an aside from the fact that I'm arguing for other posters in this thread. I personally use different terminology, but I'm defending those who use less accurate terms since they mean well, and because this jump-on-and-attack-him is a petty fight to pick.
^ I call it 2deep4u.
Personally, I like talking about language. It's fun. ._.
Once you go deeper and grasp at the reasons why you don't like those qualities (once you perceive and clarify which qualities it is you don't like), the result is that you might be regurgitating/perpetuating what your society thinks about men and women, and how they should act according to their roles.
Personally, I like talking about language. It's fun. ._.
An eternal truth like when someone says, "I don't like feminine men."?
You kids and your language.
Yet, I think looking beyond the thin veil of those two words, lies a hint of blind sexism. It's okay for women to be "feminine" but not for men to exhibit those qualities -- at least not for the men you like?
Once you go deeper and grasp at the reasons why you don't like those qualities (once you perceive and clarify which qualities it is you don't like), the result is that you might be regurgitating/perpetuating what your society thinks about men and women, and how they should act according to their roles.
Yep. The perpetuating cycle that spreads like a cancer through the LGBT community. "Your tastes are bad and wrong!"
From the people who are ostracized from society for having "bad and wrong" tastes.
Poltergust
Member
You're really overthinking this. There's nothing wrong with feminine men; I just find that kind of thing unattractive. They are free to be however they like, but as far as I'm concerned they are not in my dating pool.
Would you be saying the same thing if I preferred feminine men over masculine men? Because this sentence:
would not make any sense if you do.
Really, it's no different from preferring short hair to long hair, or tall guys to short guys.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
So what I got from reading all this is that I'm still going to use Feminine and Masculine because they're actual words and if someone gets offended I should just say sorry. Just like before.
Ugh.
Ugh.
Poltergust
Member
Basically lol.
I know that this post wasn't aimed at me, and that I am late to the discussion, but I think using these terms in general is problematic, even if one were to say that they disliked "masculine" men.
I don't fancy particularly fancy camp men, but I would never use the word "feminine" as a shorthand for that, because there's no link between being a woman and being camp. Similarly, I can see why some people see the association of being "gruff" or whatever with "masculine" as regurgitating the sexist bullshit that half the world's population lives with. Women can be gruff too.
(I also think terms such as "Man up!" are bullshitty too, but maybe that's just me.)
umop_3pisdn
Member
I guess, I don't really understand the context where someone is listing off preferences though, online dating or some other form of matchmaking I guess? I could see that, but I don't really understand a person's preferences being so accessible for classification either, so then for some reason perceived 'laziness' in this seems to count double for me.
I can understand this. I guess for me I regard attraction as being person specific so using stereotype as a tool seems kind of insensible.
Well that wasn't the post I quoted, and since I didn't read the one you were referring to I thought you were arguing that 'flamboyant' and 'feminine' meant the same thing, thus confusion.
I agree it is pretty frivolous, I was mostly arguing on the basis of etiquette anyways which isn't ethically significant. Full disclosure, I don't think Rm88~ and I are inclined to get along and I was just being an asshole for wholly personal reasons.
This is also what I was trying to get at.
No, not an eternal truth like that, since it isn't one. But if somebody thought that women SHOULD act a certain way, or men SHOULD act a certain way, rather than just describing what they are attracted to. It is descriptive rather the prescriptive. As long as it is describing what a person likes rather than how other people should behave it is non problematic to me. The problem is when people go from that to saying males should act a certain way.
That would make sense, because camp is totally different to feminine.
You guys made a huge leap. :|
A discussion on language and gender, is all I wanted.
What did you expect? You criticized specifically the preference of masculine guys over feminine guys. It's the exact same bollocks that used to fuel daily arguments in this thread before half the regulars dropped off the face of the earth. Bears vs. twinks, etc.
"Guys with no body hair aren't real men. What's the point of being gay if you just like girly guys?" That was a real post. A real, actual post in one of the previous threads.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Yeah but I think it's more meaningful to examine the significance of that, the "what" seems like a much less interesting question than the why or how.
There's a place and a time for everything. If I want you to know what I like, I'm shouldn't feel obligated to also include a super specific why or how. Ultimately, there's hardly any logic behind what arouses you and what doesn't.
But was it posted by anyone in this thread during this conversation? We need to be careful that we are arguing against real posts and viewpoints, not leftovers that we are still mad about.
I like men who have beards, broad shoulders, and a physically very masculine. That doesn't mean I think that is the only way men should be, or the only type of man that other men should be attracted to.
This is stupid. I'm not implying any kind of superiority or other sexist attitude, just that differences do exist.
Honest question here: What do you mean by "very masculine"? Because I'm not entirely sure I know what the concept of a "very masculine" guy is.
And I'm saying that I disagree entirely with the idea that there are any character traits specific to men or women, and that suggesting otherwise is, imo, pretty sexist.
umop_3pisdn
Member
The point I was trying to make was along the lines of what gerg said, if 'gendered traits' are incidental then it's questionable to attribute particular traits a gendered quality.
Yeah I thought this discussion was more about personality, personally. Secondary sexual characteristics are way more ostensible.
Yes, you do. It is the stereotype. Almost everybody is aware of the stereotype even if they think it is rubbish. Strong, stoic, patient, etc. Don't be obtuse just for the sake of making an point.
Isn't the stereotype of the "masculine" quite aggressive, rather than patient? Serious question here.
(I actually meant to question what you meant for a "physically masculine" guy, so sorry for the confusion here.)
umop_3pisdn
Member
I'll say first that this is maybe a perspective particular to me, though I'm not particularly literate on social issues and this sort of thing really isn't my wheelhouse so I can't really say that this agrees emphatically with my preferred perspective, but doesn't the image of someone who uses casual stereotypes as a heuristic seem pretty boring or lazy? But maybe I'm using the stereotype of people that use stereotypes, in which case shit irony etc.
IIRC science is now finding that sex based differences in human brains are overemphasized and pretty insignificant.
That's all I'm trying to dissect. People's understanding/viewpoint. I'm not valuing or saying that you're wrong in any way. I'm pulling from a wider understanding that feminine traits on men are undesirable in a general sense and why they're not desirable.
Short hair is a physical attribute, being tall is a physical attribute. It's not a social condition of being "feminine" or "masculine".
Unless you mean the physique of a person, then in that case feminine physique or masculine physique would be an applicable term. (I know this is tricky, but one is social and the other is just biological.)
Eg: If you like men, a masculine physique would be attractive to you. However, the supposed feminine characteristics that a man may have, are not. The second part is what I'm trying to really lay out.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
wow that was hard
umop_3pisdn
Member
I think the confusion about what peoples arguments are and what is really being referred to (body, personality, etc) might suggest that the communication could be more effective within this very thread.
And this is really interesting, because I imagine 100 years ago the images that people might have posted in response to my question would have been startlingly different. That guy's got very little hair at all, for example, which isn't (imo) what comes to my mind if you say "masculine" or "manly". To that end I would happily argue that that man is, in some way, quite effeminate.
I did see what seemed to be a typical attitude about it and wanted to go after that. I didn't tell anyone to change their views. I just wanted some mental stimulation before bed, and maybe some introspective thinking from anyone involved.
I tend to disagree. There are so many crazy things that seem illogical, but then make so much sense when you think about it.
umop_3pisdn
Member
I agree, making inferences on why you find certain things attractive is usually pretty fun and self-informative.
Personally I wasn't really discussing this in terms of body type, secondary sexual characteristics are way easier to stereotype, and bodies are just bodies anyways, I don't really see there as being very much personal integrity or identity bound up with it.
I'm not negating the difference between the sexes (male and female, to be most assuredly reductive on the matter), but then the effect that has on our (imo, socially-determined and highly-restrictive) concepts of binary gender (masculine or feminine).
Hormones make quite an impact on behavior. I'm pretty sure females being particularly sensitive during menopause is not related to society one bit. This is just an example, men have higher testosterone levels, so differences in personality do exist.
I'm not a woman, so I've never had any personal experience with menopause, but it seems pretty reductive to me to suggest that menopause affects all women the same. Even some cursory Google searching seems to suggest otherwise.
And, again, I vehemently disagree with the idea that, more generally speaking, identifiable differences in personality traits exist between men and women.
Ultimately, if this is the impasse that we've reached, I'm happy to leave the discussion here.
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