I'm with you totally, I even want to have a flamboyant gay friend, my straight friends think that its "awesome I'm no like them" and that pisses me off, but I've tried and we usually don't have much in common at the end. I do not turn away a guy if he's the stereotypical swishy gay though, and my female friends have a lot of friends like that so I just try to give them a chance, but we end up usually without nothing to talk about.
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LGBThread |OT3| Friends of Dorothy!
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I'm with you totally, I even want to have a flamboyant gay friend, my straight friends think that its "awesome I'm no like them" and that pisses me off, but I've tried and we usually don't have much in common at the end. I do not turn away a guy if he's the stereotypical swishy gay though, and my female friends have a lot of friends like that so I just try to give them a chance, but we end up usually without nothing to talk about.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
Just to make sure is the Coronado Cajeta the good kind
I'm sure he means some of these.
edit: beaten
I like smarts, even if smart people seem to be portrayed as mildly autistic sometimes.
I'm sure he means some of these.
edit: beaten
I like smarts, even if smart people seem to be portrayed as mildly autistic sometimes.
I've never found smarts that attractive actually. I guess it depends on what kind of intelligence you're talking about, but I don't think I ever really think about smarts when I think about qualities I'd like in a man.
See, I have like 5 female friends. My social circle consists almost entirely of straight males, so I find it really hard to feel identified with females or girly guys. If I find a gay friend who is very feminine, but we have a ton in common and we get along great, then I obviously wouldn't have any issue with being friends.
EDIT: I had never seen those things, lol. Cajeta comes in plastic containers in my world.
^ I discovered "vanilla" cajeta recently. Instant favorite.
EDIT: I had never seen those things, lol. Cajeta comes in plastic containers in my world.
^ I discovered "vanilla" cajeta recently. Instant favorite.
If you had universally moronic parents and relatives you would understand. It is very, very helpful.
My friends are almost always male, even though I look metro as spoonbread and use effeminate body language.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Smarts is good, but I guess I just see that as one of those basic requirements. Like in a relationship you have to want to be able to step into someone's shoes or try to see things from their perspective or it's kind of doomed, smarts is one of the components of that, but it doesn't really do much from me taken out of that context I think.
I find that I care most about how people make me feel when I'm around them. As lame as it sounds I think I like feeling cared for or emotionally 'safe', so I interpret people with a well developed feeling side as being more obviously able to provide that. Yet it's rare that I feel that, there's like some other mysterious component to it like rapport or charisma that I can't grok at very easily. Yet I fall in love with dream characters all the time for some reason because they have it. I know lots of people that care for me in some capacity, but it feels like a nuisance having to take consideration for the care they have for me and I start feeling bogged down by social obligation, go figure.
Only one dude I met had that quality and it was like a lightning bolt 'love at first sight' thing, but he was also straight and at best an acquaintance so I also got to idealize him from a position of ignorance.
I think feelings and being cared for are part of a healthy relationship. What you want is a nurturer.
umop_3pisdn
Member
I think compulsions are gross, but I guess we all have them. But people locked into a particular mode like on 'auto pilot', it's like they're not really there. I had a friend like that and it was like you could never get through to her, she was stuck in this ridiculous pattern and she never seemed to wake up to what she was doing or the greater 'why' or motive or anything. It's like they're a robot or hollow or something and not a real person in a way.
Yeah, which is weird to me for some reason. I think I try to avoid people caring for me so much and divert my attention away from my interior onto other people that sort of thing feels like it addresses a lacking.
Yeah, which is weird to me for some reason. I think I try to avoid people caring for me so much and divert my attention away from my interior onto other people that sort of thing feels like it addresses a lacking.
God yes. Instant failure on their part.
As an astronomer I would have to punch them in the face right there.
That's so Taurus!
BTW I don't really look for "roles" of "protection" and stuff. I basically want someone that I can treat like a friend. I'm admittedly not the most romantic human being on Earth, but friendship > romance anyway
As you should.
umop_3pisdn
Member
BTW I don't really look for "roles" of "protection" and stuff. I basically want someone that I can treat like a friend. I'm admittedly not the most romantic human being on Earth, but friendship > romance anyway
Weirdly enough I don't like mushy stuff, and I actually consider a romantic relationship to be a really good (non-platonic) friendship. I find that my temperament is something of a blend of feeling and intellect and the kind of thing I like is at one time breezy/casual/friendly and at other times less so. I do need to be kind of distant or aloof from bogs of emotionality on a regular basis.
I think some people maybe have a more refined sensitivity to feeling, though. Like if you find that sometimes almost any little thing or offhand comment can deeply wound you or you seem to passively absorb other people's 'bad vibes' somehow, you're probably going to place some priority on a similarity of sensibility just for practical reasons.
Fimbulvetr
Member
I think sentiments like this are proooooooobably what they're trying to get at.
Uh. Legit question, why would that be any different from using words like "girly" or "manly"?
umop_3pisdn
Member
It isn't, all of those terms seem pretty ambiguous and descriptively lazy.
umop_3pisdn
Member
"Traditionally associated with women" is really ambiguous. I think the reason people are bothered with it is that being within the community and being aware of the effemiphobia that exists within it people could articulate something more meaningful. "He's too pretty" or "he's too sensitive", or all of the above, etc, would communicate more and seem like less of a lazy or stigmatized label that you're attaching to them. But to do that you'd have to separate the threads of what 'effeminacy' and 'masculinity' are in reality, etc, it's a bit lazy to not even make the attempt and that's usually what it seems like.
Basically because saying a gay guy is "acting feminine" is generally short-hand for "He is exhibiting traits that society has deemed to be feminine through use of gender stereotypes and heteronormative expectations" and thus narrowing the spectrum of what it means to "be a man" and sort of implying a degree of right/wrong about the behavior. In casual conversation most people get the gist of what you're saying, but it also helps to further reinforce the stereotypes.
TLDR: It's the gender equivalent of saying someone "acts gay"
Cosmic Bus
pristine morning snow
Thank you.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Ok this works better.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Okay, so what's the correct term for "I prefer guys who are not feminine"? You're really not going to convince me to use "he's too pretty"
You missed the point, you exercise your critical faculties and articulate a meaningful criticism. Instead of keeping the object an arms length away with language you examine what about them in particular you aren't attracted to and then you do other people the service of making that legible.
You could even say you're generally not into pretty boys and dandies, that's still a fairly insensitive way of referring to people, but I doubt that will push anyone's buttons either.
Okay, so what's the correct term for "I prefer guys who are not feminine"? You're really not going to convince me to use "he's too pretty"
You can still say "femme" if you want, but I was just explaining how could be seen as offensive and, as with many culturally sensitive words, you should be considerate of the context, social history, and everything else that gets loaded into connotation. As umop pointed out, the neutral way to say it would be to point out the exact qualities of femme-ness you don't like. However, writing out all of the qualities that you feel are feminine could get cumbersome, so you just lump it under the stereotype of "femme" for paucity's sake, but by the very reductive nature of stereotypes, those being reduced down to one will probably take offense to it and now I've talked myself into a circle on the issue and come back to the beginning. Feel free to ignore my circular logic
To tell you the truth, I very strongly disagree with all of this. It's just, you're basically altering language. You are the people putting negative intentions in my harmless statement. But if it is indeed considered offensive then I won't use such terms from now on, and I apologize if anyone felt offended by how I worded it
umop_3pisdn
Member
To tell you the truth, I very strongly disagree with all of this. It's just, you're basically altering language. You are the people putting negative intentions in my harmless statement. But if it is indeed considered offensive then I won't use such terms from now on, and I apologize if anyone felt offended by how I worded it
A few insensitive or careless people can ruin things for everyone. But considering that gender is socialized it seems more reflective of reality to not regard it as some concrete thing.
Poltergust
Member
It's true that listing qualities that I would consider feminine, and therefore unattractive, would be more accurate (or doing it the other way around), but if one had to explain something like that in detail every time they are asked what they like, it'll be extremely troublesome. That's why people tend to group things under "masculine" or "feminine"; not to stereotype, but because there really isn't another convenient alternative and the message usually gets across like that.
I understand what some people mean by saying that "masculine" or "feminine" inappropriately is the gender-related equivalent of "that's gay", but at the same time, the word "gay" can be used in an appropriate context. Is there no such context for using "masculine" or "feminine"? Or are they simply taboo words?
A side question: if masculinity and femininity are not really well-defined, then is the Genderbread Person wrong in its "Gender Expression" category?
I understand what some people mean by saying that "masculine" or "feminine" inappropriately is the gender-related equivalent of "that's gay", but at the same time, the word "gay" can be used in an appropriate context. Is there no such context for using "masculine" or "feminine"? Or are they simply taboo words?
A side question: if masculinity and femininity are not really well-defined, then is the Genderbread Person wrong in its "Gender Expression" category?
Fimbulvetr
Member
Not sure 'bout other people, but I actually have no prob with using "masculine" or "feminine". Not necessarily perfect, but I can understand wanting a shorthand term for certain personality traits.To tell you the truth, I very strongly disagree with all of this. It's just, you're basically altering language. You are the people putting negative intentions in my harmless statement. But if it is indeed considered offensive then I won't use such terms from now on, and I apologize if anyone felt offended by how I worded it
"acts like a guy/man", on the other hand comes off as an othering statement due to the general tendency in men to be pressured into defining their self-worth in terms of masculinity(considered inherently good) and femininity(considered inherently bad). As in homophobes who say "fags aren't real men" and the really douchy phenomenon in a portion of the gay community that shame and blame feminine gay men for the existence of said homophobia. Imagine a black guy insulting another black guy for liking fried chicken or, and this last one isn't all that uncommon, women insulting other women for using make-up, even though there's nothing inherently wrong with these things.
That said, I totally support your right to not be attracted to feminine men. Whatevs.
It's not wrong, it just uses them as you said: not fully accurate, but there's no other convenient alternative.
I can see how "acting like a guy" could be perceived like that. In any case, I apologize again if it was offensive, and well, it was obviously not my intention to be rude.
About feminine and masculine, this is how I see it: because there are jerk people who hate color green, you can't say "green". Nope. You have to say... "lime-like, grass-like color". This totally makes things better and addresses the real problem. Also, we're a-ok with super broad generalization like twink, otter and bear, but not feminine and masculine - and yes, I've seen those terms used negatively.
About feminine and masculine, this is how I see it: because there are jerk people who hate color green, you can't say "green". Nope. You have to say... "lime-like, grass-like color". This totally makes things better and addresses the real problem. Also, we're a-ok with super broad generalization like twink, otter and bear, but not feminine and masculine - and yes, I've seen those terms used negatively.
I think you're missing the point again. No one is trying circle around something by making needless comparisons (green to lime-like).
Describing what you don't like specifically is better than to broadly reproach a certain group. To get at the root of what it is you are trying to say, instead of broadly saying something that could be ignorant.
Poltergust
Member
Incidentally, if someone were to be offended by the words "masculine" or "feminine", they are probably not my type in the first place lol.
Some people really shouldn't overthink things and harp on every word a person says. As long as the intent is known, whatever is being said should be fine. I like laid-back attitudes.
Some people really shouldn't overthink things and harp on every word a person says. As long as the intent is known, whatever is being said should be fine. I like laid-back attitudes.
"I do not like guys who act in a way that edges more towards mannerisms and tendencies that reflect something that in the grand scheme of things is more associated with the female gender than the male one."
....
"I don't like guys who act overly feminine."
Hm.
Incidentally, as said above, ideally I'd prefer a guy who doesn't hang himself like a poster onto the semantics of words, and rather just takes it as it's meant and move on.
....
"I don't like guys who act overly feminine."
Hm.
Incidentally, as said above, ideally I'd prefer a guy who doesn't hang himself like a poster onto the semantics of words, and rather just takes it as it's meant and move on.
In those cases some people like being labeled, others don't. Plus those labels are more geared to body types, than personalities -- because what's the personality of an otter, really?
Some people like labels like "masculine" or "feminine", and in this very thread personalities of twinks and bears have been discussed.
And those terms carry connotations behind them. "Twink" usually means you're always a bottom, always have to be more flamboyant, etc. I don't want to be called those things, because it doesn't reflect me. But if I'm called a "twink", then cool. I am, as far as body types go.
Those connotations and the pre-judgment that usually comes with them are just as ignorant as the ones attached to "feminine" and "masculine". But do we really need that war on words?
Poltergust
Member
I always thought that that word referred to anyone between 18-19 years old, regardless of body type...
I don't know about otters, but there are definitely implications of personality type drawn for twinks and bears (sub and dom, respectively). Granted those are stereotypes perpetuated largely by pornography, but they definitely have an impact on the broader connotations of those labels.
I don't always associate twinks with being bottoms . . .
In any case, it's not a war with words but a greater understanding of the logic that goes into expression.
Again, I don't associate bears as dominant and twinks as submissive, because there are submissive bears and dominant twinks. And this comes from my scientific research on pornography, of course. 8|
It used to mean "a young, inexperienced gay guy". Its meaning nowadays is "thin, young guy with little to no body hair". The connotations that come with it are usually a reflection of its old meaning, where "twinks" were usually taken advantage of and made to be submissive.
YOU don't. Just as WE don't associate "being feminine" with the connotations that it usually implies. People who use it that way do exist, but if someone isn't meaning ill will when using the terms, who cares? Fight the ignorant people, not the well-meaning people who use terms that have ignorance attached to its implications.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Yeah ok. The entire argument is about clearly articulating preferences. Say you don't like overly flamboyant personalities if that's what you mean. I really don't see the harm in using language more clearly and explicitly rather than expecting everyone to get your implied meaning. These things aren't static and people have different criteria, there may be enough shared cultural ground that people may understand what you mean (though maybe only when applied to particular cases, which kind of points to the ambiguity), but referring to stereotype is still lazy. I think people should generally have some care in how they address others, but 'diplomacy' comes somewhat naturally to me.
A person's intent isn't some discrete thing you can observe.
I wasn't being specific to you or accusatory, just giving 2 cents on the language and interpretation of labels thing. Regardless of personal views those personality connotations do exist for those labels in the broader social context.
edit; basically what kangi said.
My understanding of a topic may vary to degrees from others, and vice versa.
However, how can you disassociate "being feminine" from the connotations that it usually implies, if you're using it very much so to imply "being feminine." That's one for Philosoraptor if I ever saw one.
Basically. Exactly my point. This is hardly addressing the real issue, just imposing arbitrary language rules.
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