Support NeoGAF

[Fugu]

The purpose of the J20 protests was to shut down as much of D.C. as possible during the inauguration. The strategy - whether you agree with it or not - is to start a cascade of continuing disruptions that begin to paralyze civil society. This is a strategy that has been used successfully in Russia, Palestine, Ukraine, and elsewhere from 1917 to the present day. It is has little to nothing to do with 'sending a message'. This isn't the Civil Rights movement - which was a failure. The purpose is resistance. I totally get why people who want to reform, rather than abolish, the state would be against that. But you should know what it is you're criticizing.

This isn't that strategy, though. Destroying a random dude's car doesn't shut down D.C., it shuts down that dude. It also makes the movement less appealing to everyone with a brain.

 

[The Kree]

Then what meaning is there, in the grand scheme? It's a fancy taxi, nothing more.

Trying to compare it to actual action against the state is stupid, as it's clearly not. It's not state owned, operated, or funded. It's just a fancy taxi.

It's burned because they don't have the guts to go actual targets of the state. So you burn something random and claim it's a blow against them.

It's pointless to anyone who thinks bigger picture, and it hurts the folks trying to go for actual change.

But hey, it's easy, and safe.

I can see a limo as a symbol of wealth. Burning it sends a message of warning to wealthy people. Wealthy people, as it turns out, have significant influence on what goes on in the state and are the main contributors to ever increasing wealth disparity.

Maybe some wealthy people will get that message, maybe they won't. Let's find out.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I see meaning in it and you don't. Cool. Symbols impact everyone differently.

If a wave of people stormed Trump Tower you'd still have simpletons going "Aw guys come on, violence is bad," thinking they're saying something profound.

Symbols are the way a weak mind rationalizes acts like this AGAINST THEIR OWN.

It's the political version of a "script kiddie".

None of these hacks would have the balls to organize and assemble against government property en masse.

Spare us your empty rhetoric and come up with something substantive that is worth reading and actually sends a message that isn't lacking in courage of conviction.

 

[kame-sennin]

Burning shit achieves nothing, it doesn't persuade anyone to change anything, on the contrary. If those 365 days were actually used to try get a job, start something, pay some taxes, vote in elections, write investigative journalism, do something intelligent, that could achieve something. I struggle to come up with one instance where thugging 'activitsts' contributed to any meaningful societal change. And that includes taking down DDR and USSR.

No, I believe these clowns never voted, never really tried to get a job, and express their frustration to a world they feel somehow should cater to them without them even trying.

And the reactionary tendencies come right out...

The activists who decide to do it when there's a peaceful protet happening at the same time. If your message is so strong, why wait for the peaceful protest to act?

Anarchists and other radicals have been marching against Trump since before he got the nomination.

Yup. Same thing happened in Ferguson- bunch of outsiders came in to start shit.

This is a racist myth that's been used for over a century. The so-called "outside agitator" who comes in and riles up the peaceful negroes who would never think to resist without whites putting ideas in their heads.

This isn't that strategy, though. Destroying a random dude's car doesn't shut down D.C., it shuts down that dude.

Yeah, because that limo burning was the only thing that happened. A few hundred people have been planning to burn one guys limo since November 9th. After that, everybody went home.

 

[Rentahamster]

I honestly was not even making a statement by posting it here. I hadn't reread it so I'm not even sure how it completely fits but thought someone would find it interesting.

It's a good insight into showing just how "violence" has stirred positive change, in a historical context, and that the overall picture is full of nuance and cannot be summed up in a single phrase.

P.S. Dammit Amir0x, stop getting banned

 

[Shaanyboi]

I can't do anything about it. I don't have the money and I don't know the guy. I already acknowledged it's fucked up. Again, I'm not going to shut up because you think I should just sit and cry about it and wag my finger at rioters and that that should be the whole thread.

"I'm not going to shut up!" and yet ironically you're saying nothing. For the claim that you're not just "finger wagging," you're also giving nobody a single reason to find anything other than fucking disgust in this story.

 

[The Kree]

"I'm not going to shut up!" and yet ironically you're saying nothing. For the claim that you're not just "finger wagging," you're also giving nobody a single reason to find anything other than fucking disgust in this story.

OK.

 

[orangutang]

This is in the "Anarchist" play book. They infiltrate a peaceful protest and start breaking shit and throwing shit at the cops from behind groups of peaceful protesters. They hope they can turn the crowd into a full blown riot, but it rarely works. What it does do is put innocent people out to make a statement in danger and give an easy out to dismiss the entire cause of the protest. Same shit happens every year at the Mayday protest in Seattle.

To be fair the cops are gonna focus on innocent people regardless if its a blm protest, same with the DAPL protests. Anarchists don't even have to be there ruining shit for innocents to become the targets of police violence.

This is a racist myth that's been used since the 50's.

That too. It was used to justify violence against protesters and delegitimize the civil rights movement as well.

 

[littleworm]

If you're gonna go this route be bold, jump the White House fence and tip over Marine 1 or something. Burning some random dudes car just lets everyone see what cowards you are.

 

[DOWN]

I can see a limo as a symbol of wealth. Burning it sends a message of warning to wealthy people. Wealthy people, as it turns out, have significant influence on what goes on in the state and are the main contributors to ever increasing wealth disparity.

Maybe some wealthy people will get that message, maybe they won't. Let's find out.

I find this to be the most poorly justified, paperthin, shallow messaging I have seen regarding property damage. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of protest.

 

[The Kree]

I find this to be the most poorly justified, paperthin, shallow messaging I have seen regarding property damage. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of protest.

I didn't call it protest. I called it rioting.

 

[kirblar]

This is a racist myth that's been used since the 50's.

It's a racist myth that non-resident radical groups come to these types of events to deliberately instigate shit?

Because I'm not following, given that these types of groups tend not to be black people.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I can see a limo as a symbol of wealth. Burning it sends a message of warning to wealthy people. Wealthy people, as it turns out, have significant influence on what goes on in the state and are the main contributors to ever increasing wealth disparity.

Maybe some wealthy people will get that message, maybe they won't. Let's find out.

So basically

1. burn some random guys rental limo

2. ???

3. Fear struck into the hearts of the 1%

 

[Vector]

Resisting Trump will mean breaking a few windows. It's important to understand that thisis a contingency when the democratic process is perverted and failed us.

Where is GAF's resolve to resist Trump by all means?!

 

[activatethesmile]

I can see a limo as a symbol of wealth. Burning it sends a message of warning to wealthy people. Wealthy people, as it turns out, have significant influence on what goes on in the state and are the main contributors to ever increasing wealth disparity.

Maybe some wealthy people will get that message, maybe they won't. Let's find out.

Goddamn.

I dare you say this straight to the Muslim guy's face :/

Resisting Trump will mean breaking a few windows. It's important to understand that thisis a contingency when the democratic process is perverted and failed us.

Where is GAF's resolve to resist Trump by all means?!

Damn it man. If "by all means" you include burning property owned by some innocent people that anyone with half of a decent brain and heart should opt out then.

I am surprised to see all the "ANARCHY REIGNS!" responses in here, wow.

 

[orangutang]

It's a racist myth that non-resident radical groups come to these types of events to deliberately instigate shit?

Because I'm not following, given that these types of groups tend not to be black people.

The idea of agent provocateurs was used to delegitimize parts of the civil rights movement that were more disruptive. I'm guessing that's what he's referencing. Still we don't really need anarchists to be wilding out like this all the time.

 

[WaterAstro]

People who destroy property at a protest aren't there to protest. They're just there to start trouble.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The activists who decide to do it when there's a peaceful protet happening at the same time. If your message is so strong, why wait for the peaceful protest to act?

But then they wouldn't have anybody to cower behind and would be thrown in jail.

 

[DOWN]

I didn't call it protest. I called it rioting.

This doesn't contradict my statement.

 

[More_Badass]

I didn't call it protest. I called it rioting.

Less a riot, more a small tantrum. That message of warning you think you're sending might actually happen if entire populations were burning symbols of wealth but when it's just a small group juxtaposed against a peaceful protest at the same time, it's just a violent group burning stuff. That's all anyone will ever see and think, regardless of what you think it symbolizes

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Resisting Trump will mean breaking a few windows. It's important to understand that thisis a contingency when the democratic process is perverted and failed us.

Where is GAF's resolve to resist Trump by all means?!

The process worked just fine. The problem is people were so convinced their vote wouldn't matter that they didn't vote.

All they needed were 80,000 out of what, 300plus million to come out, and Trump would have been just a twitter crybaby. But stiggint or bernie or busting meant more to them.

 

[kirblar]

Resisting Trump will mean breaking a few windows. It's important to understand that thisis a contingency when the democratic process is perverted and failed us.

Where is GAF's resolve to resist Trump by all means?!

By beating him at the ballot box in '18 and '20 while doing what we can to pressure the swing GOPers and weak-willed Dems at the federal level and Dem legislatures/governors at the state level in the meantime

 

[The Kree]

So basically

1. burn some random guys rental limo

2. ???

3. Fear struck into the hearts of the 1%

Step 2 would be to keep doing it and keep doing similar acts until you see change.

My stance on violence has always been that it's inevitable and sometimes necessary. My stance is not that I like it. We know it works. We've bombed foreign countries into submission, we've bombed communities within our own country into submission. It's immediately noticeable. It's not some abstract thing we can't really see until it's too late like voter redistricting or fracking or defunding education.

 

[Valhelm]

Resisting Trump will mean breaking a few windows. It's important to understand that thisis a contingency when the democratic process is perverted and failed us.

Where is GAF's resolve to resist Trump by all means?!

Resist Trump and everything he stands for, but don't you dare violate norms of property

 

[More_Badass]

Step 2 would be to keep doing it and keep doing similar acts until you see change.

My stance on violence has always been that it's inevitable and sometimes necessary. My stance is not that I like it. We know it works. We've bombed foreign countries into submission, we've bombed communities within our own country into submission. It's immediately noticeable. It's not some abstract thing we can't really see until it's too late like voter redistricting or fracking or defunding education.

Are you really comparing your outbursts of violence to military bombings?

 

[Mr.Mike]

Resist Trump and everything he stands for, but don't you dare violate norms of property

Haven't we lost enough norms already?

Most of the people preaching resistance aren't anarchists.

 

[The Kree]

Goddamn.

I dare you say this straight to the Muslim guy's face :/

I wouldn't do something like that because I'm not an asshole. If I knew him, I'd console the guy. But he's not here. I'm having a conversation on the internet with strangers that I'd like to see go beyond, "Aww how sad." Is that so terrible, that I wanna discuss the bigger implications of such an act of violence?

 

[notworksafe]

Resist Trump and everything he stands for, but don't you dare violate norms of property

trump stands for muslim business owners?

 

[The Kree]

Are you really comparing your outbursts of violence to military bombings?

You can scale it upwards in your head. Do I really need to walk you through this? If enough people destroy enough symbols of wealth, a visible pattern forms and the people who control the actual wealth might be inclined to change their behavior.

 

[More_Badass]

I wouldn't do something like that because I'm not an asshole. If I knew him, I'd console the guy. But he's not here. I'm having a conversation on the internet with strangers that I'd like to see go beyond, "Aww how sad." Is that so terrible, that I wanna discuss the bigger implications of such an act of violence?

The problem is that you thiink such an act of violence carries bigger implications to anyone else beyond yourself

 

[Chittagong]

I can see a limo as a symbol of wealth. Burning it sends a message of warning to wealthy people. Wealthy people, as it turns out, have significant influence on what goes on in the state and are the main contributors to ever increasing wealth disparity.

Maybe some wealthy people will get that message, maybe they won't. Let's find out.

N=1, but fwiw, as a wealthy person who has not inherited a penny, and has worked since 12 years old to pay for every single videogame (since we are on a videogame forum), not having had a single period in 25 years of not working, I don't perceive a threat in a bunch of anarchist losers burning a limo, I think "jail these fucks, and maybe treat them to some night stick while you are at it."

Maybe the other kind of wealthy people will go 'oh shit sorry, I will change my capitalist ways'. Find out with this one weird trick

Spoiler

burn and break stuff

 

[blankempathy]

I wouldn't do something like that because I'm not an asshole. If I knew him, I'd console the guy. But he's not here. I'm having a conversation on the internet with strangers that I'd like to see go beyond, "Aww how sad." Is that so terrible, that I wanna discuss the bigger implications of such an act of violence?

There is no bigger implication. A limo was burned. Do you really think that anyone in the targeted demographic is going to give a shit? Teenagers rent limos for proms. Even your average 9-5 worker is capable of renting one of these. They're not some unattainable symbol reserved for the 1%

 

[DOWN]

I wouldn't do something like that because I'm not an asshole. If I knew him, I'd console the guy. But he's not here. I'm having a conversation on the internet with strangers that I'd like to see go beyond, "Aww how sad." Is that so terrible, that I wanna discuss the bigger implications of such an act of violence?

It's terrible that you believe you are advocating a concept that your posts on this very page make clear you can't comprehend.

Comparing bombing strategies on foreign states to... property damage at a failed riot. Incredible.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Step 2 would be to keep doing it and keep doing similar acts until you see change.

My stance on violence has always been that it's inevitable and sometimes necessary. My stance is not that I like it. We know it works. We've bombed foreign countries into submission, we've bombed communities within our own country into submission. It's immediately noticeable. It's not some abstract thing we can't really see until it's too late like voter redistricting or fracking or defunding education.

The best way to advocate for your fellow man is to destroy his stuff! That will send a message to those not affected in power! Yeah! WOOOOOO!

I hate to break it to you, but if the astranomical amount of murders every year in cities around the US haven't issued major changes - destroying your fellow man's property every so often won't, either.

Thousands and thousands of people are murdered every year with many of them in highly concentrated areas yet nothing changes. Hmmmm...

It's almost as if you're living in a bubble and not paying attention to the real world. Hmmmm. Nah. Can't be it. You've got this figured out.

We can tell.

 

[kame-sennin]

The Ukrainian revolution of 2014... took place in Ukraine in February 2014, when a series of violent events involving protesters, riot police, and unknown shooters in the capital, Kiev, culminated in the ousting of Ukrainian President, Viktor Yanukovych

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution

Setting aside the chances for success, rioting has taken down governments before.

 

[Trouble]

There is no bigger implication. A limo was burned. Do you really think that anyone in the targeted demographic is going to give a shit? Teenagers for proms rent limos. Even your average 9-5 worker is capable of renting one of these. They're not some unattainable symbol reserved for the 1%

Seriously, I can get a limo from the airport here for the same price as a cab in the middle of the day because they are in so low demand during the day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution

Setting aside the chances for success, rioting has taken down governments before.

Not without numbers. They had several hundred thousand in Kiev. A handful of hooligans burning a limo will have no place in the history books.

 

[The Kree]

There is no bigger implication. A limo was burned. Do you really think that anyone in the targeted demographic is going to give a shit? Teenagers rent limos for proms. Even your average 9-5 worker is capable of renting one of these. They're not some unattainable symbol reserved for the 1%

I dunno about you, but I can't afford to ride around in a limo every day. Wealthy people can. It's called a luxury vehicle for a reason, I think.

 

[kame-sennin]

Not without numbers. They had several hundred thousand in Kiev. A handful of hooligans burning a limo will have no place in the history books.

Less a riot, more a small tantrum. That message of warning you think you're sending might actually happen if entire populations were burning symbols of wealth but when it's just a small group juxtaposed against a peaceful protest at the same time, it's just a violent group burning stuff. That's all anyone will ever see and think, regardless of what you think it symbolizes

You don't get groups that large overnight. The US is very behind in terms of militancy compared to Europe and other places. I takes time to build movements. Incidentally, the attitudes shown in this thread are major impediment to such growth.

 

[The Kree]

The best way to advocate for your fellow man is to destroy his stuff! That will send a message to those not affected in power! Yeah! WOOOOOO!

I hate to break it to you, but if the astranomical amount of murders every year in cities around the US haven't issued major changes - destroying your fellow man's property every so often won't, either.

Thousands and thousands of people are murdered every year with many of them in highly concentrated areas yet nothing changes. Hmmmm...

It's almost as if you're living in a bubble and not paying attention to the real world. Hmmmm. Nah. Can't be it. You've got this figured out.

We can tell.

It doesn't change things because the violence is directed within, at ourselves.

But imagine if the violence were directed outward towards actual oppressors and their systems of influence. The limo burning can be symbolic of that, and if enough people do those types of things, the message gets stronger and stronger.

I'm not naive about what kinds of action people respond to. I just know violence can work. I'm not thrilled about it, but it's the way it is.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I dunno about you, but I can't afford to ride around in a limo every day. Wealthy people can. It's called a luxury vehicle for a reason, I think.

Owning one, perhaps, but renting one? Anyone can do that, and many people do for special occasions.

Destroying one doesn't effect them in the least, not their property, and plenty to go around. Some rich guy's pocketbook is unaffected.

You are trying to use symbols (random people's property, largely not in the group actually targeted) instead of actually hitting the target.

It's cowardly. This is why no one takes you seriously, you aren't attacking anything of actual note here.

 

[More_Badass]

You don't get groups that large overnight. The US is very behind in terms of militancy compared to Europe and other places. I takes time to build movements. Incidentally, the attitudes shown in this thread are major impediment to such growth.

For a movement to grow, don't you need a more widespread message and symbols that would attract people beyond those already at the foundation of said movement? Burning limos and rioting during protests aint winning hearts and minds

 

[Momentary]

I lump anarchists right up there with racists and the Westboro Baptist Church members. I've talked to these people and their way of thinking is just broken. It's as if something isn't functioning correctly in their heads. They are always so negative towards everything, think that everything is wrong with the world, and can't accept other people's points of view. I have never met any "Anarchist" that's ever had to work their way out of poverty to make a living. They've always seemed like well to do chaps who've got nothing else better to do than to cause mischief. These punks talk about a movement when there isn't one. No one wants to get behind their idiocy.

I've worked really hard to pull myself out of poverty. If I had some crazy person try to burn my livelihood down because they are trying use me to make some idiotic political statement just because I'm doing well in life, I don't know how much self control I would have.

 

[kame-sennin]

By beating him at the ballot box in '18 and '20 while doing what we can to pressure the swing GOPers and weak-willed Dems at the federal level and Dem legislatures/governors at the state level in the meantime

 

[Fugu]

Yeah, because that limo burning was the only thing that happened. A few hundred people have been planning to burn one guys limo since November 9th. After that, everybody went home.

No, but it is the thing being discussed in this thread, and there isn't really a broader context or plan that would make it okay.

I don't think anarchists are allowed to insult the effectiveness of the plans of others, and I say this as a person with more sympathies towards anarchists than most.

 

[The Kree]

Owning one, perhaps, but renting one? Anyone can do that, and many people do for special occasions.

Destroying one doesn't effect them in the least, not their property, and plenty to go around. Some rich guy's pocketbook is unaffected.

You are trying to use symbols (random people's property, largely not in the group actually targeted) instead of actually hitting the target.

It's cowardly. This is why no one takes you seriously, you aren't attacking anything of actual note here.

I'm not gonna get into a semantic argument about how affordable limousine rides are. You win. Everybody can ride a limo everyday.

 

[HoodWinked]

Destroying an icon of extreme wealth and marking it with a traditional American motto isn't counter-productive. It's a substantial blow against Trump and what he stands for, sending the message that many Americans are willing to fight back against the repressions of his government. You are free to take issue with destruction of property, but these actions are not meaningless.

lol for how incredibly left leaning gaf is and they're nearly unanimous on this only shows how insanely wrong you are.

 

[Fugu]

lol for how incredibly left leaning gaf is and they're nearly unanimous on this only shows how insanely wrong you are.

As I said earlier in this thread, I'm pretty well-versed in anarchism and have no trouble seeing how insanely wrong he is.

 

[More_Badass]

I'm not gonna get into a semantic argument about how affordable limousine rides are. You win. Everybody can ride a limo everyday.

Yes, they can. Riding in a limo is something a middle class person can do. Teenagers in high school can do it. A Lamborghini or Ferrari is a bigger symbol of weath than a limo will ever be

 

[Chichikov]

I lump anarchists right up there with racists and the Westboro Baptist Church members. I've talked to these people and their way of thinking is just broken. It's as if something isn't functioning correctly in their heads. They are always so negative towards everything, think that everything is wrong with the world, and can't accept other people's points of view. I have never met any "Anarchist" that's ever had to work their way out of poverty to make a living. They've always seemed like well to do chaps who've got nothing else better to do than to cause mischief. These punks talk about a movement when there isn't one. No one wants to get behind their idiocy.

I've worked really hard to pull myself out of poverty. If I had some crazy person try to burn my livelihood down because they are trying use me to make some idiotic political statement just because I'm doing well in life, I don't know how much self control I would have.

I'm an anarchist, if you ever want to talk to a real anarchist instead of the caricatures you invented in your head, I'm here for you.

As for this incident, this is unfortunate and maybe a bit counterproductive, but the well meaning and well behaved people's fear of anything that might result in real disruption is in my mind way more harmful for the society as a whole than property damage.
I hope people gofund him a new car or something.

 

[kirblar]

Yes, they can. Riding in a limo is something a middle class person can do. Teenagers in high school can do it. A Lamborghini or Ferrari is a bigger symbol of weath than a limo will ever be

Seriously. It's something you rent for a special occasion like a wedding or prom.