Herbspiceguy
Member
I didn't about all the Smedley stuff. I think that you must have serious mental issues to be capable of doing all that stuff, it's not just being a 'naughty hacker boy'.
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Lizard Squad DDOS Brings Down multiple Daybreak Studios titles
- Thread starter Liberty4all
- Start date
artsi
Member
I don't know about US or other countries but the Finnish court doesn't account a group's activities when sentencing a person, just what he has personally done. What he was charged and sentenced for is bolded here, in addition to network disruption (not PSN), data breaches and money laundering.
His other possible crimes (like these that are not bolded) are still under investigation and will go to court again eventually.
If he's guilty, he'll most probably get real jailtime considering he already has this suspended sentence on him. And lots of damages to Sony / Microsoft and others if they pursue any.
There's a huge number of people in this thread who plainly don't know what a suspended sentence is.
The whole point of a suspended sentence is to give that one chance - if the defendant carries out the same crime again within the probationary period, he's going to prison. No ifs, no buts, no retrial, just straight to prison*.
Whether you agree with the sentence or not, people should stop trying to spin it like no punishment has been handed out. It's a literal final warning, and essentially his last chance.
It's also only for one of the crimes (the DDOS, I believe, although I'd have to double check that), so there's still the possibility that immediate prison time will come for other crimes (especially the more serious ones).
Defending the sentence isn't defending the criminal.
*Obviously the terms of this are dependent on whatever was decided at sentencing...
The whole point of a suspended sentence is to give that one chance - if the defendant carries out the same crime again within the probationary period, he's going to prison. No ifs, no buts, no retrial, just straight to prison*.
Whether you agree with the sentence or not, people should stop trying to spin it like no punishment has been handed out. It's a literal final warning, and essentially his last chance.
It's also only for one of the crimes (the DDOS, I believe, although I'd have to double check that), so there's still the possibility that immediate prison time will come for other crimes (especially the more serious ones).
Defending the sentence isn't defending the criminal.
*Obviously the terms of this are dependent on whatever was decided at sentencing...
Yeah, if proven guilty he should get jail sentence.
aspiegamer
Member
What the actual fuck? On top of serving a suspended sentence he gets to take days off from the restrictions imposed? Christ. I wouldn't otherwise be panning your justice system were it not for the fact that there's obviously no remorse here. We were to never hear from Lizard Squad again I'd write this case up as a rehabilitation win. But, yeah, that's obviously not going to happen. I don't doubt the same kid will participate but he'll know to cover his tracks a lot better now.
If they want to even risk accidentally letting an IP address slip or any other identifying info/digital paper trail get recovered, let them. Honestly it's probably better for law enforcement to encourage the Twitter use. They're too stupid to do actual internet investigating but they can get this for free!
OR! More likely than not Twitter gives zero fucks and law enforcement hasn't even been in contact with them because our digital investigation services are 20 years behind, and, on top, Twitter would be dicks and not voluntarily give the data over because that would require effort. It would take a court order for any Twitter staff to ever get off his/her ass for any reason other than to get a soda.
astroturfing
Member
jesus that grave thing in the OP.. why?? that's just fucking vile.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Being able to continue school is good. Systems, proposals or arguments of any kind designed to deny prisoners the opportunity to educate themselves, or even read, are despicable.
Who cares, it's only video games amirite?
Reading this honestly made me a little sick to my stomach.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I think that alone should carry terror charges and a severe punishment - if they really have a recording and are able to prove it's this Finnish kid he should get an appropriate penalty.
I don't know.
The ability to train prisoners into soldier and remove them of any sense of humanity to better serve the greater good is a pretty good system too. Starcraft taught me that.
Also, I believe in ancient time, criminals were forced into the army to increase the nation strength and allowed free men to continue on to be a more productive member of the state instead of being drafted/enlisted.
And after these criminals performed their duty, they were rewarded to be free men and allowed a chance to officially enlist in the army with pays.
So this could be a good way of rehabilitation for criminals to benefit their nation and society.
He can be home schooled...from prison.
artsi
Member
We Finnish are already forced to military service (or civil service), criminals or not, lol.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Homeschool in prison means you don't get to socialize with other prisoners or learn about evolution and condoms.
Sorry, but a suspended sentence is virtually no punishment. Not only does he have to get caught, which only happened because he ran his mouth before, but he has to get caught doing the same exact thing. At the very least he should have been prohibited from using a computer for the two years (or more) because I can guarantee you he will be right back doing exactly what he was doing before.
I highly doubt if you were one of his victims you'd feel like this punishment was valid.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
If we put robots in prison then we wouldn't even need criminals anymore.
I agree.
Zomba13
Member
I fucking hate the whole "He's 17 he's a kid!". It's not like you magically gain knowledge and respect the moment you hit 18. Or 21. At that point you should know what is right and what is wrong and that your actions have consequences. You're not a 7 year old kid who might not understand that that a gun could have a bullet in it that could kill your little brother. You're 17, you've gone to high school, you know enough about the world to know that fucking peoples shit up in these ways isn't something you do by accident.
I'm not saying that their justice system doesn't work or that it won't work on this little shit but I am saying that "oh they are 17, they are little babby childs! They know not what their actions wrought!" is buuuuuuullshit.
Anyway I do think at the very least these shits should have no access to computers and be monitored in such a way that accessing a computer breaks their parole or whatever. IF their justice system says they don't get jail time, fine, it's their laws and what not, but at least don't let them play about with their weapons.
The true pillars of any modern education system.
That's certainly not the case in the UK, and I'm presuming it's not the case in Finland either - it's predicated on you not breaking the law again, not specifically carrying out the same crime.
Edit - I'd also like to add that my brother was given a suspended sentence for a fairly serious crime. During his probation he completely changed his ways, as the fear of going to prison was enough to put him on the straight and narrow. 10 years later, he's a changed man and contributing to society in a way he wouldn't have been if he'd gone to prison. Which is kind of the point.
Edit - from Wikipedia:
Chucke1992
Banned
I would recommend sending those "hackers" to tree felling in Siberia or another place for a couple of months.
Or put into a prison cell for multiple prisoners for a week in some notorious prison.
Because they should be afraid to do bad things knowing that the punishment will be severe. Like "if you get caught - you are done"
Or put into a prison cell for multiple prisoners for a week in some notorious prison.
Because they should be afraid to do bad things knowing that the punishment will be severe. Like "if you get caught - you are done"
protomouse
Member
Ever since the PSN attacks, Smedley has been very vocal about how he's going to hunt Lizard Squad down and make them pay. Doing so has provoked LS to "respond".
I am blown away by the people defending criminals here. Are you all serious when you say that things like swatting should not be punished? Just because the hackers are young?
The Brazilian government approved this law a few days ago: Brazils congress reduces age of criminal responsibility to 16
All of the world should follow this example.
The Brazilian government approved this law a few days ago: Brazils congress reduces age of criminal responsibility to 16
All of the world should follow this example.
Visualante2
Member
I think it's time for Daybreak to have another spokesperson. Smedley has got it off his chest, now it's time to stay in the shadows for a bit.
RyanPierre
Member
"Don't commit more crime or else" is not a punishment, it's a get out of jail free card. Not committing crime is how citizens are supposed to live.
That's not to say a suspended sentence can't be appropriate in some cases, but being forced to not commit crimes is not some special punishment; it's called ordinary life.
No, he wasn't. I'm not reading all the hot air in this thread which is likely to be a re-tread of all the frothing and bluster of the last, but everyone howling at the lenient sentencing is either unaware of or willfully ignoring the fact that the most serious charges haven't yet been faced. Saying he got off easy for swatting is counter to reality.
Should be down to 13 tbh.
I understood laws and orders, moral and ethic, right and wrong, life and death when I was in elementary school.
Couldn't be that hard with today generation due to the widespread knowledge of the internet age.
Ddos attacks hurt companies, generate revenue loss and ends up with employees getting sacked.
artsi
Member
I'm not defending him or his actions, just pointing out that it would be good to stay to facts, as he was not sentenced for swatting or bomb threats in this trial.
Those charges simply were not on the table yet. Just older things that were done before he was involved with Lizard Squad.
I know people are emotional here but please consider this.
Acquiescence
Member
After reading that OP, it boils my blood that this little fucking shit of a teenager has been punished so lightly for all the hideous criminal acts he's partaken in. Swatting is no laughing matter, it endangers human lives and we all know that, so why has he not received a more harsh sentence? Sends a great message to the multitude of would-be 'cyberattacks' out there planning to pull off similar shit like this.
Chucke1992
Banned
You can compare DDOS for example with inability for to use your money...let's say for week.Imagine if they did something that made you able to pay for anything by neither case nor credit card. Or even worse - stolen your money. And let's they they guy who did that got caught.
Would you just say - "don't do crimes again"?
DDOS should have the same punishment as robbing - with amount of losses that DDOS caused.
It's not meant to be a punishment - it's meant to be the justice equivalent of a Final Written Warning. It's almost never as black and white as just "DON'T DO SOMETHING WRONG OR ELSE PRISON".
As I pointed out in my edit, a suspended sentence can help turn someone around and help them become a contributing member of society, something which an instant prison sentence would not achieve. It's much better for society as a whole to have someone be a functioning contributor if there's a chance they can be rehabilitated. The suspended sentence is that chance.
I absolutely agree that there are times when that's not appropriate. In this case the Finnish courts have decided that solely for the DDOS, that it is. Whether you agree with that is arguable, but my comments were aimed at the myriad of people who are complaining that no action has been taken.
I certainly agree that his other crimes should probably attract much more punitive sentence, and taken as a whole, his crimes are abhorrent and should be punished. In this case though, it's just for one crime, and carries the potential for further punitive action should he break the law again during his probationary period.
Yaska
Member
So few points about Kivimäki. He was facing a max sentence, which is extremely rare in Finland. He got off because he was 15 at the time, and under Finnish law a person under 18 years doesn't get a prison sentence unless there are heavy reasons. He was a first timer, so the court played it safe. Also in that case MIT nor others had any demands. The sentence had nothing to do with psn or swatting or doxxing, it was about vcrrdit cards and adobe cloudflare vulnerabilities with a .h file vulnerability.
Most likely prosecutor will appeal, so Kivimäki might face prison time for these crimes. Alas there are multiple ongoing investigations ongoing against him, so he will go to jail next time he's in court.
What artsi has said in this topic is true, apart from a minor court process mistake. As I said in other thread, I have the full sentence and I am a nearly graduated lawyer in Finland, so if you have questions, shoot away.
Seriously, Don't source stuff to Kotaku about nongaming stuff.
Most likely prosecutor will appeal, so Kivimäki might face prison time for these crimes. Alas there are multiple ongoing investigations ongoing against him, so he will go to jail next time he's in court.
What artsi has said in this topic is true, apart from a minor court process mistake. As I said in other thread, I have the full sentence and I am a nearly graduated lawyer in Finland, so if you have questions, shoot away.
Seriously, Don't source stuff to Kotaku about nongaming stuff.
protomouse
Member
Read some more. He has not been convicted of 'swatting' (yet).
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Thanks for clearing up the process of your judicial system in this instance.
I see it as simple, bloated and gross egotism. Maybe that in itself could be a mental problem, though.
Still, they want to bite back harder than the opposition had done to them. It's typical ego behaviour -- granted there are points that others draw the line on that Lizard Squad dare to cross.
There are probably more of them now than people think. This cycle likely won't stop if they get more people.
DDOS > PS fans annoyed visibly, talk about lizard squad and provide them with notoriety > Journalists pick it up > Lizard squad amused, likes notoriety and upset caused. Happy to affect companies / people they don't like > rinse and repeat
DDOS > PS fans annoyed visibly, talk about lizard squad and provide them with notoriety > Journalists pick it up > Lizard squad amused, likes notoriety and upset caused. Happy to affect companies / people they don't like > rinse and repeat
boredandlazy
Member
By PS I sure hope you're meaning Planetside.
I got through the first page and can't believe no one mentioned how they sent him pictures of his father's grave with crude remarks. The rage..... I have right now after reading that. They get a "free pass" because their country won't do shit.
Nope stepping away before I go on a 10 paragraph rant about why these fucks need to serve hard time with murderers and gang members.
Nope stepping away before I go on a 10 paragraph rant about why these fucks need to serve hard time with murderers and gang members.
test_account
XP-39C²
People get angry because in some cases, there are little concequences for inflicting harm on to others. Doesnt feel like justice in those case.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
They really are a bunch of pathetic twats, they all need a good hard kick in the balls.
What else would it Mean? It's not like they restrict themselves to Playstation - they go to companies they don't like, audiences that show the most vitriol, talk about them, entertain them and give them the most noteriety
Smedley says he's personally listened to the recording of this kid calling in the bomb threat that downed his plane.
I think suspended jail time is a good measure for a large scale ddos attack. It's monetary damage mostly and I think it's semi fair to use ddos as activism for instance, so we shouldn't judge it so harshly. I'm assuming that the criminal charges for swatting and bomb scares are still brought to court at a later time though, it isn't really clear from the news article.
And I'm also optimistic this is the beginning of the end for them. Now that he's out in the open and already boasting he's sure to contact his buddies soon. Besides, the new ddos attack already gives suspicion that he might be violating his probation.
edit: disregard that, I suck clocks
And I'm also optimistic this is the beginning of the end for them. Now that he's out in the open and already boasting he's sure to contact his buddies soon. Besides, the new ddos attack already gives suspicion that he might be violating his probation.
edit: disregard that, I suck clocks
boredandlazy
Member
Oh, I know that. It's just that with what happened to Smedley etc. some of their most talked about exploits are Sony related.
That wasn't even a "Let's burn him!" comment, just an honestly surprised comment for the penalty... Yet you couldn't even wait for a few more replies dishing out that "you guys are salty" comment.
I'm salty that you can defend the decision so easily.
Pants is not right whether Finnish system works or not. The comment he accused of being salty does not deal with Finnish justice system in general but for this specific case. His crimes are unprecedented in terms of scale, affecting directly hundreds of people, indirectly millions, and also focusing on a single person at the same time, all the while causing serious financial loss on a corporate level. So whatever decision that comes out of this specific case may not necessarily represent the Finnish justice system and it's not wrong to ask for a more reasonable sentence in one's own view.
This guy had been caught for earlier for lesser but still serious cyber-crimes when he was 15 but apparently he hasn't learned anything, so a change of punishment style could be appropriate.