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[Furret]

I really don't want to get into another discussion about what we should do with these punks after the fact, but they probably have no moral issues with rioting because they don't feel like they are a part of our moral society. Give them a reason to join moral society instead of ostricizing them even further and suddenly they are invested in the community. Take away what little connection they have to moral society and suddenly they have absolutely no reason to try and be moral or respectful. (Besides being empathetic human beings, which is pretty obvious that they aren't.)

Again, I'm over here in America and can't fully understand the anger that is being felt by the general populace of London so really I don't know shit.

No. They should give us a reason to let them join society, not the other way around.

All the effort should come from them, if they show none they should rot in jail and/or without benefits.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Take away what little connection they have to moral society and suddenly they have absolutely no reason to try and be moral or respectful.

They take everything possible from the very same government they claim to be angry with.

 

[Osiris]

I really don't want to get into another discussion about what we should do with these punks after the fact, but they probably have no moral issues with rioting because they don't feel like they are a part of our moral society. Give them a reason to join moral society instead of ostricizing them even further and suddenly they are invested in the community. Take away what little connection they have to moral society and suddenly they have absolutely no reason to try and be moral or respectful. (Besides being empathetic human beings, which is pretty obvious that they aren't.)

Again, I'm over here in America and can't fully understand the anger that is being felt by the general populace of London so really I don't know shit.

The problem is that theres a lot of long distance hand-wringing making guesses towards motivation, some of which is a case of political use of the events to push narratives and themes for political support purposes only.

Some of us know these type of people, and even some of those involved, and for those we know it's simply a case of "Because we can Bro! Innit?", there is NO fear of any consequences whatsoever, not because they don't feel the consequences will worsen their lives much, but rather because they don't think there will be any consequences at all if they are caught, beyond a caution (a telling off from the police and asked not to do it again) or an ASBO.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

They aren't going to prove they can contribute to a society that pushes them away as far as they can. You need to provide a route for them to prove what they can contribute. Or even show them how to contribute.

They could start by clearing up the mess they have made ad making reparations to the businesses they have ruined. Not that they would, and they would probably want paying for it as well.

They could contribute by not being thieving arsehole scumbags, that would be enough. Benefits should be tied to criminal records. If you harm society, society harms you.

 

[SmokyDave]

They aren't going to prove they can contribute to a society that pushes them away as far as they can. You need to provide a route for them to prove what they can contribute. Or even show them how to contribute.

Already been done. Didn't work.

I'm not sure you can comprehend what type of people we're dealing with here.

No. They should give us a reason to let them join society, not the other way around.

All the effort should come from them, if they show none they should rot in jail and/or without benefits.

Also, this. We've extended our hand enough. Next time it should be a clenched fist with knuckledusters.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

One thing is for certain though: if they thought they had it bad before, then it's going to get a lot worse for them now after the public has turned against them. No sympathy on my part. I hope to see more batons landing on heads. PM me all footage you find of that. It'll make a compilation for the next good news thread

 

[marrec]

They take everything possible from the very same government they claim to be angry with.

Sure, because the government they claim to hate is happy to give it to them. I'm not saying that we don't threaten their benefits in some way, but if you strip away everything from them then what little control you had is suddenly gone. Instead use the benefits as a way to direct them towards a place in society, even if that place is in Afghanistan or what have you.

These 'scum' are still able bodied (er... for the most part) people and by almost literally sweeping them under the rug would be not only wasteful but short-sighted.

One thing is for certain though: if they thought they had it bad before, then it's going to get a lot worse for them now after the public has turned against them. No sympathy on my part. I hope to see more batons landing on heads. PM me all footage you find of that. It'll make a compilation for the next good news thread

It's just going to split the divide further and cause problems down the line.

But that's in the future, lets work out how we can gain retribution from these punks right now.

 

[marrec]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Wazzim]

Giving these guys 'something to lose' wont work at all, they mostly are people with very low IQ and knowledge of anything relevant in the world we live and work in.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Giving these guys 'something to lose' wont work at all, they mostly are people with very low IQ and knowledge of anything relevant in the world we live and work in.

Once again, I bet if you asked them about Mark Duggan, most would think it's a new store they can loot.

 

[Speedymanic]

Smh, 'protecting the neighbourhood'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHj9l7E-vg&feature=player_embedded

:/

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Once again, I bet if you asked them about Mark Duggan, most would think it's a new store they can loot.

Yup, the way these arseholes have hijacked what could have been a somewhat legitimate protest (he was still carrying an armed weapon, so not really legitimate) is disgusting and people who claim that this looting and rioting is a response to the original case are idiots.

 

[radioheadrule83]

My mate is going to be in the audience for Question Time tomorrow and has been asked to submit question(s). I've suggested:

Ask the politicians present why all they do is talk in flowery PR phraseology. Tell them they are just as toothless as the police have been!

Ask them whether they agree that the time for touchy feely, sociological naval gazing is over. Ask them if they agree that this has mainly been so destructive because we have spent the last three decades looking at our criminals and seeing victims and sad stories where there are none.

Ask Dimblebey himself if the BBC and other media organisations should feel in part responsible for helping to dream up these hard-life narratives and criticisms of society - that really only serve to excuse and partially exonerate the perpetrators.

Ask the entire panel how this can be anything to do with society when generations before have put up with much worse and never resorted to such stupid anarchism and chaos... people who lived through wars, much deeper depressions, recessions and national disasters, people who had to fight for women's suffrage, face up to real institutional racism, rail against mine closures, and unpopular poll taxes... people who had less money, fewer educational opportunities, and people who didn't live in this wonderful technological age of plenty.

None of them were as destructive as our stupid, sloped foreheaded, Neanderthal scallies and chavs. Some of the other people who have been charged: a teacher, a graphic designer, university undergraduates... the idea that this is some kind of societal anger bubbling over is just bollocks!

Hopefully he can find a way to condense some of that down into a single question.

As for the current discussion:
we should lift up those willing to be lifted, and refuse to reward those content to live in a situation and live with a lifestyle and attitude that really only causes them harm.

This entire saga has radicalised me against mindless chav scum in a way that I never thought possible. We have tried the carrot... it needs more stick.

Smh, 'protecting the neighbourhood'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHj9l7E-vg&feature=player_embedded

:/

This lot aren't helping. They're just an older, more racist generation of chavs themselves. Same thing... fuck em all.

 

[RukusProvider]

They aren't going to prove they can contribute to a society that pushes them away as far as they can. You need to provide a route for them to prove what they can contribute. Or even show them how to contribute.

Cut out their benefits.
Release the police shackles to deal with them appropriately.
Keep their quarantined in their ghetto's
They'll eventually turn on each other and eat their own
Accept that some good people will suffer in those areas if they can't get out

 

[Goron2000]

A fairly diverse group of extremely unpleasant people which has plagued Britain for over a decade and are becoming a genuine threat to the country's future. They exhibit at least several, if not all of the following characteristics:

- Routinely gets drunk on cheap drink (which, I might add, is easily obtainable)
- Wears tracksuits all the time (and usually lots of cheap jewellery)
- Heckles and / or starts fights with people for no reason
- Does not work, has no wish to work, better themselves, or contribute to society (despite sometimes claiming that they do), and claims jobseeker's benefit to survive
- Extremely promiscuous and has lots of children by lots of different partners, paying little regard to their upbringing
- Is very poorly educated (which is not a reason to hate someone in itself, I know, it's because they don't want to learn) and speaks in a primitive and offensive manner

American white trash, basically, but they aren't always white, and even for trash, they are pretty terrible human beings.

Critics claim that it's just middle-class snobbery, but it has nothing to do with class. They are just horrible people.

I'm going to sound like my dad here but it has everything to do with class and the way you are talking about these people tells me you are middle class. Chavs are a product of the class system, there will always be Chavs in some form. For decades the working class has produced "Chavs" they just get a new image every few years. Before them we had Teddy boys, Punks, Bikers, Mods, Skinheads and the hundreds of variants around the world.

Coming from a working class background many of them are from broken homes, have little to no money and have very little political representation, a combination of all these things brings rebellion and disregard of "proper" conduct. You shouldn't blame the people, you should blame the society that failed them.

 

[SteveWD40]

gmpolice GM Police
Rumours and gossip everywhere - NO disorder at the moment. Follow this official Twitter feed and we will keep everyone uptodate

To be fair, only the hardcore would come out in this weather.

 

[gerg]

Ignorance is not the same as lack of intelligence.

 

[planar1280]

 

[marrec]

Giving these guys 'something to lose' wont work at all, they mostly are people with very low IQ and knowledge of anything relevant in the world we live and work in.

So they are just a lost generation and will be used as an example in all the texts books for future generations?

At least that's a purpose.

Anger Edit: The problem is that the problems that led up to this supposed 'Lost Generation' won't be considered and will just happen again.

 

[dalin80]

Cannon fodder works for me too.

mine clearance is noble occupation.

 

[Dakota47]

Cut out their benefits.
Release the police shackles to deal with them appropriately.
Keep their quarantined in their ghetto's
They'll eventually turn on each other and eat their own
Accept that some good people will suffer in those areas if they can't get out

Set up camps and gas all of 'em in other words. MUST ... NOT ... GODWIN.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Smh, 'protecting the neighbourhood'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHj9l7E-vg&feature=player_embedded

:/

Honestly, if I'm ever in London and a riot breaks out my Jewish Ass wants to be hanging out with the Sikhs, Turks, and Muslims! Honestly any sensible person should look at the EDL and say, sorry guys I'm hanging out the with immigrants who protect there stuff. lol

 

[Sipowicz]

Smh, 'protecting the neighbourhood'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHj9l7E-vg&feature=player_embedded

:/

but der EDL and BNP will save us!

fucking dicks. giving a bad name to all the white people out there making legitimate attempts to rebuild and defend their communities

 

[marrec]

Set up camps and gas all of 'em in other words. MUST ... NOT ... GODWIN.

It's been difficult to not Godwin it up with all the calls to kill em all and they are non-human scum.

mine clearance is noble occupation.

See! Solutions people, this guy has the right of it!

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm going to sound like my dad here but it has everything to do with class and the way you are talking about these people tells me you are middle class. Chavs are a product of the class system, there will always be Chavs in some form. For decades the working class has produced "Chavs" they just get a new image every few years. Before them we had Teddy boys, Punks, Bikers, Mods, Skinheads and the hundreds of variants around the world.

Coming from a working class background many of them are from broken homes, have little to no money and have very little political representation, a combination of all these things brings rebellion and disregard of "proper" conduct. You shouldn't blame the people, you should blame the society that failed them.

You can't use the term 'working class' to describe people that have never, ever worked a day in their lives. We need a new class descriptor because 'working' class is completely misleading and insulting to the true working class.

 

[neutralgamer02]

No. They should give us a reason to let them join society, not the other way around.

All the effort should come from them, if they show none they should rot in jail and/or without benefits.

Yeah, that is the problem with these riots. I can only see them making the situation worse for the groups that feel the need to riot. I think they will be further otracized and shunned, and you guys may have more social problems and riots in the future. This is in turn make life worse for everyone, because there is no way you can shun a group of before it starts effecting you as well.

Hopefully, that wont happen, but from reading this thread and the seeing the mood of the UKers, I can't see the opposite happening.

Pretty sad really.

 

[dalin80]

For decades the working class has produced "Chavs".

no.

The last word a chav would be able to spell is 'job', they are the product of council estate scum who have spent generations on the dole claiming any benefit in sight. saying chavs are form the working class is a insult to those of us who work for a living.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Coming from a working class background many of them are from broken homes, have little to no money and have very little political representation, a combination of all these things brings rebellion and disregard of "proper" conduct. You shouldn't blame the people, you should blame the society that failed them.

Fuck off. I do blame them. I blame them, their shitty parents, their shitty attitudes, and their moronic peer groups pouring their time and egos into being 'bad men' or whatever. Its fucking pathetic. And I blame people like you going out of your way to blame EVERYONE ELSE, to blame society, for THEIR acts, THEIR choices. We have had three decades or more of trying to find ways to care and nurture for this over-privileged underclass of scally thugs, none of this leftist, flowery bullshit works. We have to tell them what is and isn't acceptable in our society and ENFORCE it. Waxing philosophical about the 'roots' of the problem is self-masturbatory nonsense that over-intellectualises the psychology and the thought processes of these people. They are a mob. A mindless, unsympathetic, heartless, self-interested mob of GIANT DICK HEADS.

 

[Goron2000]

You can't use the term 'working class' to describe people that have never, ever worked a day in their lives. We need a new class descriptor because 'working' class is completely misleading and insulting to the true working class.

I agree that the working man shouldn't be lumped with the unemployed but separating them further wont help anybody.

 

[RukusProvider]

Set up camps and gas all of 'em in other words. MUST ... NOT ... GODWIN.

You're right. Keep giving them free money knowing full well they have no plan to contribute to society and only act as a parasite.

With my suggestion, either they'll kill each other off or eventually enough opposition will rise in their communities over time (decades) which will start a transition. The current method of support DOES NOT WORK and cannot continue.

The other options is long jail sentences with hard labor. Force them to contribute and learn the severe consequences for criminal behavior.

 

[marvelharvey]

You can't use the term 'working class' to describe people that have never, ever worked a day in their lives. We need a new class descriptor because 'working' class is completely misleading and insulting to the true working class.

"But I don't work."

 

[storafötter]

I agree that getting rid of benefits won't improve the situation but worsen. They deserve the worst, but unfortunately that won't cause improvements but the opposite. I don't know how effective and useful local forced community services have worked, but I can only see that as a viable punishment if they won't be kept in jail. You have to teach them responsibility someway as schools can't take care of the lack of parenting.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I agree that the working man shouldn't be lumped with the unemployed but separating them further wont help anybody.

These people are part of the underclass, though they're propped up by nothing but government support. Even there in that category their inclusion is an insult to the homeless.

 

[Furret]

I'm going to sound like my dad here but it has everything to do with class and the way you are talking about these people tells me you are middle class. Chavs are a product of the class system, there will always be Chavs in some form. For decades the working class has produced "Chavs" they just get a new image every few years. Before them we had Teddy boys, Punks, Bikers, Mods, Skinheads and the hundreds of variants around the world.

Coming from a working class background many of them are from broken homes, have little to no money and have very little political representation, a combination of all these things brings rebellion and disregard of "proper" conduct. You shouldn't blame the people, you should blame the society that failed them.

Completely and utterly wrong.

These scum are not working class either literally or politically. They are an underclass of their own making and deserve neither sympathy nor any more handouts.

 

[Osiris]

Fuck off. I do blame them. I blame them, their shitty parents, their shitty attitudes, and their moronic peer groups pouring their time and egos into being a 'bad man'. Fucking pathetic. And I blame people like you going out of your way to blame EVERYONE ELSE, to blame society, for THEIR acts, THEIR choices. We have had three decades or more of trying to find ways to care and nurture for this over-privileged underclass of scally thugs, none of this leftist, flowery bullshit works. We have to tell them what is and isn't acceptable in our society and ENFORCE it. Waxing philosophical about the 'roots' of the problem is self-masturbatory nonsense that over-intellectualises the psychology and the thought processes of these people. They are a mob. A mindless, unsympathetic, heartless, self-interested mob of GIANT DICK HEADS.

Indeed, these are not disenfranchised poor, they are riced up Renault Clio driving, 40"+ HDTV owning, £100+ trainer-wearing assholes who make a mockery of the term "poor".

 

[BlazingDarkness]

I'm going to sound like my dad here but it has everything to do with class and the way you are talking about these people tells me you are middle class. Chavs are a product of the class system, there will always be Chavs in some form. For decades the working class has produced "Chavs" they just get a new image every few years. Before them we had Teddy boys, Punks, Bikers, Mods, Skinheads and the hundreds of variants around the world.

Coming from a working class background many of them are from broken homes, have little to no money and have very little political representation, a combination of all these things brings rebellion and disregard of "proper" conduct. You shouldn't blame the people, you should blame the society that failed them.

NO. They are not working class, they are the underclass.

And this is fucking bullshit as well, don't blame the people? Fuck that noise, it's precisely them who are to blame, they have failed the society, the society gives them every opportunity to better themselves and they bite the hand that feeds, fuck them.

 

[marrec]

Fuck off. I do blame them. I blame them, their shitty parents, their shitty attitudes, and their moronic peer groups pouring their time and egos into being a 'bad man'. Fucking pathetic. And I blame people like you going out of your way to blame EVERYONE ELSE, to blame society, for THEIR acts, THEIR choices. We have had three decades or more of trying to find ways to care and nurture for this over-privileged underclass of scally thugs, none of this leftist, flowery bullshit works. We have to tell them what is and isn't acceptable in our society and ENFORCE it. Waxing philosophical about the 'roots' of the problem is self-masturbatory nonsense that over-intellectualises the psychology and the thought processes of these people. They are a mob. A mindless, unsympathetic, heartless, self-interested mob of GIANT DICK HEADS.

Feel better now?

These people are products of government policies true, but they are also a product of apathy from most everyone else. There are a few people in society that really want to put the time in to try and integrate these type of people but for the most part everybody just tries to ignore them.

It's not like there are thousands of genetically predisposed Londoners who through some magical breeding program have produced an army of mindless slobs.

Wait I get it! We like dehumanizing these people because the farther away we distance ourselves from the filth the less we see ourselves in them. They cannot be human because we would never do anything of the sort! They cannot be a part of our society because they are not human! Something is Genetically WRONG with them! Can't be some sort of shared responsibility to humanity as a whole that was ignored for decades and decades until a group of over-privliged but utterly ignored people raised a group of over-privliged, utterly ignored, and completely cynical and bitter kids.

Edit:

Can we go back to talking about how to help people who lost shops and homes to the riots? At least we can agree on that.

 

[mclem]

Looks like the e-petitions site is about to have it's first success in triggering a parlimentary debate, it's currently amassing signatures at a rate of 5000 per hour

(Parlimentary debate on a petition has been supposedly guaranteed for any petition receiveing greater that 100,000 signatures).

Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits.

Responsible department: Department for Work and Pensions

Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them.

Number of signatures:
75,263

Surely if this were to happen, people of a certain mentality would come to the conclusion that you may as well steal, because if you get caught, you'll get food and board for a while?

 

[thezerofire]

Really good post on Reddit why this is happening

Read HEYMANRIGHTONBRO's post too

 

[Sneds]

Fuck off.

Stop telling other posters to fuck off please. It's okay to disagree with people but you can be civil about it.

 

[SmokyDave]

I agree that the working man shouldn't be lumped with the unemployed but separating them further wont help anybody.

Separating them further will help people like me that actually are working class. We're fucking sick of being lumped in with these feral shits. My parents couldn't afford a car until I was 15. Me and my sister got a 14" black and white TV to share for Xmas when we were 11 and it was thought of as a HUGE gift. Our cousins came around to see it. We couldn't have bicycles until we got lucky one year when my dad was made redundant. We both got £25 second hand bikes and rode them for miles. I've never even thought of harming another human being or their property to help myself materially.

It's obvious that these people are a class below the working class and they should be openly labelled as such. Shying away from confronting these people and their rotten 'values' got us here in the first place.

 

[leadbelly]

This just in: Looter Alexis Bailey walks into lamppost
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPdQCuc7CZo

 

[The Elite]

Really good post on Reddit why this is happening

Read HEYMANRIGHTONBRO's post too

It's happening because people want free shit and to destroy things.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Police have the guy who set fire to Miss Selfridge's and one of the punks who mugged that kid who was injured.
A good day so far.

 

[ThisWreckage]

It's happening because people want free shit and to destroy things.

These people pushed and were not pushed back. Now they view the law enforcement as under equipped pussies and everything in their eyes is ripe for the taking.

 

[Furret]

Feel better now?

These people are products of government policies true, but they are also a product of apathy from most everyone else. There are a few people in society that really want to put the time in to try and integrate these type of people but for the most part everybody just tries to ignore them.

It's not like there are thousands of genetically predisposed Londoners who through some magical breeding program have produced an army of mindless slobs.

Wait I get it! We like dehumanizing these people because the farther away we distance ourselves from the filth the less we see ourselves in them. They cannot be human because we would never do anything of the sort! They cannot be a part of our society because they are not human! Something is Genetically WRONG with them! Can't be some sort of shared responsibility to humanity as a whole that was ignored for decades and decades until a group of over-privliged but utterly ignored people raised a group of over-privliged, utterly ignored, and completely cynical and bitter kids.

Edit:

Can we go back to talking about how to help people who lost shops and homes to the riots? At least we can agree on that.

I do not see anything of myself in them. I do not see anything of them in anyone I know, including people I hate and despise.

I feel more kinship with a stray dog than I do any of these filthy scumbags.

It is not society that told them not to go to school and not to try to better themselves. Society offered them the chances to do these things and they spat in our collective faces.

They are already completely cynical and bitter kids, that is why everyone hates them. The opportunities are still there for them to help themselves, but from now on if they do not take them they should beaten back and treated as the vermin they so clearly are.

 

[marrec]

This thread shows me that Empathy is a spectrum disorder unique to humans. Most people fall in the middle and can opperate in normal society without any outward ill effect, but some people fall on the fringes and simply cannot integrate.

I think I'm on the fringe.

I feel more kinship with a stray dog than I do any of these filthy scumbags.

 

[ghst]

Fuck off. I do blame them. I blame them, their shitty parents, their shitty attitudes, and their moronic peer groups pouring their time and egos into being 'bad men' or whatever. Its fucking pathetic. And I blame people like you going out of your way to blame EVERYONE ELSE, to blame society, for THEIR acts, THEIR choices. We have had three decades or more of trying to find ways to care and nurture for this over-privileged underclass of scally thugs, none of this leftist, flowery bullshit works. We have to tell them what is and isn't acceptable in our society and ENFORCE it. Waxing philosophical about the 'roots' of the problem is self-masturbatory nonsense that over-intellectualises the psychology and the thought processes of these people. They are a mob. A mindless, unsympathetic, heartless, self-interested mob of GIANT DICK HEADS.

everyone is a product of their influences. the net result of this mob's influences is that they are dickheads.

the questions of "how do we improve parenting", "how to we impel people to social responsibility" and "how do we prevent a culture of egomaniacal, rude boy criminality" can all be rolled into the question of "how do we prevent people from becoming dickheads?".

this is a question that can be aimed at every level of society, and is one as much of the human condition as it is social circumstance.

until we can answer that question, it's all about reducing the collateral damage that a dickhead can produce. this ranges from arming riot police with baton rounds to imposing regulation on investment bankers who will sink an entire economy to the benefit of their severance package.

 

[MLH]

Really good post on Reddit why this is happening

Read HEYMANRIGHTONBRO's post too

Couldn't have said it better myself, people seem to forget Mark Duggan was a criminal, he had a gun and was therefore considered a threat.
And the only people involved in looting and destruction are opportunists, only there because they feel they can get away with it (at the time). Police need to stop it on the streets not arresting people from CCTV, or these riots wont stop.

 

[Wazzim]

Fuck off. I do blame them. I blame them, their shitty parents, their shitty attitudes, and their moronic peer groups pouring their time and egos into being 'bad men' or whatever. Its fucking pathetic. And I blame people like you going out of your way to blame EVERYONE ELSE, to blame society, for THEIR acts, THEIR choices. We have had three decades or more of trying to find ways to care and nurture for this over-privileged underclass of scally thugs, none of this leftist, flowery bullshit works. We have to tell them what is and isn't acceptable in our society and ENFORCE it. Waxing philosophical about the 'roots' of the problem is self-masturbatory nonsense that over-intellectualises the psychology and the thought processes of these people. They are a mob. A mindless, unsympathetic, heartless, self-interested mob of GIANT DICK HEADS.

QFT