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London riots spreading through UK

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jufonuk

jufonuk

not tag worthy
ffs eltham is letting everyone down, the people that were ready to protect last night have reverted to type....no need to facepalm....great!!

most of the people on facebook that were for the people looking after eltham are now telling them to stop and go home, try and stay on the side of working with the police and do not make it about race....

can hear more helicopters around...
if i am rambling lack of sleep for the last couple of nights and early shift this morning it's because I am shattered :( i gotta sleep will do soon..
 
S

sfedai0

Banned
Sky Chief said:
Of course we do. However, as an American who lived in the UK for seven years you do see a lot more violence and boorish behavior in public in the UK.

My theory is that it is the lack of gun ownership. In the UK I would regularly see fights at bars and nightclubs. It happens in the US as well but not nearly as frequently and I think its because people know in the back of their mind that it might not be worth starting something because the guy you're talking shit to might have a concealed weapon permit.

Furthermore, you would not see the same level of rioting and looting in the UK if every shop owner was guarding their property with a shotgun and the police actually carried weapons. Legalized gun ownership makes people think twice about being a jackass.
Click to expand...


Thankfully, not all Americans are of the same opinion. Japan gets on quite well without guns.
 
Z

Zenith

Banned
Sky Chief said:
Of course we do. However, as an American who lived in the UK for seven years you do see a lot more violence and boorish behavior in public in the UK.

My theory is that it is the lack of gun ownership. In the UK I would regularly see fights at bars and nightclubs. It happens in the US as well but not nearly as frequently and I think its because people know in the back of their mind that it might not be worth starting something because the guy you're talking shit to might have a concealed weapon permit.

Furthermore, you would not see the same level of rioting and looting in the UK if every shop owner was guarding their property with a shotgun and the police actually carried weapons. Legalized gun ownership makes people think twice about being a jackass.
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You are wrong in every possible and conceivable way.
 
jufonuk

jufonuk

not tag worthy
Meus Renaissance said:
You know what's annoying? In the YouTube video of Tariq Jahan, people are making fake accounts - pretending to be Asians - making racial comments about blacks and trying to provoke trouble. These accounts are e.g. NoSurrender786. 'No Surrender' is one of the preferred slogans for groups like the EDL

:rage: Fuck these bastards, fuck the lot of them.
Click to expand...

I agree.. people reporting nick griffith to police for his "black blitz" coments re eltham edl last night

tweeted him (griffith) to fuck off,

people can learn from Tariq Jahan, the way he stopped the crowds from getting rowdy was legendary...i do not know how he kept so calm...
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
From The Guardian
10.23pm: Nottingham council has threatened to evict council tenants if found guilty of criminality in last nights riots.

Trafford council follows Manchester and Salford in pledging action against tenants or their children found to be involved in the riots.
Click to expand...
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
Sky Chief said:
OK, why?
Click to expand...

Have you seen City of God? Or any films featuring African child soldiers?
That's what it would be like.

The same scallies who are rampaging through the streets lawlessly fucking everything up and setting fire to peoples' businesses and homes would have access to guns. This thread has umpteen videos clearly showing how stupid they are, and how little they think ahead... they'd either be getting shot or they'd be shooting people.

Heard of Jean Charles de Menezes? He was the guy police mistakenly shot in London following the 7/7 bombings in London because he ran away from police and they thought he might be a terrorist. Or how about Mark Duggan, the man killed at the start of this entire debacle? He was supposedly armed, and that played into his death... we'd have more incidents were people were wrongly or controversially killed by authority figures. We'd have more people trying to kill authority figures.

This country doesn't need more lethal weapons to add to its ills.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
33-Hit-Combo said:
Sweet, sweet justice! How does this work in the legal sense?
Click to expand...
No idea.

That said how did the two guys who got 10 and 16 weeks in jail, have a legit trial in less than a night? I mean how can you process things that quickly even if you want to plead guilty?
 
D

Dabanton

Member
Wrestlemania said:
It blows my mind that anyone could actually think this is anything but a terrible, terrible idea.
Click to expand...

The whole political reaction to this has been terrible.

This is what happens when we are led by men and women who have absolutely no clue of what modern life in the UK actually is.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
No idea.

That said how did the two guys who got 10 and 16 weeks in jail, have a legit trial in less than a night? I mean how can you process things that quickly even if you want to plead guilty?
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No need for a full criminal trial, most are coming in with guilty pleas.
 
D

dwu8991

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
No need for a full criminal trial, most are coming in with guilty pleas.
Click to expand...

I loved how one crim with stolen goods attempted to explain he was actually going to turn the goods into the police if they hadn't pass by!
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
They're obviously not going to make them homeless. Evicting proven troublemakers is a good idea, they'll probably move them to another area where they have to integrate with neighbours anew, neighbours that will perhaps be less tolerant of bullshit. Its a real inconvenience and consequence of disgusting behaviour. Their current neighbours and people remaining at the council properties will have been sent a huge signal about how they expect their tenants to behave.

That said... I don't actually believe these councils are going to live up to their tough words.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
@gmpolice
Just arrested two men found with fuel can, balaclava, ball bearings - if you want to commit disorder, we’ll lock you up

Fucking aresehole. That would be devastating.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
If that's the case then I guess I could see it that fast. Still it does strike me as really fast.
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Yeah, government have been running magistrate courts all day and through the night as well for swift decisions. Some more serious cases will go to the Crown court, stuff like arson and ABH/GBH.
 
D

Dabanton

Member
radioheadrule83 said:
Have you seen City of God? Or any films featuring African child soldiers?
That's what it would be like.

The same scallies who are rampaging through the streets lawlessly fucking everything up and setting fire to peoples' businesses and homes would have access to guns. This thread has umpteen videos clearly showing how stupid they are, and how little they think ahead... they'd either be getting shot or they'd be shooting people.

Heard of Jean Charles de Menezes? He was the guy police mistakenly shot in London following the 7/7 bombings in London because he ran away from police and they thought he might be a terrorist. Or how about Mark Duggan, the man killed at the start of this entire debacle? He was supposedly armed, and that played into his death... we'd have more incidents were people were wrongly or controversially killed by authority figures. We'd have more people trying to kill authority figures.

This country doesn't need more lethal weapons to add to its ills.
Click to expand...

Very true also a point about Jean Charles de Menezes. He wasn't even running from the police.

There is a disturbing pattern that emerges when the police shoot someone instead of admitting they made a mistake their first reaction is to lie and when they are caught in that lie they attempt another and another, they said he ran into the station wearing a bulky coat and jumped over the barriers.

Menezes entered the Tube station at about 10:00am, stopping to pick up a free newspaper. He used his Oyster card to pay the fare, walked through the barriers, and descended the escalator slowly. He then ran across the platform to board the newly arrived train. Menezes boarded the train and found one of the first available seats.
Click to expand...
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
^ wow, sorry, I didn't realise I was perpetuating a lie there! That was literally the last thing I remembered reading about it...

krypt0nian said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o

Thoughts? He compares this to the Syrian uprisings.
Click to expand...

It was posted earlier in the thread. I admire his passion, but he is wrong to characterise this in that way and is clearly blinded into thinking this is part of the same struggles he lived through himself in the 80s. His son, who he describes as a little angel, turned out to be someone involved in forged passports and alleged rape amongst other things.
 
E

Empty

Member
Opus Angelorum said:
So how do we punish them?
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we punish them by the law for the crimes they committed in the last few days. we do have that you know. then when they are out of jail for their criminal acts. we are pro-active with them using local measures to reform attitudes.

i get how galling it is to have taxpayer money that could go on healthcare or education spent on benefits for criminals, but cutting it off like that is just super shortsighted.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Yeah, government have been running magistrate courts all day and through the night as well for swift decisions. Some more serious cases will go to the Crown court, stuff like arson and ABH/GBH.
Click to expand...
Ah I see different levels of courts and offenders.
 
W

Wrestlemania

Banned
Opus Angelorum said:
So how do we punish them?
Click to expand...
I don't know what the best way is, I'm not proposing anything. The standard procedure of the law will do for now. I do know that making those found guilty and their families homeless would be a fucking terrible idea. What on earth do they think is going to happen in that situation, they'll all realise what a mistake they've made and quietly disappear?
 
A

avaya

Member
Empty said:
we punish them by the law for the crimes they committed in the last few days. we do have that you know. then when they are out of jail for their criminal acts. we are pro-active with them using local measures to reform attitudes.

i get how galling it is to have taxpayer money that could go on healthcare or education spent on benefits for criminals, but cutting it off like that is just super shortsighted.
Click to expand...

Here it where this fails. The reform should begin in prison. Leaving that till they get out of prison is doomed to failure.

When they get out, the local measures are not going to do jack shit, they'll be hardened and they see jail time as a badge of honor. They'll be just as lawless as before, possibly more dangerous.
 
Meus Renaissance

Meus Renaissance

Member
If we take the focus away from the last few days for a moment, and ask ourselves - if it were the 5th of August today - would youths be capable of such a thing, we would recall the day we realised that we as a society had troublesome and dangerous young people -- whether that was the moment you felt intimidated by a group on a street corner or a group of them boarding a bus or whether it was the treatment teachers were getting at school; we would not be very surprised.

In an opinion piece on the Guardian earlier, this quote stood out:

"Why aren't the parents calling up their children and saying, 'Come back here at once'? They can't. Those days are gone, that authority has gone. A lot of parents are not able to stop their child from going out. Young people have had enough. Look at how brazen they have become, going right up to police."​

Too many lack respect for not just authority in general but at home in the form of parents and lack any shame at school. The respect that was expected, and required, from you only a generation has vanished. My mother who grew up outside the UK recalls that when she was young, whenever you saw a teacher you would change your stride, tuck in your shirt and greet them politely or offer to help them. And this was on a bloody weekend in the town centre! Here? We're more likely to see teachers break down in tears from abuse or feel too intimidated to control a classroom.

If we are to address this problem, it begins at an early in school. We must instil manners in these children - we must instil authority in these teachers and lastly we must instil responsibility in these parents.
 
A

Admiral Bone to Pick

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
You know what's annoying? In the YouTube video of Tariq Jahan, people are making fake accounts - pretending to be Asians - making racial comments about blacks and trying to provoke trouble. These accounts are e.g. NoSurrender786. 'No Surrender' is one of the preferred slogans for groups like the EDL

:rage: Fuck these bastards, fuck the lot of them.
Click to expand...

And usually Youtube comment sections are so enlightening.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
If we are to address this problem, it begins at an early in school. We must instil manners in these children - we must instil authority in these teachers and lastly we must instil responsibility in these parents.
Click to expand...

All respect to you, Meus, seriously. I think a lot of people in the country who would previously have baulked at the suggestion of reintroducing corporal punishment would now consider it. Parents need to punished for the crimes of their children as well as the children being punished. Fines etc... aren't good for anything, they need to be sent on parenting courses and humiliated into learning how to be a good parent. The breakdown of social order is because of bad parenting and that is what needs to be fixed.
 
A

avaya

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
If we are to address this problem, it begins at an early in school. We must instil manners in these children - we must instil authority in these teachers and lastly we must instil responsibility in these parents.
Click to expand...

I think it's an anglo-saxon society issue. Definitely in the UK and US. In this society you need discipline instilled in children from a young age. Classroom's are literally like Lord of the Flies, school's have trouble expelling pupils and the lip starts from a very young age. They've known no authority all their lives. Personally I think the school should be able to decide if the kid's parents are not fit to raise them, we need to create state boarding schools.
 
L

linsivvi

Member
Sky Chief said:
I do not own a handgun myself and do not desire to but this is one of the only explanations I can come up with.
Click to expand...

You do know all other countries in the world do not have your second amendment, right?

So try again.
 
S

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Meus Renaissance said:
If we take the focus away from the last few days for a moment, and ask ourselves - if it were the 5th of August today - would youths be capable of such a thing, we would recall the day we realised that we as a society had troublesome and dangerous young people -- whether that was the moment you felt intimidated by a group on a street corner or a group of them boarding a bus or whether it was the treatment teachers were getting at school; we would not be very surprised.

In an opinion piece on the Guardian earlier, this quote stood out:

"Why aren't the parents calling up their children and saying, 'Come back here at once'? They can't. Those days are gone, that authority has gone. A lot of parents are not able to stop their child from going out. Young people have had enough. Look at how brazen they have become, going right up to police."​

Too many lack respect for not just authority in general but at home in the form of parents and lack any shame at school. The respect that was expected, and required, from you only a generation has vanished. My mother who grew up outside the UK recalls that when she was young, whenever you saw a teacher you would change your stride, tuck in your shirt and greet them politely or offer to help them. And this was on a bloody weekend in the town centre! Here? We're more likely to see teachers break down in tears from abuse or feel too intimidated to control a classroom.

If we are to address this problem, it begins at an early in school. We must instil manners in these children - we must instil authority in these teachers and lastly we must instil responsibility in these parents.
Click to expand...
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" Plato- 5th century BC
 
Spokker

Spokker

Member
The scariest thing about these riots is that they are not spur of the moment bouts of anger. The people who were angry over the original shooting were not violent. It was a peaceful protest.

What we are seeing now is pre-mediated and somewhat advanced. The times and the places where the riots are to occur are being arranged online and instructions are being circulated on how to not get caught and how to do the most amount of damage.

The solution cannot come in the form of, "Oh, well, we'll strive to give these people better opportunities." When someone steals to feed their family or riots because their back is up against the wall, that's something you can at least attempt to fix. When someone is simply rioting for the fun of it, there is no treatment for that. I think greater force must be used on these people in order to bring them to justice. A similar problem is happening with youths in Philadelphia.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
 
A

avaya

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
Click to expand...

This may actually work.....always thought they should consider doing this. Though you can't have the labour camp.
 
3

33-Hit-Combo

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
Click to expand...

Well that certainly isn't happening!

I agree with people that morals really do need to be taught at a young age, it gives kids a chance to see things from a perspective other than what the parents express.
 
W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
Click to expand...

No thank you!

Though I do agree with stronger discipline at school. Not corporal punishment though. At my grammar school they were very rigorous every step of the discpline ladder (if that makes sense). If you did anything wrong, had your shirt untucked, your tie poorly tied etc. You got called on it and disciplined. You mustn't give an inch at first.
 
E

Empty

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
Click to expand...

sixteen year old videogame dork me did everything to get out of just playing rugby on cold games afternoons, i think i would probably have run away if i knew full military service was coming.
 
G

Guerrillas in the Mist

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
Click to expand...

Our military has always been pretty anti-conscription. I'd imagine soldiers would hate having to train up kids who don't want to be there.
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
All respect to you, Meus, seriously. I think a lot of people in the country who would previously have baulked at the suggestion of reintroducing corporal punishment would now consider it. Parents need to punished for the crimes of their children as well as the children being punished. Fines etc... aren't good for anything, they need to be sent on parenting courses and humiliated into learning how to be a good parent. The breakdown of social order is because of bad parenting and that is what needs to be fixed.
Click to expand...

avaya said:
I think it's an anglo-saxon society issue. Definitely in the UK and US. In this society you need discipline instilled in children from a young age. Classroom's are literally like Lord of the Flies, school's have trouble expelling pupils and the lip starts from a very young age. They've known no authority all their lives. Personally I think the school should be able to decide if the kid's parents are not fit to raise them, we need to create state boarding schools.
Click to expand...

I think there is something in these ideas. Parents are not going to like the idea of corporal punishment, teachers inflicting pain on their kids again... that's just not going to fly.

I do however think its worth creating one of those HM Government e-petitions on the subject - call it a proposal for a National Discipline Act or something - posit a debate in parliament discussing some of these ideas. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/

I particularly like the idea of state boarding schools, and the idea of regular schools being able to assess children's behaviour in an authoritative way. I imagine they would be empowered to collect evidence of poor behaviour, and liaise with social services and the parents to try and avoid any drastic action. In most cases, I would think that kids would want to avoid being taken away from their parents and their friends -- the threat would be enough. Then of course, if it didn't work the child would be placed into a boarding school or juvenile centre and taken away from the parents. One possible consequence there is that if the boarding schools gain a positive reputation or perform better than regular schools, people might act up just to get into them. Beyond a certain age, they could be made to serve community service or take part in military service. Having friends in the tri-services, I think some mandatory military service might be a worthwhile idea.
 
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