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[Jin34]

I tend to agree with Smokeydave. You want facts? here we go.


http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf

Nope, people aren't just assuming the old days were better - they were better.

Straight comparisons of now with 100 years ago are disingenuous for a myriad of reasons of how different things where.h a c

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

I tend to agree with Smokeydave. You want facts? here we go.


http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf

Nope, people aren't just assuming the old days were better - they were better.

I think you left something out:

Indictable Offenses Known to the Police

Hell, in 1997, 56% of crimes weren't reported to the police. Imagine how high that percentage was in the year 1900.

 

[Spokker]

There's a difference between creating inventives for vocational training and saying "ok, half of you get to go to university and half of you have to work on a factory."

The point is that it's unrealistic to expect all of them to go to university, or even half of them.

 

[theignoramus]

There's a difference between creating inventives for vocational training and saying "ok, half of you get to go to university and half of you have to work on a factory."

The Soviet system was somewhat similar to that and it was known for it's exceedingly high literacy rate and science/technology programs. (obviously the society around this system grew decrepit, but their education system worked)

 

[Empty]

But what about people who are already disciplined? I think it makes sense for them to be allowed to go straight into continuing their education doing A-levels or a diploma.

This would create the problem of deciding who is disciplined, which would be part of the reason you could give them the chance to go through education responsibly, and if not, some kind of hard line discipline is required.

Better still than all of this is getting in there from a young, young age with discipline, structure, and giving them the sense that they have the opportunity to validate themselves in society with an understanding of how they can make that happen.

what about people who don't agree with education yet want to get on with their lives. there are plenty of people who left school at 16 yet made positive things and worked hard to create good families without looting the streets.

your entire fascistic fantasy about discipline through the military seems to originate from "well i went to university and read books and if these guys aren't smart like me then they must be scumbag chavs

".

 

[leadbelly]

Straight comparisons of now with 100 years ago are disingenuous for a myriad of reasons of how different things where.h a c

This is true, but look at it this way; all the problems we have now in modern society, multiply them. It was fucking hard back then. Life was much tougher for the working class.

True, they had much stronger moral values that were reinforced by parents, the school and authority figures, but in terms of standard of living, it was far worse back then.

 

[Spokker]

Part of it is what people are going to school for. The demand for math and science majors is very high, to the point where we're importing people with these skills.

People with certain degrees are probably having a hard time, but if you can't find a software engineering job right now I'd be pretty surprised. Unless you lack skill or aren't willing to move to take it.

When it comes time to roll out the Pell grants and state grants, all majors appear to hold the same importance. Certain majors should definitely be moved to the front of the line for financial aid.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

The point is that it's unrealistic to expect all of them to go to university, or even half of them.

I hate this thread at the moment. So many bright students are written off as it is, they then go on to uni and prove themselves. Imagine if schools had to be strict and really cut down on uni places. The teachers favorites would be going to uni, the bright quiet kids would get shut down.

Enforced military service and so on is a good way to punish everyone for the actions of the minority.

 

[Spokker]

This is true, but look at it this way; All the problems we have now in modern society, multiply them. It was fucking hard back then. Life was much tougher for the working class.

Ah shit, what was I listening to the other day? Someone on the radio said, "Back when I was a kid my father would slap me and say, 'You mean you didn't jump at the chance to work 80 hours a week for 50 cents an hour while the boss kicks you in the nuts every 15 minutes? What's wrong with you, ya putz?!'"

 

[leadbelly]

Ah shit, what was I listening to the other day? Someone on the radio said, "Back when I was a kid my father would slap me and say, 'You mean you didn't jump at the chance to work 80 hours a week for 50 cents an hour while the boss kicks you in the nuts every 15 minutes? What's wrong with you, ya putz?!'"

Comedy sketch? I think I know what you mean.

 

[Parl]

what about people who don't agree with education yet want to get on with their lives. there are plenty of people who left school at 16 yet made positive things and worked hard to create good families without looting the streets.

It's true; my idea was more a response to zomg's more hard line idea, but we do require something to integrate certain people to prevent scumbaggery. Different strategies from a much earlier age are better long term, but it's also ideal we work on those in their teens already.

your entire fascistic fantasy about discipline through the military seems to originate from "well i went to university and read books and if these guys aren't smart like me then they must be scumbag chavs

".

Spoiler

I didn't go to university.

The idea originates from how effective it seems certain authority figures can be in giving structure and discipline to those who have little.

 

[Goron2000]

Just been for a drive around Birmingham and theres no way into the city centre by car, every road has a police blockade. The only way in is walk, bus or certain blockade's have police questioning people driving in about what their intentions are.

 

[Meatpuppet]

Well, I would be willing to give those who are in the top 20% or even 50% of their classes a pass. I wouldn't want them to neglect their schoolwork for military drills.

I'm a big fan of tracking. By the start of high school you can probably tell who the above average, average, below average and criminal people are going to be. Steer above average into college prep work. Steer average into vocational work (No shame in it. I'm talking skilled work where the pay is not bad at all). Steer below average but well-behaved people into low or no skilled labor but conscription may be productive too. Steer criminals into military service. A few weeks with a drill sergeant should straighten them out.

Put everybody in their proper place.

This is steered quite a bit by the age you enter school at. If your birthday means you are young for your year statistically you are likely to do worse.

Also why the fuck should someone who is less academic be forced to do military service? That's bullshit

 

[The Technomancer]

When it comes time to roll out the Pell grants and state grants, all majors appear to hold the same importance. Certain majors should definitely be moved to the front of the line for financial aid.

Yes please!
(broke ass engineering undergrad)

 

[Prine]

lol

This lazy fuck would never be caught dead doing manual labour. Polish and Eastern Europeans used as scapegoats by these chavs as usual.

They work so damn hard too. Nothing but contempt for their willingness to earn by these plebs.

 

[Spokker]

Also why the fuck should someone who is less academic be forced to do military service? That's bullshit

To instill in them a sense of discipline.

Some posters were recommending that everybody do a mandatory couple of years in the military. I was saying that I wouldn't want to send our brightest to a military base when they could be doing more good elsewhere.

 

[Chinner]

looks like the riots have hit this thread looking at the last few pages.

 

[Wiseblade]

To instill in them a sense of discipline.

Some posters were recommending that everybody do a mandatory couple of years in the military. I was saying that I wouldn't want to send our brightest to a military base when they could be doing more good elsewhere.

Because not being a genius makes you more inclined to commit crime?

Allow me to reiterate: Stay the hell away from my country.

 

[Meatpuppet]

To instill in them a sense of discipline.

Some posters were recommending that everybody do a mandatory couple of years in the military. I was saying that I wouldn't want to send our brightest to a military base when they could be doing more good elsewhere.

So essentially you are judging people's levels of discipline largely on their aptitude for testing. Good luck with that, can't imagine how that could breed resentment long term

 

[Sipowicz]

Aside from all the talk about discipline etc... Are there any real action points tonight? It looks like a washout in Manchester and the rest of the north, I think the looters are scared as fuck of the Asian gangs in Bham out for blood and there are 16k police holding the peace in London.

looks like it's all over to me. i expect aarrests and pathetic sentences, followed by meainingless words from politicians and empty rhetoric

maybe some more stupidity and excuses from the guardian and retards like darcus howe. and then done

 

[Joel Was Right]

Threatening teachers, whether verbally or physically, should be a criminal offence if not automatic permanent expulsion. The ones who are troublesome in their communities should be put in a military camp where you soak them with authority and manners - that is the best service they can provide for their community, not sweeping the streets, but disappearing from it

 

[mysticwhip]

Threatening teachers, whether verbally or physically, should be a criminal offence if not automatic permanent expulsion. The ones who are troublesome in their communities should be put in a military camp where you soak them with authority and manners - that is the best service they can provide for their community, not sweeping the streets, but disappearing from it

lololnonononononononononnonononno

 

[Clegg]

lololnonononononononononnonononno

You don't think intimidation should be a criminal offence?

 

[Furret]

So essentially you are judging people's levels of discipline largely on their aptitude for testing. Good luck with that, can't imagine how that could breed resentment long term

Are we still pretending to care about what some savage is resentful about?

I resent having half of my city burnt down. Military service/hard labour is an excellent idea. Anyone that complains gets to keep doing it until they learn their place.

 

[Spokker]

Because not being a genius makes you more inclined to commit crime?

Well, there are a lot of geniuses who are good at committing crimes, but I'm not worried about those people when I go to the ATM.

So essentially you are judging people's levels of discipline largely on their aptitude for testing. Good luck with that, can't imagine how that could breed resentment long term

Taiwan does conscription and I believe there are exceptions for those who are in college or something. I haven't had a chance to pick up the brochure though. But I would call them and ask them if any resentment is cropping up.

 

[Tzeentch]

Are we still pretending to care about what some savage is resentful about?

-- Yeah I'm sure that teaching these "savages" weapon skills and tactics is a GREAT IDEA.

I resent having half of my city burnt down. Military service/hard labour is an excellent idea. Anyone that complains gets to keep doing it until they learn their place.

-- As a former Marine I find this idea absolutely horrid. Don't dump all your problems on the military, we have enough douchebags in uniform as it is.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Anything I need to rethink or reword?

A parliamentary debate to discuss the implementation of a National Discipline Act.

Parliament should convene to discuss the criminality perpetrated by feral youths and troublemakers during the nation-wide rioting of August 2011. MPs should discuss ways of encouraging and enforcing higher degrees of discipline and respect in British society.

The act should seek to establish where the responsibility for the behaviour of teenagers and children lies, and offer remedies to common obstacles and problems encountered in investigating and disciplining them.

The act should also seek to address the long term societal influences upon the behaviour of children, teenagers and young adults, and things that are typically corrosive to communities.

Signatories of this petition propose that the following be considered:

• A debate on the legality of limited corporal punishment, carried out by parents, and protected from the reach of European human rights law.

• Consideration of the infectious nature of behaviour. It is evident that poor attitudes and destructive behaviours are inherited and transmitted socially – from parents, the media, peer groups, neighbours, school playgrounds etc. Parliament should explore ways in which such negative relationships can be legally broken up, disrupted or dynamically altered. This should include the consideration of dedicated state boarding schools, possibly doubling as juvenile centres. It should include the consideration of curfews and digital-grounding orders – banning offenders from communing or communicating with like-minded thugs, be it on the street or using digital messaging services and social networks.

• Parliament should consider that during a child’s formative years, teachers and schools are the most appropriate, impartial entities capable of considering and assessing a child’s behaviour. These teachers often spend more waking hours of the day with children than their parents do. Schools should be given more authoritative powers to refer children and their families to social services or to the police. They should be able to detain children punitively without objection from parents, move the child to another area of the school, to another school entirely, or to separate them from friends. They should be given more powers to monitor and if necessary, search students.

• It should be an offence to conceal your face in the presence of a police officer. Anyone who uses hooded garments, helmets, cloth or balaclava-like garments to conceal their appearance must be compelled by law to reveal themselves if asked to by a police officer. Refusing to do so should be grounds for arrest. Considerations for religious garments should be taken into account, such as making female officers available for women if necessary, but no exemptions should apply. In a situation where an officer finds it both urgent and necessary to divest someone of exploiting their anonymity, they should be able to do so.

• As an alternative to handing down custodial sentences, standards should be drawn up for alternative sentences – including more constructive community service, working with local councils and industry to provide a live directory of temporary placements. Parliament should also consider mandatory military service as a consequence of anti-social behaviour.

• As some criminals can often not be fined to the degree that damages are recovered, Parliament should consider levying a crime tax upon offenders, collected via the PAYE system, which does not expire until all damages have been collected. For convicts who have caused significant damage, bailiffs should be contracted to assess the prospect for repossessing goods to fund reparations to businesses and victims.

• A young persons crime index should be created to monitor the frequency of crime perpetrated by persons aged 18 and under up and down the country. Areas scoring high on the index should be considered carefully for special campaigns, programs and additional council funding. The robust encouragement and enforcing of discipline should be a key measure of success for schools residing in these areas. Council tenancy and housing agreements should be fluid enough to allow councils to redistribute families if deemed necessary to help improve the scores of council estates using this index.

Parliament may wish to put these matters before a select committee, and have them look into the viability of these suggestions and seek out others. A public consultation, including a website open to suggestions from the public, would also be a good idea.

Kind regards,
The undersigned.

 

[Warm Machine]

As can be seen in this thread, for every idea to improve a situation you can think of a million reasons not to do it. Because of this, trying something, anything, to change the course of the future is the hardest thing to do. I'm not suggesting any of these ideas are the right ones, just expect no one will ever agree on a single idiology but that doesn't mean that nothing should ever be tried.

 

[Spokker]

-- Yeah I'm sure that teaching these "savages" weapon skills and tactics is a GREAT IDEA.

They are making them wake up early and do drills and shit.

Don't dump all your problems on the military, we have enough douchebags in uniform as it is.

Is the military not segregated by intelligence and ability in the US? Doesn't it go like this? Air Force > Navy > Army > Marines?

 

[Joel Was Right]

lololnonononononononononnonononno

What good reason(s) do you have to disagree with that?

 

[Meatpuppet]

Are we still pretending to care about what some savage is resentful about?

I resent having half of my city burnt down. Military service/hard labour is an excellent idea. Anyone that complains gets to keep doing it until they learn their place.

So being having less aptitude for school learning makes you a savage? Seriously, I'm out of here. Some of you would clearly be heading straight to said boot camps were they ever implemented.

 

[Wiseblade]

Threatening teachers, whether verbally or physically, should be a criminal offence if not automatic permanent expulsion. The ones who are troublesome in their communities should be put in a military camp where you soak them with authority and manners - that is the best service they can provide for their community, not sweeping the streets, but disappearing from it

Yeah, this is a great idea. ¬.¬


If I didn't know any better, I'd think you wanted to create a group of resentful people, isolated from the rest of society with poor job prospects. But that'd be silly.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Wordy, but good. I would sign it.

 

[Robot1X]

 

[Nemo]

Only heard today about the three Pakistani young men that died in Birmingham. Feeling so sad right now, may their friends and family have peace with it

Hopefully it'll all end very soon

 

[Spokker]

I'd think you wanted to create a group of resentful people, isolated from the rest of society with poor job prospects.

A lot of people already enlist due to poor prospects in society. They come out of service a new man in many cases.

I would prefer not to send them to die in the Middle East though. I'd like to see them running around the country saving people from floods and shit.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well, there are a lot of geniuses who are good at committing crimes, but I'm not worried about those people when I go to the ATM.

I could tentatively accept "more intelligent criminals are less likely to be randomly violent, since that tends to be a bad move because it ups the stakes"

 

[Empty]

It's true; my idea was more a response to zomg's more hard line idea, but we do require something to integrate certain people to prevent scumbaggery. Different strategies from a much earlier age are better long term, but it's also ideal we work on those in their teens already.

Spoiler

I didn't go to university.

The idea originates from how effective it seems certain authority figures can be in giving structure and discipline to those who have little.

but you see this is the problem of working backwards to cover the innumerable flaws of an axiom that literally states that every single on of our kids are little thuggy shits and the solution is that we need discipline beaten into them through hard labor. i mean i think we're on the page about the need to establish authority to create civility and that some kids lack it, we definitely agree about how you need to get there early and i'd say the role of good parenting and good schools free of disruptive students are important, but there are a bunch of different ways of helping existing kids which should have mandatory boot camps as the very last resort if at all.

the reason why i gave you a sass about the elitism inherent in doing that by education is because you aren't normally a poster with terrible opinions and generally you like to bring in a bit of nuance to debates from what i've seen here and that you wouldn't just reject zomg's idea outright as the quasi-fascist bullshit it is is astounding to me.

 

[leadbelly]

I think you left something out:



Hell, in 1997, 56% of crimes weren't reported to the police. Imagine how high that percentage was in the year 1900.

Yeah. It's not simply comparing 1900 to 1997 though. From the 1960s onwards you see the most significant climb.

 

[Furret]

-- Yeah I'm sure that teaching these "savages" weapon skills and tactics is a GREAT IDEA.

-- As a former Marine I find this idea absolutely horrid. Don't dump all your problems on the military, we have enough douchebags in uniform as it is.

Now try learning what military service means (at least in the UK).

It's cleaning lumps of coal and peeling potatoes till your thumbs bleed. It's about learning discipline not how to shoot straight.

 

[Spokker]

I could tentatively accept "more intelligent criminals are less likely to be randomly violent, since that tends to be a bad move"

Well, everybody talks about the Bernie Madoffs of the world but he's not a concern while doing daily chores or coming home from the bus stop at 2AM. And Madoff got caught so I'm happy with that outcome.

 

[Furret]

Yeah, this is a great idea. ¬.¬


If I didn't know any better, I'd think you wanted to create a group of resentful people, isolated from the rest of society with poor job prospects. But that'd be silly.

Unless you haven't noticed we've got that already.

But you're right, those poor innocent children burning down the buildings, we must respect and understand their heartfelt and complex political and social aspirations.

Or... we could have the police punch them repeatedly in the face until they stop being cunts.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Only heard today about the three Pakistani young men that died in Birmingham. Feeling so sad right now, may their friends and family have peace with it

Hopefully it'll all end very soon

It looks like the worst of it has passed. GMP beasted on the looters yesterday and they are staying away. Met have 16,000 officers on the streets. Birmingham has Asian gangs out for blood. My only worry is that in London the looting will ratchet up again once the 16,000 police become 1,600 police in a few days.

The looters have figured out that there are no consequences to their actions and right now they are staying away because there is a massive number of police. These police can't stay in London indefinitely, and I fear they will come back because there was no physical violence or brutality from the Met, they have nothing to fear from law enforcement in London like they do in Manchester.

 

[thezerofire]

They are making them wake up early and do drills and shit.


Is the military not segregated by intelligence and ability in the US? Doesn't it go like this? Air Force > Navy > Army > Marines?

I think Army might be at the bottom. Easiest to get into and they do the most recruiting

 

[Chinner]

anyone agree that we should sterilise these people? first they should work in work camps, if they won't then we get their dole and their right to breed taken away.

 

[Spokker]

I think Army might be at the bottom. Easiest to get into and they do the most recruiting

Yeah, you're right. I had those two backwards.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Yeah, this is a great idea. ¬.¬


If I didn't know any better, I'd think you wanted to create a group of resentful people, isolated from the rest of society with poor job prospects. But that'd be silly.

I am quite angry right now so maybe I'm not thinking right, but explain to me why you are opposed to deal harshly with those threatening teachers when the status quo allows many of these to get away with it at the expense of that teacher's self-respect, dignity and perhaps even career? Who are they to threaten anyone much less the one educating them for 7 hours a day for 5 days a week? How dare they confront their teacher. They may be able to get away with that attitude at home, but this person you are threatening is the difference between you having a career or having to collect benefit cheques.

One of the most disgusting things I've ever seen are good teachers - male and female - breaking down in tears in front of a class because of the vile abuse they get, to feel so frightened as to never return to that school again when they came there in the first place to just teach. I find the tears of a single teacher more heart breaking and disgusting than the cuts and bruises a 100 riot police can get from these cunts. If there is one thing where we should have a zero tolerance for, it is this in my opinion.

Who would want to employ someone who has threatened teachers? Who want that type of person in their community much less society? Who would want to be identified as their parent? I'm not the one who is suggesting we remove them from society. I'm not the one who is provoking resentment; they are already full of resentment - they have set isolated themselves from society. I just want that stink of shit cleared up from the room.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Or... we could have the police punch them repeatedly in the face until they stop being cunts.

I would be up for that as well.

A giant cannon that fires them into space would also work...

 

[Empty]

anyone agree that we should sterilise these people? first they should work in work camps, if they won't then we get their dole and their right to breed taken away.

you're thinking too long term chinner. first we must get out the bats and beat the shit out of them in the streets to take back r communities, then we can ship their battered corpses off to the camps. when harvey dent couldn't save gotham through order what did batman do. exactly.

 

[Spokker]

anyone agree that we should sterilise these people?

Birth control works well enough. Condoms are the best investment a government can make. Give them out like candy. Cops should hand them out freely. Go to any cop to get your condoms. Create a sense of shame for those who don't use condoms. I come down hard on men who don't use condoms who otherwise don't want children.

If these people were rioting about condoms I would be air dropping them all over the place.