London riots spreading through UK

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SapientWolf said:
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" Plato- 5th century BC
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Every time someone posts this quote, I want to punch a dolphin. We have no context for understanding the relative severities of behaviour in both societies. For all we know this comment could've been provoked by 3 instances of littering.

What is currently happening is without precedent in this nation, unless I'm mistaken.
 
Empty said:
sixteen year old videogame dork me did everything to get out of just playing rugby on cold games afternoons, i think i would probably have run away if i knew full military service was coming.
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You would have a choice of living on the street, hole digging or military service. If your parents were found hiding you away they would be punished with hole digging until they turned you over for hole digging or military service.

SmokyDave said:
What is currently happening is without precedent in this nation, unless I'm mistaken.
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Yup, other riots had causes and were driven by some divine ideology. This is mindless thuggery and looting by the savage underclass bred by the lavish welfare state.
 
Some of peoples' attitudes towards rioters make me feel a little ill. The whole "rioters losing council flats" thing is good example of people's blind fury and short-sightedness when it comes to punishments. Where do these councils expect them to go after they've been kicked out? They're not going to simply disappear. If anything, eviction will only push many of them further into a criminal lifestyle.

I'm not saying that you just give them a firm telling off, but that any punishment needs to have a long term plan.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
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Or a choice between staying in education or military service from ages 16-18.

-Military service includes additional education (including higher level stuff for brighter 'volunteers')
-Those who choose education and misbehave are moved over into military service (vice versa can happen too, under certain circumstances)
 
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
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bad lads army ever seen that? it worked..
 
zomgbbqftw said:
The other thing that would work is compulsory military service for everyone at age 16. Military don't take shit from any wankers, anyone who absconds goes to a labour camp to dig and fill the same hole until they agree to military service.
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O_o Not sure if serious.
 
Wiseblade said:
Some of peoples' attitudes towards rioters make me feel a little ill. The whole "rioters losing council flats" thing is good example of people's blind fury and short-sightedness when it comes to punishments. Where do these councils expect them to go after they've been kicked out? They're not going to simply disappear. If anything, eviction will only push many of them further into a criminal lifestyle.

I'm not saying that you just give them a firm telling off, but that any punishment needs to have a long term plan.
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Yes. Perhaps it isn't fair, perhaps it isn't just. But preventative policies that improve the root of the problem are way, way better than just raw punishment.

I'm a little worried at what further liberties will be slashed because of the backlash to these riots.
 
SmokyDave said:
Every time someone posts this quote, I want to punch a dolphin. We have no context for understanding the relative severities of behaviour in both societies. For all we know this comment could've been provoked by 3 instances of littering.

What is currently happening is without precedent in this nation, unless I'm mistaken.
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In the UK? Maybe nothing on this scale, but the Brixton Riots were pretty bad.

Worldwide? Throughout history? Not the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last. But I was really addressing the sentiment that "this generation of youth has gone astray," which is reliably cyclical.
 
SmokyDave said:
Every time someone posts this quote, I want to punch a dolphin. We have no context for understanding the relative severities of behaviour in both societies. For all we know this comment could've been provoked by 3 instances of littering.

What is currently happening is without precedent in this nation, unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...

It depends what you mean "is currently happening"? Rioting was a long-standing means for the disenfranchised to express their disgust at the actions of the government/elite. It was an integral part to the political mechanics of the nation, according to some historians.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
You would have a choice of living on the street, hole digging or military service. If your parents were found hiding you away they would be punished with hole digging until they turned you over for hole digging or military service.
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It wasn't that long ago that we had scandals of soldiers torturing Iraq war prisoners for sport. I don't think arming these people and putting them in a position of authority is such a good idea.
 
Thread title needs to be changed, these riots never spread threw the UK, they spread threw England.

Title makes Scotland seem like a disrespectful nation.
 
Wiseblade said:
It wasn't that long ago that we had scandals of soldiers torturing Iraq war prisoners for sport. I don't think arming these people and putting them in a position of authority is such a good idea.
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Who the hell said anything about arming them. I am talking about 9 months of hardcore drills, waking up early, more drills, cross country running, waking up even earlier, maybe some more drills.
 
Compulsory military service is a horrible idea for everyone. I'd have absolutely hated that at 16, and yet I've never acted like a yob and like to think I'm a very well spoken 20 year old.

Military service for those who are charged with anit-social behaviour etc? That I could get behind.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
About compulsory military service? Very. It would instil discipline into a generation or fucktards who don't even know the meaning of the word.
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So you write off a generation of kids (or fucktards as you call them) for the actions of a few?
 
Jin34 said:
Yeah some of these reactions are pretty scary. Forced military service and flipping out about kids not tucking their shirts in, give me a break.
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Feels like the 1950's up in this motherfucker.
 
Utako said:
Everyone will know discipline...
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Well, I would be willing to give those who are in the top 20% or even 50% of their classes a pass. I wouldn't want them to neglect their schoolwork for military drills.

I'm a big fan of tracking. By the start of high school you can probably tell who the above average, average, below average and criminal people are going to be. Steer above average into college prep work. Steer average into vocational work (No shame in it. I'm talking skilled work where the pay is not bad at all). Steer below average but well-behaved people into low or no skilled labor but conscription may be productive too. Steer criminals into military service. A few weeks with a drill sergeant should straighten them out.

Put everybody in their proper place.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
About compulsory military service? Very. It would instil discipline into a generation or fucktards who don't even know the meaning of the word.
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Half the world has conscription, and 16 is generally far too late to instill discipline in kids. Russia has mandatory military service and the second highest incarceration rate in the world. It could help, but its benefits are from certain.
 
CaramaC said:
So you write off a generation of kids (or fucktards as you call them) for the actions of a few?
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They aren't the only pricks around. Not justifying his proposal, but I'm sure his comments aren't solely based on the looters and rioters.
 
SapientWolf said:
In the UK? Maybe nothing on this scale, but the Brixton Riots were pretty bad.

Worldwide? Throughout history? Not the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last. But I was really addressing the sentiment that "this generation of youth has gone astray," which is reliably cyclical.
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It's so old you could probably trace this back to cavemen if they kept records.
 
vcassano1 said:
It depends what you mean "is currently happening"? Rioting was a long-standing means for the disenfranchised to express their disgust at the actions of the government/elite. It was an integral part to the political mechanics of the nation, according to some historians.
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Rioting / protesting for political reasons or when being oppressed, sure. When it spread across the country yesterday it became pretty clear that there was no deeper ideology at work here, it's just youths smashing shit up because they can.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
Who the hell said anything about arming them. I am talking about 9 months of hardcore drills, waking up early, more drills, cross country running, waking up even earlier, maybe some more drills.
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When you say "Military Service", don't get surprised when people think you mean Military Service.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
About compulsory military service? Very. It would instil discipline into a generation or fucktards who don't even know the meaning of the word.
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But what about people who are already disciplined? I think it makes sense for them to be allowed to go straight into continuing their education doing A-levels or a diploma.

This would create the problem of deciding who is disciplined, which would be part of the reason you could give them the chance to go through education responsibly, and if not, some kind of hard line discipline is required.

Better still than all of this is getting in there from a young, young age with discipline, structure, and giving them the sense that they have the opportunity to validate themselves in society with an understanding of how they can make that happen.
 
vcassano1 said:
It depends what you mean "is currently happening"? Rioting was a long-standing means for the disenfranchised to express their disgust at the actions of the government/elite.
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The rioters look well-dressed and well-fed. They are organizing their attacks on their iPhones and Blackberries. The UK has a strong social safety net.
 
Spokker said:
Well, I would be willing to give those who are in the top 20% or even 50% of their classes a pass. I wouldn't want them to neglect their schoolwork for military drills.

I'm a big fan of tracking. By the start of high school you can probably tell who the above average, average, below average and criminal people are going to be. Steer above average into college prep work. Steer average into vocational work (No shame in it. I'm talking skilled work where the pay is not bad at all). Steer below average but well-behaved people into low or no skilled labor but conscription may be productive too. Steer criminals into military service. A few weeks with a drill sergeant should straighten them out.

Put everybody in their proper place.
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FaNPr.gif
 
zomgbbqftw said:
About compulsory military service? Very. It would instil discipline into a generation or fucktards who don't even know the meaning of the word.
Click to expand...

Just because someone served in the military, doesnt mean they'll carry those values with them through life.
 
Spokker said:
Well, I would be willing to give those who are in the top 20% or even 50% of their classes a pass. I wouldn't want them to neglect their schoolwork for military drills.

I'm a big fan of tracking. By the start of high school you can probably tell who the above average, average, below average and criminal people are going to be. Steer above average into college prep work. Steer average into vocational work (No shame in it. I'm talking skilled work where the pay is not bad at all). Steer below average but well-behaved people into low or no skilled labor but conscription may be productive too. Steer criminals into military service. A few weeks with a drill sergeant should straighten them out.

Put everybody in their proper place.
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2i7biu1.jpg

Stay the hell away from my country.
 
Jin34 said:
FaNPr.gif
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We have a big problem in the US right now where there are way more college students than there is demand for them. We have been operating on the mindset that everybody is university material and giving out financial aid like it's candy. The bachelor's degree is being weakened these days and now you need a master's just to separate yourself from the pack.

There is no shame in vocational work and you can make a good living being a plumber or an electrician. A lot of the good manufacturing jobs are gone, and I don't think turning everybody into scholars is going to work.
 
I wonder if starting a group on FB to recruit volunteers to march through estates and slums of the UK setting fire to Chav nests and Peugeot 205's, and stealing the stolen TVs back will gain any traction.

I mean if these retards can semi effectively organise themselves, people with a brain would do some serious fricking damage.

A friend of mine was going to set up a website asking for people to sign up, to meet to riot as a yobbo. To see how many of these retards did, and pass their details onto the police.
I'm guessing a lot of them would sign up before they figured anything out.
 
SmokyDave said:
Rioting / protesting for political reasons or when being oppressed, sure. When it spread across the country yesterday it became pretty clear that there was no deeper ideology at work here, it's just youths smashing shit up because they can.
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It was clear early on in my mind this wasn't politically motivated, but motivated by greed and opportunity. Which makes me sad when from time to time some nut job tries to link the two, as you just have to watch the events in Syria and Egypt e.t.c. for people who are revolting/protesting for real political reasons.
 
Spokker said:
We have a big problem in the US right now where there are way more college students than there is demand for them. We have been operating on the mindset that everybody is university material and giving out financial aid like it's candy. The bachelor's degree is being weakened these days.

There is no shame in vocational work and you can make a good living being a plumber or an electrician.
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Now you've got a point there.
 
Spokker said:
We have a big problem in the US right now where there are way more college students than there is demand for them. We have been operating on the mindset that everybody is university material and giving out financial aid like it's candy.

There is no shame in vocational work and you can make a good living being a plumber or an electrician.
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What you're suggesting is pigeon-holing people at secondary school into government-mandated career paths from a really early age. Frankly, that's really creepy.
 
SapientWolf said:
In the UK? Maybe nothing on this scale, but the Brixton Riots were pretty bad.

Worldwide? Throughout history? Not the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last. But I was really addressing the sentiment that "this generation of youth has gone astray," which is reliably cyclical.
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I tend to agree with Smokeydave. You want facts? here we go.

The number of indictable offences per thousand population in
1900 was 2.4 and in 1997 the figure was 89.1.
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http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf

Nope, people aren't just assuming the old days were better - they were better.
 
Wiseblade said:
What you're suggesting is pigeon-holing people at secondary school into government-mandated career paths from a really early age. Frankly, that's really creepy.
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Not only is it creepy, but ironically what some authoritarian communist countries do.
 
Wiseblade said:
What you're suggesting is pigeon-holing people at secondary school into government-mandated career paths from a really early age. Frankly, that's really creepy.
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What? No, he's talking about making them professionals - "trades" are mostly private sector, pay well and provide stable middle-class incomes. What does that have to do with government jobs?


And I don't know what your high school experience was like, but it is a FACT that not everyone is or should be college material.

I grew up in the UK - with free access to college or university - all you had to do was get good grades. The majority of my classmates went off to get jobs after high school. It's normal, sustainable and in no way creepy. What is creepy is pigeonholing people into college they're not motivated or smart enough to be at.
 
Wiseblade said:
What you're suggesting is pigeon-holing people at secondary school into government-mandated career paths from a really early age. Frankly, that's really creepy.
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No real difference from what we are doing right now with college.

We are basically making university the end-all be-all goal for high school students whether or not they are going to do well. "We gotta get more kids into college" is the mantra. We put up propaganda that tells students, "This is what you make with a high school diploma and this is what you make with a college diploma and this is what you make with a master's and whoops we forget to account for ability bias."

People respond to incentives and the government aid that is out there is a huge incentive. Incentivizing vocational work for some students would not be a huge difference.
Jin34 said:
Not only is it creepy, but ironically what some authoritarian communist countries do.
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I would not advocate that the government tell a student, "Okay, you're going to be a bricklayer."

And if someone is steered into the wrong track for them, then they continue to have free will and can try their hand at another path. People who *want* to go to college but didn't do so well in high school have junior college to prove themselves. Anybody can go and sign up for classes at the community college for any reason, from transferring to a four-year school or simply for the fun of learning. That's what they are for.

But if you don't have the ability or the drive, you are going to wash out of the system anyway.
 
Aside from all the talk about discipline etc... Are there any real action points tonight? It looks like a washout in Manchester and the rest of the north, I think the looters are scared as fuck of the Asian gangs in Bham out for blood and there are 16k police holding the peace in London.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
Who the hell said anything about arming them. I am talking about 9 months of hardcore drills, waking up early, more drills, cross country running, waking up even earlier, maybe some more drills.
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that's what boot camp is for.
 
Shiloa said:
Not discounting the figures, but where was the statisticians and bureaucracy there is now to genuinely count offences?
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It would be based on reported offences? no?

I don't know exactly where the figures come from, but I would imagine it was reported offences.
 
Spokker said:
We have a big problem in the US right now where there are way more college students than there is demand for them. We have been operating on the mindset that everybody is university material and giving out financial aid like it's candy. The bachelor's degree is being weakened these days and now you need a master's just to separate yourself from the pack.

There is no shame in vocational work and you can make a good living being a plumber or an electrician. A lot of the good manufacturing jobs are gone, and I don't think turning everybody into scholars is going to work.
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Part of it is what people are going to school for. The demand for math and science majors is very high, to the point where we're importing people with these skills.

People with certain degrees are probably having a hard time, but if you can't find a software engineering job right now I'd be pretty surprised. Unless you lack skill or aren't willing to move to take it.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/service-o...ips-below-4-skills-hunt-escalates-survey/7114

Anyone looking for a IT sweet spot should look to data sciences and learn some Java.
 
Spokker said:
No real difference from what we are doing right now with college.

We are basically making university the end-all be-all goal for high school students whether or not they are going to do well. "We gotta get more kids into college" is the mantra. We put up propaganda that tells students, "This is what you make with a high school diploma and this is what you make with a college diploma and this is what you make with a master's and whoops we forget to account for ability bias."

People respond to incentives and the government aid that is out there is a huge incentive. Incentivizing vocational work for some students would not be a huge difference.I would not advocate that the government tell a student, "Okay, you're going to be a bricklayer."
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There's a difference between creating inventives for vocational training and saying "ok, half of you get to go to university and half of you have to work on a factory."
 
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