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[Duckhuntdog]

Why? Because the same haters will have more ammunition with which to sling their tired comments? Yes, I understand that Rare's releases since the start of this generation (or earlier, depending on your view) have been largely unpopular and generally considered to be of much less quality than is expected of them. What I don't understand is how people can simply write off the entire future for the developer, in terms of being able to put out great games.

No, because if you haven't noticed, MS and MSG have been wielding the axe lately on their teams. Time is ticking for Rare and I wouldn't be surprised it the axe is looming over them as well.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

That would be ridicuous, IMO. Who else is going to put those IPs to use? That'd be closer to throwing money down the drain than anything else.

 

[Ghost]

Rare wont be going anywhere, some of the employees might get the axe if things dont go as planned on xenon, but rare itself is a mighty piece of real estate, you dont just 'axe' 6 (or so) development teams and a state of the art facility with motion capture equipment.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Conker team is pretty much intact, so at least you haters have that series to look foward too. Also Perfect Dark guys except for Hollis are still at Rare

There are five people working at Free Radical that worked on Goldeneye, two of the worked on PD as well. That's not including Martin Hollis. Speaking of, where's Game Zero? I don't think Rare was such a bad purchase for MS. Yeah, they haven't released a whole lot of games on Xbox, but I garauntee you if they would have stayed at Nintendo, GC would have seen the new Conker and Perfect Dark which could have put up a good fight against Halo. MS basically bought the competition from Nintendo. Rare was a vital asset to Nintendo. I think they would be in a better situation today had they not sold Rare.

 

[gofreak]

"What's really unusual about this deal is that there's so much development that's so far in progress that we can take - the only thing that's assigned to Nintendo is Star Fox which just shipped. Everything else is ready to switch over and start to exploit the Xbox. I feel like we get such a running start from this deal as opposed to taking two or three years to start something from scratch and bring it all the way through." - Ed Fries, X02 (just after the Rare deal)


Some great foresight there, eh?

edit - also, about switching platforms and development difficulities, Chris Stamper said:

"[Xbox]'s the best development environment we've ever experienced. The Kameo demo that was shown last night took us two and a half weeks to put together. We're just amazed by how easy that was."

 

[Drek]

Eh, I expect Rare to make some noise next gen after MS has basically retooled the entire company with at least enough structure to get games out consistantly and reliably. Perfect Dark 0 and Conker I think could be very big games next generation for them, though I think Kameo will be an average seller at best.

As for all this crap MS is likely to face with Bungie, how hard is it for them to just let Bungie make something other than Halo for once? They handed MS the co-system seller of this generation (GTA being its counterpart), why not let them take a shot at another genre and see if they can find the same success in a different genre, making their next console attractive to more than just FPS fans. They'll still have Perfect Dark which can be a launch game, and Halo 3 which could be released a couple years after launch when it'd really maximize sales and help drive hardware if timed with a console price drop for the holidays. In many U.S. and European companies great games are a product of great teams, not one guy's vision, like it somewhat is in Japan. If you don't keep the talent happy you ruin franchises.

I don't quite see how the business management side of these companies can all be so oblivious to reality. ;P

 

[Kiriku]

but I garauntee you if they would have stayed at Nintendo, GC would have seen the new Conker and Perfect Dark which could have put up a good fight against Halo. MS basically bought the competition from Nintendo. Rare was a vital asset to Nintendo. I think they would be in a better situation today had they not sold Rare.

You seriously think Conker and Perfect Dark would've given Halo a good fight? I find that very unlikely. How much did Conker and Perfect Dark sell? And also, which Halo are you talking about? Not a chance that Perfect Dark would be out in time for Halo 2 no matter if Rare made it for Nintendo or Microsoft. Maybe you're talking about Halo 3...

 

[Mzo]

but I garauntee you if they would have stayed at Nintendo, GC would have seen the new Conker and Perfect Dark which could have put up a good fight against Halo.

lol

 

[Redbeard]

The new Conker only exists because of Live. GC would've never seen it.

 

[D'ultimate]

I say Rare was a good purchase for MS in the fact it took them away from Nintendo where their familiarity with their (NiN's) system would have allowed them to probably develop better games and keep interest in Nintendo by Rare's fans.

Basically I think that MS stole some of the Big N's thunder.

 

[gofreak]

I say Rare was a good purchase for MS in the fact it took them away from Nintendo where their familiarity with their (NiN's) system would have allowed them to probably develop better games and keep interest in Nintendo by Rare's fans.

Basically I think that MS stole some of the Big N's thunder.

I'd agree, but it could potentially have been much greater for them this generation. It's like they stole their thunder, and then muffled it to a silence instead of amplifying it and throwing it right back at them.

 

[ge-man]

I say Rare was a good purchase for MS in the fact it took them away from Nintendo where their familiarity with their (NiN's) system would have allowed them to probably develop better games and keep interest in Nintendo by Rare's fans.

Basically I think that MS stole some of the Big N's thunder.

I don't think it was great move. It wasn't like they stole them from Nintendo--Nintendo rejected RARE for essentially the same reason RARE is being trolled for right now.

If MS want's to make good on that huge investment, there needs to be a shake up. If the rumors that have been flung around have merit, the corporate culture at RARE is its biggest enemy.

 

[Shiggy]

"What's really unusual about this deal is that there's so much development that's so far in progress that we can take - the only thing that's assigned to Nintendo is Star Fox which just shipped. Everything else is ready to switch over and start to exploit the Xbox. I feel like we get such a running start from this deal as opposed to taking two or three years to start something from scratch and bring it all the way through." - Ed Fries, X02 (just after the Rare deal)

MMORPG (Quest, later Sabre Man Xbox)-> cancelled
Conker 2 -> cancelled
Arc Angel (futuristic racer) -> cancelled
Sabre Man Stampede/Donkey Kong Racing -> cancelled (many Rare members who worked on this project left Rare)
Perfect Dark Zero -> TBD
Kameo -> TBD
Conker Remake -> March 2005

It's Mr. Pants -> January 2005
Banjo Pilot -> February 2005 (it was announced for 2001 as Diddy Kong Pilot and the name change for June 2004)
Donkey Kong Country 3 -> sometime 2005

There are more games, that were cancelled, but nothing is known about them.

 

[Culex]

The Stamper family needs to go, that's the problem.

 

[ninge]

if most of what has been said about rare by the people who are actually there can be believed then most of the middle management needs to go too..

Changing system from gamecube to xbox can't be blamed for more than a half year delay at the most (and that's pushing it) if they were wanting to add new features that only xbox supports.

You're basically going from OpenGL to directX and to a machine with more memory and more power. It's not like it's rocket science. As they pointed out themselves, doing the porting was easy (2 1/2 weeks for the kameo demo) and they already had their tools and technology in place from doing SFA so it's not much work to write new exporters and get things going very quickly.

The sheer amount of canned projects speaks for itself. Rares method of hiring students with no experience, paying them peanuts and expecting to get stellar results before they burn out and leave seems to have fallen on it's ass since the old guard left and there is nobody left to hold peoples hands..

 

[MassiveAttack]

The Stamper family needs to go, that's the problem.

Agreed. Spending time at Rare with the Stampers is one of the most eye-opening experiences you can imagine. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[MrPing1000]

Nintendo needs to tell us what they spent the money on. I'm hoping vibrating chairs for all employees

 

[GDGF]

Nintendo needs to tell us what they spent the money on. I'm hoping vibrating chairs for all employees

Yamauchi spent it on hookers and Viagra.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Agreed. Spending time at Rare with the Stampers is one of the most eye-opening experiences you can imagine. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Testify! Any Rare ex-employees wanna give us the nitty gritty on what the hell the people at Rare are doing?

 

[Ranger X]

Smartest Nintendo move since a long time.
I mean, Rare is underproductive and even after 10 000 delays, they aren't repaying us in quality. Fuck them really. I don't care anymore.


Rare = it's rare our games comes out and it's rare it's worth the incredibly long delay.

 

[UltimateMarioMan]

I don't think Rare was such a bad purchase for MS. Yeah, they haven't released a whole lot of games on Xbox,

Lets see if you can grasp this. If things continue like this Retro a company like one tenth Rares size will have completed as many GC games as Rare X-Box games. THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!

 

[thorns]

Rare is still hiring new people, so I don't think things are going as bad as bad you people think. Also Rare is a huge company, many times the size of Retro.

 

[MrparisSM]

Smartest Nintendo move since a long time.
I mean, Rare is underproductive and even after 10 000 delays, they aren't repaying us in quality. Fuck them really. I don't care anymore.


Rare = it's rare our games comes out and it's rare it's worth the incredibly long delay.

Ok now this RARE bashing is getting a bit ridiculous. True enough RARE(just like Nintendo) delay their games a lot. But since when have they ever NOT been worth the wait?

 

[Ranger X]

Ok now this RARE bashing is getting a bit ridiculous. True enough RARE(just like Nintendo) delay their games a lot. But since when have they ever NOT been worth the wait?

The last really good rare game i played was Perfect Dark. It's been a fucking while.
Star Fox ADV was good but not great. Banjo-Tooie was shit. Ghoulies is quite shitty too.
Rare is getting longer and longer to make games and the quality seems to be dropping. It's pretty sad i guess.
I still have hopes that Conker and Kameo will be good you know.
( and whatever, why getting sensitive for Rare, i'm the first one to tell people not to care about gaming companies lol)

 

[soundwave05]

My feelings are mixed on this.

Yes, clearly Rare's output this generation is abyssmal. Yes, they seem to be treading water these days without a clear creative direction.

But I feel Nintendo has yet to fill this void. Retro Studios alone doesn't cut it IMO. They have badly missed out on getting a "GoldenEye" type hit to appeal beyond their usual fanbase this generation.

I wouldn't have minded Nintendo buying out the Stamper's share in Rare and restructuring the company similar to what they did with Retro (Spanenberg out).

Also the idea of selling a developer (and their IPs) to a company you're competing against (Microsoft) doesn't really sit that well with me.

 

[jedimike]

Ok now this RARE bashing is getting a bit ridiculous. True enough RARE(just like Nintendo) delay their games a lot. But since when have they ever NOT been worth the wait?

It is ridiculous, but there are still a lot of bitter N-fans out there who can't let it go. I guarantee you one thing, If Nintendo still owned Rare right now they wouldn't be losing the console race.

After MS bought Rare, the momentum started swinging there way. It solidified MS as a legitimate contender in the industry. With that came more developers, publishers, and customers.

Rare delays are most likely due to MS's new mantra of quality over quantity. MS is not reluctant to delay any game if they think it will be better for it.

 

[soundwave05]

Nintendo would still be losing the console war with Rare.

You're telling me Grabbed By The Ghoulies and Kameo and a remake of Conker's Bad Fur Day would allow the GameCube to outsell the XBox in North America?

Rare's delays are simply because they're Rare. This is nothing new, its just gotten worse over the years.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was Perfect Dark Zero on the GameCube. When Nintendo saw that PDZ wouldn't be ready by 2005 at the earliest (as IGN reported), that was probably it right there. The other stuff GameCube had in development honestly wouldn't help the GC at all.

It's almost 2005 and we haven't see one single screen or video of this game. I think that speaks volumes.

Not to mention that new "cartoony" Joanna Dark probably would've caused some Nintendo-centric bashing "OMG!!! They toon-shaded Joanna just like Celda!!!! Teh Kiddie!!!", even though apparently that was all Rare's decision.

 

[jedimike]

Nintendo would still be losing the console war with Rare.

You're telling me Grabbed By The Ghoulies and Kameo and a remake of Conker's Bad Fur Day would allow the GameCube to outsell the XBox in North America?

Rare's delays are simply because they're Rare. This is nothing new, its just gotten worse over the years.

That's not what I'm telling you. I'm saying that the perceived value of Nintendo diminished and the perceived value of Xbox increased. Up until the Rare deal, Nintendo only had a handful fewer games than Xbox. Many still believed that Microsoft wasn't fully dedicated to Xbox and developers were hesitant. The $400 million dollar sale of Rare added infinite credibility to whatever MS was doing with Xbox. Publishers/developers knew that MS was serious.

At the same time, publishers/developers started to doubt the GC. No Rare, no online gaming plan, and a new President certainly weighed on their (publishers) decisions.

 

[soundwave05]

That's not what I'm telling you. I'm saying that the perceived value of Nintendo diminished and the perceived value of Xbox increased.

To who exactly? The average consumer buying an XBox is really thinking "well, I like XBox and GameCube equally, but boy Rare signing that deal with Microsoft puts it over the top".

To industry pundits, sure yeah, maybe that buy out signalled that MS was in the business for the long haul, but that should've been evident from the launch of the XBox.

The XBox is outselling the GameCube because right now there's a bigger market for product aimed at older players. And Microsoft has done a good job in securing enough strong content for this auidence and making sure there's a constant stream of it.

They've also marketed the unit well and the fact that it's got a technology/feature set advantage over the PS2 makes it stand out a bit more.

That's why the XBox is doing well in the U.S. (along with the obvious -- they have a real killer app in Halo). None of those reasons have anything to do with Rare.

Honestly, Rare is going to be hurt by this deal in the long run IMO. Their strongest IP was Donkey Kong, taking that away is like taking the Final Fantasy name away from Square.

 

[jedimike]

To who exactly?

To the Publisher who decide which sytems to put the games on.

The XBox is outselling the GameCube because right now there's a bigger market for product aimed at older players. And Microsoft has done a good job in securing enough strong content for this auidence and making sure there's a constant stream of it.

Wrong. If you recall, Gamecube outsold Xbox last year. At $99, GC should be outselling everything. Xbox is outselling Gamecube right now for lots of reasons, but the biggest reason is because of Nintendo's ultra-conservative business practices. They aren't willing to spend the kind of money it takes to be a leader in the market.

That's why the XBox is doing well in the U.S. (along with the obvious -- they have a real killer app in Halo). None of those reasons have anything to do with Rare.

Rare is what kicked it off. It was the beginning of the butterfly effect. Like I said, up until then, Nintendo had a strong European lead and were a very solid #2 in the market.

Honestly, Rare is going to be hurt by this deal in the long run IMO. Their strongest IP was Donkey Kong, taking that away is like taking the Final Fantasy name away from Square.

Rare is protected... the company is bought and paid for. There is no way they can get hurt because MS owns Rare. Sure, MS could dissolve Rare, fire all the employees and sell the rights off, but it's irrelevant because that's MS losing the IP, not Rare.

 

[soundwave05]

I don't think your points really match up.

So the GameCube started off fast in Europe, but slowed because Rare switched sides? It was actually more because Nintendo had a trickle of software post-launch, while MS dramatically cut their price in Europe.

You could list 10 reasons why the XBox has been relatively successful, I doubt Rare would even be a factor that even cracks the top 10.

No one says "Nintendo has archaic business practises, so I'm buying XBox".

Most people don't even know the inner workings of these companies at all, I think you're mistaking the Gaming-Age posters here who know the industry almost inside out with how the average joe thinks when he makes his decision to buy a console.

Flat out, XBox has better marketing, aggressive price cuts/bundles, more software for older consumers, a fancier feature set, and a bonafide fresh killer app in Halo. Those are the real reasons why its outperforming the GCN.

The pricing thing is overrated, consumers know that their consoles are a long term investment, something they're going to be using for a few years at least. They're OK with paying an extra $50 if it means getting a system better suited to their tastes.

Rare has been a total non-factor for both Nintendo and Microsoft. Grabbed By The Ghoulies is their lowest selling game in over a decade.

 

[MrparisSM]

Actually Rare being on Xbox was one of my main reasons for switching systems. I loved thei N64 games. And I loved SFA on the Gamecube(a lot more than I like Zelda:WW). So saying they don't have any pull with the average consumer is wrong. Nintendo should have never given up Rare, I don't care how slow they are with making games. Oh well.

 

[duderon]

Actually Rare being on Xbox was one of my main reasons for switching systems. I loved thei N64 games. And I loved SFA on the Gamecube(a lot more than I like Zelda:WW). So saying they don't have any pull with the average consumer is wrong. Nintendo should have never given up Rare, I don't care how slow they are with making games. Oh well.

You are part of an extremely small minority. I would have bought a Xbox if Rare released a new Conker or PD0, but they have faltered.

 

[soundwave05]

You are not the average consumer though. You post on Gaming Age and probably have a knowledge of the industry beyond the average joe.

If Rare is such a huge factor, I would think Grabbed By The Ghoulies would've sold at least 100,000 copies. It might be Microsoft's lowest selling selling this generation.

The GCN didn't exactly get a sales boost from Star Fox Adventures either.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

That would be ridicuous, IMO. Who else is going to put those IPs to use? That'd be closer to throwing money down the drain than anything else.

*looks at MSG recent game cancellations and losses on the Xbox*

You were saying...

 

[jedimike]

I don't think your points really match up.

So the GameCube started off fast in Europe, but slowed because Rare switched sides? It was actually more because Nintendo had a trickle of software post-launch, while MS dramatically cut their price in Europe.

You could list 10 reasons why the XBox has been relatively successful, I doubt Rare would even be a factor that even cracks the top 10.

No one says "Nintendo has archaic business practises, so I'm buying XBox".

Most people don't even know the inner workings of these companies at all, I think you're mistaking the Gaming-Age posters here who know the industry almost inside out with how the average joe thinks when he makes his decision to buy a console.

Flat out, XBox has better marketing, aggressive price cuts/bundles, more software for older consumers, a fancier feature set, and a bonafide fresh killer app in Halo. Those are the real reasons why its outperforming the GCN.

The pricing thing is overrated, consumers know that their consoles are a long term investment, something they're going to be using for a few years at least. They're OK with paying an extra $50 if it means getting a system better suited to their tastes.

Rare has been a total non-factor for both Nintendo and Microsoft. Grabbed By The Ghoulies is their lowest selling game in over a decade.

You're missing the point. Put the games aside for a minute. I'm not saying consumers changed sides because Rare did. I'm saying the Rare sale had a bigger effect with Publishers. Once Publishers believed that Xbox was for real, they increased the number of titles for the system. Eventually consumers noticed the disparity between the number of games on GC and the number of games available on Xbox.

I never said that Rare made the Xbox what it is today, but it did have a big enough influence to make the Xbox the #2 console. They started the chain reaction.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

The Stamper family needs to go, that's the problem.

Can't, they are contractually locked in to stay at Rare for a certain amount of time or projects, I forget which one.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Rare is still hiring new people, so I don't think things are going as bad as bad you people think. Also Rare is a huge company, many times the size of Retro.

For a company many times the size of Retro, they sure aren't productive as Retro.

Anyway, Retro is going to expand.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

They started the chain reaction.

Rare started nothing. If you think MS buying Rare started some chain reaction, you're off your rocker or your xbot glasses are on way too tight.

 

[Alf-Life]

Agreed. Spending time at Rare with the Stampers is one of the most eye-opening experiences you can imagine. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Why? Did you get to see the One Ring that Bill gave them?
No more LOTR for you.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I don't see why people think Rare wouldn't have put out more games had they stayed with Nintendo. They released plenty of games on N64, and the short time they spent on GC was an uncertain period because of the likelyhood of them leaving Nintendo. That's one reason they didn't release more games. Then they went to XBOX which I'm sure took some time to adjust to. Plus MS doesn't want Perfect Dark or maybe even Kameo on Xbox. They're saving it for Xenon. GC would have already seen both of those games by now, and Perfect Dark Zero wil give Halo a run for it's money. Why else would MS delay it's release unless they knew it would be a big seller and interfere with Halo?

 

[CrimsonSkies]

I'll judge Rare next gen. Switching platforms and going from a predominately 5 to 13 year old demographic to an adult demographic is tough. Conker looks sweet as hell and that alone makes me glad Rare is making games for the Xbox. We all know Perfect Dark Zero is going to be the Halo 2 for Microsoft at E3 next year as well.

 

[Red Dolphin]

I'll judge Rare next gen. Switching platforms and going from a predominately 5 to 13 year old demographic to an adult demographic is tough. Conker looks sweet as hell and that alone makes me glad Rare is making games for the Xbox. We all know Perfect Dark Zero is going to be the Halo 2 for Microsoft at E3 next year as well.

Kameo and Grabbed by the Ghoulies are aimed at adults?

Perfect Dark Zero at next E3? :lol

I love(d) Rare but I'm extremely disapointed with their output this generation. I mean it's taken them over 2 years to do a remake of an N64 game? Pathetic. Yes it looks gorgeous and they have an all new multiplayer component but it should not have taken this long.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

"... Grabbed by the Ghoulies are aimed at adults?"

And we saw how well the game sold as well.

Perfect Dark Zero is the Halo of the Xenon launch. If you don't want to believe it, I don't really care.

 

[luxsol]

I'll judge Rare next gen. Switching platforms and going from a predominately 5 to 13 year old demographic to an adult demographic is tough. Conker looks sweet as hell and that alone makes me glad Rare is making games for the Xbox. We all know Perfect Dark Zero is going to be the Halo 2 for Microsoft at E3 next year as well.

I agree that we shouldn't be judging Rare for this generation when it obviously seems they're waiting for the next gen.

Switching platforms shouldn't be an excuse when much smaller companies didn't have a problem.

Though... what are you saying about switching demographics? It hasn't changed the way they make their games. Rare made Conker last gen and also had redone the graphics for Jet Force Gemini (early versions used "kiddy" models) to give it a broader audience appeal.

 

[boutrosinit]

Rare is ass. If MS had any brains they'd shut them down altogether. What a waste of money.

I believe this news.