paragonpro
Banned
As my first souls game I fucking loved it, ive been obsessively playing the excellent bloodborne to but i dont like it nearly as much. (Still a great game though!)
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LTTP: Dark Souls II. What the hell is this?
- Thread starter Nev
- Start date
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Definitely a minority opinion, just based off the original DS2 thread. I'm sort of with you though, never minded DS endgame areas at all. Then again, I definitely feel DS2 gets stronger as you progress.
Great games, both of 'em, it's just that Dark Souls is a masterpiece. Tough to live up to that.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
It seems to me that some players are just resistant to the idea that a diverse set of offensive options are more effective than mastering a single style. I've noticed that in every Souls' game, the areas that tend to get the most flak are those that have a specific, non-standard, approach that is much more effective than any other way.
I also have to say that I love that DS2's "differences" make it the game in the series that requires the most adaptation in order to succeed. I think its good that its more than a carbon-copy of DS1 mechanically.
And they give you a narrow connective bridge to thin the herd. Most of the time you do actually get a herd you are given terrain to fight them with if you are cunning. Yolo types will get frustrated.
@OP I couldn't disagree with you more. DS2 can stand on its own merit. Just dumped another 50 hours into it and I still have 2 dlc to go on this play through. The biggest issue I have with ds2 is that you have to wait for the dlc to get atmosphere close to Ds1. However, many of the levels in ds1 were just as small and narrow, if not more so, than ds2. There was magic in the connective tissue that ds1 got away with it because it felt bigger than it was. And the big areas in ds2 before the dlc were often times empty like shrine of amana. That area is as big as blighttown but it isn't used to vertical effect and feels empty. There is more up front lore in soa than blighttown which is crazy.
you have to prime the lore npcs to show up in blighttown where you get the milfanitos dialog out right
But them you have the Bastille which is a pretty good area in size and used correctly IMO.
I think people need to give ds2 a chance. Pick up a bastard sword or the claymore and relive the dream.
Nah, he's basically just as boring as every other fight in the game, and his lunge across the room animation is absolutely shameful. Did him in 2 or 3 in SotFS and the runback was obnoxious as fuck. Just another part of the "t-t-the DLC fixes it honest" meme
I edited the excessive cursing out of the OP because it was a product of anger and doesn't add anything of value to my opinion. Sorry for that, I was so mad.
I'm having a hard time changing that opinion though after I've been suffering the same mess of wonky hitboxes, poor feedback -your character doesn't notice that he's been hit when rolling, he just keeps doing his thing- and cheap level design and difficulty. Those vikings that start ice skating when their attack is not going to hit you to make sure it's hitting are so fun to deal with, especially when there's 3 of them at the same time along with dogs with inconsistent hitbox and smaller zombies that spam attacks at the same time.
I didn't know the zone was optional and the reward was the item to cure stone people apparently (I know the ship is supposed to be explored because I saw a NPC there but after dying of infinite poison for destroying a vessel I'm not coming back to this nightmare of a place until I'm stuck somewhere else or I can oneshot my way through the endless gangs of people inside every single building.
I'm having a hard time changing that opinion though after I've been suffering the same mess of wonky hitboxes, poor feedback -your character doesn't notice that he's been hit when rolling, he just keeps doing his thing- and cheap level design and difficulty. Those vikings that start ice skating when their attack is not going to hit you to make sure it's hitting are so fun to deal with, especially when there's 3 of them at the same time along with dogs with inconsistent hitbox and smaller zombies that spam attacks at the same time.
I didn't know the zone was optional and the reward was the item to cure stone people apparently (I know the ship is supposed to be explored because I saw a NPC there but after dying of infinite poison for destroying a vessel I'm not coming back to this nightmare of a place until I'm stuck somewhere else or I can oneshot my way through the endless gangs of people inside every single building.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I also made the mistake of trying this after Bloodborne, spent about 10 hours playing before I gave up. It's not a bad game but it was inferior to BB in every conceivable way. Gonna give DS3 a go though.
Iva Demilcol
Member
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
It's not that bad. I'm playing through it for the first time now, never having played vanilla DS2. The only hiccups I had were getting used to the new movement, backstabbing, and going to Heide's tower first by accident (I think at least half of the people who play the game do this).
I just mean stuff like trying to comprehend the turtle gangbang sliding off the roof near Dennis the Armorer or random dragon from the end of the game at Heide's + Heide Knight's going ape shit after Dragon Rider, none of it is newbie friendly at all
Tomeru
Member
This here thread proves that team b made several version of Dark Souls 2. I read the op and my response was "lol wut". Too much hyperbole there.
The only REAL problem DS2 had, imho, is that it had too much "variety" and so it felt like it had less focus, but the mechanics were absolutely better than DS1. I would like DS3 to have the variety and focus of DS1, and the fluid feeling of DS2s' combat.
The only REAL problem DS2 had, imho, is that it had too much "variety" and so it felt like it had less focus, but the mechanics were absolutely better than DS1. I would like DS3 to have the variety and focus of DS1, and the fluid feeling of DS2s' combat.
I have to agree with most things the OP is saying.
To me also, even before I saw others say the same sort of things, upon first playing I immediately noticed differences in especially the animations and feel of movement / combat but without really being able to pinpoint exactly what these were. It has something to do with a sense of weight for the character, who now feels weightless sometimes and as if he/she is sliding over the floor instead of walking. Part of this is due to the animations I think, which in general feel less polished and refined.
I do still like DS2 for the most part despite this though, and some areas like Majula have become favorites of mine. That said, some of the other areas did look quite shitty, like the forest path, and the world could feel unconnected sometimes as well.
Bloodborne, DeS and DS1 all were better in both overall world design, atmosphere and movement / animation / weight, I find. Maybe this was the shift in team members, or a rushed development cycle, but again I have to agree with the OP that DS2 often feels like someone else tried to make a Souls game by copying the past games' critical elements but without being able to inject it with the same soul (no pun intended) in terms of movement, combat and world design.
To me also, even before I saw others say the same sort of things, upon first playing I immediately noticed differences in especially the animations and feel of movement / combat but without really being able to pinpoint exactly what these were. It has something to do with a sense of weight for the character, who now feels weightless sometimes and as if he/she is sliding over the floor instead of walking. Part of this is due to the animations I think, which in general feel less polished and refined.
I do still like DS2 for the most part despite this though, and some areas like Majula have become favorites of mine. That said, some of the other areas did look quite shitty, like the forest path, and the world could feel unconnected sometimes as well.
Bloodborne, DeS and DS1 all were better in both overall world design, atmosphere and movement / animation / weight, I find. Maybe this was the shift in team members, or a rushed development cycle, but again I have to agree with the OP that DS2 often feels like someone else tried to make a Souls game by copying the past games' critical elements but without being able to inject it with the same soul (no pun intended) in terms of movement, combat and world design.
Thanks, I thought I liked that fight but you have opened my eyes.
I was just lying, just like everyone else who claimed to like it!
DoubleTake
Member
Dark Souls 2 combat is fluid....lol Like fluidly moving through sludge at Zero gravity.
Zombegoast
Member
Have people forgotten that PvP sucks in Dark Souls 2? Builds becomes irrelevant after a certain threshold thanks to Soul Memory and start seeing people wearing heavy armor and buffs that takes little damage. But that doesn't matter because Poise is broken in Dark Souls 2 so a dagger can stop a full Havel. Invaders are at a huge disadvantage because they have no healing items with Miracles taking too long to cast making them useless.
Let' not forget that they had to re-balance the game every month because of Monastery Scimitar, the Spells, the consumables(for the worse), The weapon balance and buff stacking.
Oh yeah, the Turtle moshpit and Dennis gave me problems, too. They were a little easier with the mage NPC you can summon just a little bit before it, but I still had to run away and take them out one at a time. I think I finally ended up using the corner of the building in that area to get some space away from the turtles. But the four or five deaths I got there taught me a lot about how to play the game.
I was lucky I didn't even find out the Heide Knights woke up after Dragon Rider until I came back much later in the game to go down the path I didn't take earlier (which turned out to lead to Cathedral of Blue). So I was SL 80-something and the knights weren't a big deal.
Cannon Goose
Member
I have about 850 hours between the original release and Scholar and while I can say without a doubt that I really enjoyed the game, my biggest issue with it is that it feels unpolished. There are several inconsistencies that make learning how to play the game harder than it should be because the game doesn't follow its own rules.
The three biggest things for me are inconsistent parries, inconsistent phantom behaviour, and bad enemy animations.
Inconsistent Parries
Dark Souls 2 expanded on the parry mechanic from the previous games and gave it some more depth by making certain weapons unparryable, namely two-handed large weapons. This is a good addition because it gives players more options in PvP and if your opponent is a parry king then you can almost completely shut down their go-to manoeuvre by simply two-handing your weapon. However, what makes this whole thing dumb is that when you're not in PvP just about every single attack can be parried, even humanoid enemies using two-handed large weapons. If I can't parry a player who is using a two-handed Dragon Tooth, then why can I parry NPCs that are using the same weapon in the same way?
Inconsistent Phantom Behaviour
This one bothers me because it reeks of either laziness or "artificial difficulty." When I invade as a red phantom I cannot use my Estus Flask but when an NPC red phantom invades me they can chug all they like. It's absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. Like with the parries, if restrictions and rules are going to exist then why not apply them globally?
Bad Enemy Animations
Two enemies in particular are guilty of looking like trash when moving around and I just don't understand why they look so bad. The Hollow Soldiers and the Falconers, who you see a decent amount of in Scholar, can both block without holding their shields up and will even block while in the middle of attacking you. Also, the running animation... Seriously, what the fuck is this and who thought it looked even remotely okay?
To finish, here's some of that good DS2 enemy tracking, feat. Havel-clone.
https://fat.gfycat.com/YellowPointedFlycatcher.webm
https://fat.gfycat.com/GrandTheseBedlingtonterrier.webm
Yes, that's Havel cancelling out of his attack before it ends and almost seamlessly starting another attack before I've even finished rolling.
Dark Souls 2 is a great game but it has a lot of unfortunate rough edges that detract from the experience.
The three biggest things for me are inconsistent parries, inconsistent phantom behaviour, and bad enemy animations.
Inconsistent Parries
Dark Souls 2 expanded on the parry mechanic from the previous games and gave it some more depth by making certain weapons unparryable, namely two-handed large weapons. This is a good addition because it gives players more options in PvP and if your opponent is a parry king then you can almost completely shut down their go-to manoeuvre by simply two-handing your weapon. However, what makes this whole thing dumb is that when you're not in PvP just about every single attack can be parried, even humanoid enemies using two-handed large weapons. If I can't parry a player who is using a two-handed Dragon Tooth, then why can I parry NPCs that are using the same weapon in the same way?
Inconsistent Phantom Behaviour
This one bothers me because it reeks of either laziness or "artificial difficulty." When I invade as a red phantom I cannot use my Estus Flask but when an NPC red phantom invades me they can chug all they like. It's absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. Like with the parries, if restrictions and rules are going to exist then why not apply them globally?
Bad Enemy Animations
Two enemies in particular are guilty of looking like trash when moving around and I just don't understand why they look so bad. The Hollow Soldiers and the Falconers, who you see a decent amount of in Scholar, can both block without holding their shields up and will even block while in the middle of attacking you. Also, the running animation... Seriously, what the fuck is this and who thought it looked even remotely okay?
To finish, here's some of that good DS2 enemy tracking, feat. Havel-clone.
https://fat.gfycat.com/YellowPointedFlycatcher.webm
https://fat.gfycat.com/GrandTheseBedlingtonterrier.webm
Yes, that's Havel cancelling out of his attack before it ends and almost seamlessly starting another attack before I've even finished rolling.
Dark Souls 2 is a great game but it has a lot of unfortunate rough edges that detract from the experience.
Agree with everything you mentioned. It only gets worse from No Man's Wharf.
- The story will be non-existent because it's a shitty retread of DS1.
- The world design gets even more lazy with you actually getting shortcuts right next to a new fucking bonfire.
- Enemies will come in bigger hordes and you'll just have to pick them off one by one because this game is not built for interesting horde encounters like Bloodborne.
- You'll face an optional boss that is impossible to fight unless you pumped points into adaptability because it has a OHKO AoE move that is ridiculously unfair for tanky builds.
- The bosses remain completely mediocre tier. The original final boss is an absolute disgrace to the Souls series but they did rectify that with a patch that introduced a new final boss.
- The ending was extremely unsatisfying until they patched that as well.
It's laughable that people defend the story when the developers had to actively patch it because it made no sense in the lore of Dark Souls. Probably forced to patch it when Miyazaki started development on DS3 and realised what a mess DS2's story was.
It's still better than the vast majority of games but it's just not a Souls game for me. It completely misses the point.
- The story will be non-existent because it's a shitty retread of DS1.
- The world design gets even more lazy with you actually getting shortcuts right next to a new fucking bonfire.
- Enemies will come in bigger hordes and you'll just have to pick them off one by one because this game is not built for interesting horde encounters like Bloodborne.
- You'll face an optional boss that is impossible to fight unless you pumped points into adaptability because it has a OHKO AoE move that is ridiculously unfair for tanky builds.
- The bosses remain completely mediocre tier. The original final boss is an absolute disgrace to the Souls series but they did rectify that with a patch that introduced a new final boss.
- The ending was extremely unsatisfying until they patched that as well.
It's laughable that people defend the story when the developers had to actively patch it because it made no sense in the lore of Dark Souls. Probably forced to patch it when Miyazaki started development on DS3 and realised what a mess DS2's story was.
It's still better than the vast majority of games but it's just not a Souls game for me. It completely misses the point.
I can't think of a single boss where this is the case. Unless this is some reference to Ancient Dragon, who got nerfed into a joke boss in SOTFS and adaptibility won't do shit to save you from it's AOE's anyway (tanking is actually the simplest way to beat it now).
Unless you get technical and count False King. Bloodborne is the first Souls game with a final boss worth a damn
Gehrman anyway, because Wet Nurse and Moon Presence are on the level of the other games
DoubleTake
Member
Great post. Now watch as no one attempts to refute your claim because everything you say is true but proceed to say insubstantial things like "Dark Souls 2 gameplay is more fluid".
That's only a Gaf thing, they repeat it every single thread trying to make it truth someday. I loved the second half of DS1 as well. When I realized I could save Solaire even Lost Izalith became great.
DaciaJC
Gold Member
The gauntlet before his fog gate is a crock of bullshit, no doubt about that. But I thought the fight itself is mechanically very sound. Even the animation for his lunge is fine, since it would look quite silly for each individual step to be animated at the speed he moves.
If you thought the fight was boring, that's fine, to each their own. For me, it was probably the closest equivalent in Dark Souls II to the duel with Artorias in terms of pacing and challenge.
I don't know if I would go that far, personally, but I agree that most of the post-Lordvessel areas are just fine. Duke's Archives, New Londo Ruins, Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants are all great, layered areas with unique twists (screw that first encounter with Seath, though, forced deaths like that are not cool). Even Crystal Cave was quite fun the first couple of times, though the fact it's so short made it lose its luster in later playthroughs.
FF Seraphim
Member
I really like DS2, after getting used to the fact the combat isn't anything like DS1 at the beginning. If people go into the game knowing that, I think they will have a better time with it.
as a follow up to dark souls it didn't capture the same magic for me but I still had a hell of a time with the game, location wise it was far more consistent than dark souls altho didn't have any highs on par with anor londo or the painted world for me. I'm still yet to play the DLC outside of the first one, I played through the entire game 3.5 times or something to platinum it in the first few weeks and it just completely burnt me out. I found DS2 better than Demon's Souls.
i've been playing DS2 for about 50 hours and have still only managed to get light one primal bonfire (I'm assuming that's the main goal here since there's a map for it and everything). I feel like the sense of place is totally missing from this game, and I honestly have no game plan of where to go - I basically flip through the bonfire list and pick one. I had the entirety of DS1's world in my head, but DS2 I can't be bothered and it's not interesting.
I'm in the Iron Keep right now and I'm seriously just trudging through. I have to fight every damn enemy between the start and the Smelter Demon every time I die. For some reason I remember always being much closer to bosses or at least having clearer paths to them to promote retries in DS1. Thankfully, I'm probably only five more tries away from the minor enemies going extinct.
On the other hand, since enemies go extinct now, my play style completely changes because losing enemy souls to a boss arena is much worse since the enemies will eventually not respawn. So if I hit a boss that seems like it will be difficult (granted, this is rarer in DS2 than in DS1 thus far) I'm likely to just run the path to them over and over until the enemies go extinct so as not to lose the gathered souls.
I'm in the Iron Keep right now and I'm seriously just trudging through. I have to fight every damn enemy between the start and the Smelter Demon every time I die. For some reason I remember always being much closer to bosses or at least having clearer paths to them to promote retries in DS1. Thankfully, I'm probably only five more tries away from the minor enemies going extinct.
On the other hand, since enemies go extinct now, my play style completely changes because losing enemy souls to a boss arena is much worse since the enemies will eventually not respawn. So if I hit a boss that seems like it will be difficult (granted, this is rarer in DS2 than in DS1 thus far) I'm likely to just run the path to them over and over until the enemies go extinct so as not to lose the gathered souls.
ChetWilson
Banned
So after you know the zone, you won't be ambushed? Lol.
The game felt like multiple short hallways, leading to radically different unconnected areas, that were packed with hordes of enemies. I want to replay the scholars of the first sin, because never got to play thedlc, in preparation of DSIII. But yeah I definitely agree that the game is carried by the series award winning formula more so than what it brings to the table.
Jawbreaker
Member
It only feels that way because people hold the "souls" games to higher standards. I'm sure some genuinely dislike the game—not just in comparison to the other From titles—but the reason why the criticisms seem harsher and more vocal is because they want to love the game as much as they do the others. It's like how you express and feel more disappointment when someone you expect much better from makes a terrible decision, whereas someone you didn't expect as much from committing the same error won't elicit as harsh a response.
There's no conspiracy; no one's actively trying to piss you off. You can agree or disagree without trying to turn the complaints into a meme in order to discredit others' opinions in a petty manner. "Oh, it's this again!" Yeah, so what? You don't need to belittle others for not agreeing with you.
This isn't entirely aimed at you, by the way; it's just a general statement in regards to Dark Souls II threads. There are great arguments and counterarguments, but between those, also hostility where there should be none. There's no need to defend the game with such emotional voracity. Let's not go telling people they're "playing it incorrectly" or are somehow flawed in their perception.
Hah, if you mean the Iron Passage, I didn't count it in Brume Tower really. Nor did I count Frigid Outskirts as part of Frozen Eleum Loyce. That said, I kind of learned to like Frigid Outskirts if I have a very specific build for it (something that stunlocks the horses really, red iron twinblade FTW) in a way, but yeah it's annoying in most cases and not my favourite by any means.
I mostly mean the room with the fire spewing giant with trap doors above that you're supposed to usher the explosive barrel dudes into, followed by the ledge with mages and melee dudes. It's a bit much and on ng++ I just used alluring skulls to run past it entirely.
Iron Passage isn't my favorite either but i dig it with summons.
Hippopuncher12
Member
I don't think I could disagree anymore. Is it the weakest of all the "Souls" games? Yes. Is it a bad game? Hell no! My only complaint has always been that it had more humanoid type bosses than needed.
Making your way through the level again after dying to the boss is essential to Souls. Sometimes it's a long way, sometimes short. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes hard.
What matters is that it's interesting and engaging, like pretty much any level in Demon's Souls is. There are several instances in DS2 where to get to the boss, all the player has to do is fight through a literal corridor filled with difficult enemies. Black gulch, Drangleic castle and Undead crypt come to mind. It's terrible level design. Other instances like Huntsman's Corpse come close to the way Demon's Souls was designed, but inexplicably botch it utterly. Why would there be a shortcut that just leads to another bonfire, and then no shortcut to the boss?
DS2 is just a poorly designed game in many respects. I don't really fault the team, it seems clear from interviews that the game had to be totally restructured at some point, maybe due to technical issues.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Dark Souls 2 was a disappointment. It was too different. I can see where some people are coming from when they say they love it (that's fine) but there's no denying that it's a significant departure from how previous Souls games operated.
Splitting hairs about how Adapability is actually awesome, or how the whole game is redeemed by "build variety" and PvP, or how the DLC makes it worth slogging through the first part of the game, or whatever is just pointless. The game disappointed a lot of people. That's all there is to it.
Hopefully DS3 can appease those who enjoyed certain aspects of DS2 while also appealing to the DeS and DS1 fans.
Splitting hairs about how Adapability is actually awesome, or how the whole game is redeemed by "build variety" and PvP, or how the DLC makes it worth slogging through the first part of the game, or whatever is just pointless. The game disappointed a lot of people. That's all there is to it.
Hopefully DS3 can appease those who enjoyed certain aspects of DS2 while also appealing to the DeS and DS1 fans.
test_account
XP-39C²
I played Darks Souls 2 + the DLC for about 400 hours, definitelly my most played Souls game. I really liked the game.
If its pointless to mention those things, it also kinda pointless to have this whole thread though. Totally true that its a matter of subjectivity, but so its not liking it.
How is it too different? I've played ever Souls games, and i didnt feel that there were a big difference between them.
If its pointless to mention those things, it also kinda pointless to have this whole thread though. Totally true that its a matter of subjectivity, but so its not liking it.
Ambushes exist all over souls game. NMW ambushes are not cheap at all, you can see them coming if you take it slowly and are careful. If you rush yeah no shit you will get ambushed.
borborygmus
Member
I think people overdo it with their compensatory explanations for why people feel the way they do about the game.
It's a simple (and sometimes intentional) heuristical error. People fallaciously approximate that Dark Souls 2 only seems like garbage because of how great the previous game is, leading to distorted conclusions like "Dark Souls 2 is great, just not a great Souls game."
This is similar to when people claim nostalgia is the only reason why people like certain games. Meta factors are given way too much weight and overshadow actually judging the game on its merits. It's really annoying. (Yes, I'm aware I've gone meta in order to attack the excessive focus on meta factors which lazily dismisses negative opinions).
In reality, it's very easy to understand the reasons why people dislike it:
- The gameplay mechanics are severely downgraded
- The gameplay mechanics are tied to a stat, even though this is primarily an action game
- The world design is nonexistent. People keep bringing up this commonly cited example because it's just egregious: you can take an 'up' elevator from the top of a high tower and reach an underground castle with a moat made of lava.
- Enemy encounter design is extremely repetitive and not at all thought through.
- Cheap enemy AI that perfectly tracks you, has literally unlimited stamina, inconsistent attack recovery time and unlimited poise
- Awful hitboxes
- Wonky "physics." Getting hit by a giant with a sword in Heide's tower of flame doesn't even knock you down; it just makes you flinch.
To many, this is a series about exploration, clever map design, deliberate enemy placement and precise gameplay and combat. Dark Souls II botches all of those things. I say this without even touching upon subjective things like having memorable bosses and lore.
I get that some people are OK with all of the above because they put a higher priority on other things, but it really isn't shocking or hyperbolic when people who dislike the game talk about it.
Mister Wolf
Member
Dark souls 2 has online that gave me a consistant reliable online experience. I tried playing Bloodborne and Dark Souls with my cousin meeting all the requirements for coop and still could barely get him to summon to the point where we just eventually gave up on trying. Bloodborne was so bad I could see his afterimage in my game at the same exact spot and it still wouldn't work. I don't wanna hear any fucking excuses neither. When me and him played Dark Souls 2 wearing those coop rings it worked every single time. I dread the thought of the so called "A" team handling the online for Dark Souls 3.
The player character control and feel is very different compared to the other souls and bloodborne. It just doesn't feel satisfying to play for me, while all the other games I enjoy playing even without reason. I can see someone enjoying the controls and movement in DS2 but I can't understand not seeing how it's different.
test_account
XP-39C²
Fair enough. Its been a while between each Souls games, so perhaps thats why i never really payed attention to it or really noticed anything. But it was not something that stuck out for me personally.
WonderCheese
Banned
It's a miserable game that's an unfortunate stain on the franchise. The only design philosophies were "more" and "make sure it's difficult", but the magic and cohesion are missing. You'd be doing yourself a favor by just quitting now, OP.
I was just showing a video of the 180 tracking jump, it wasn't meant as a carbon copy. The funny thing is Havel has an attack that has remarkable tracking that can 1 shot kill you, but the animation looks better than a lot of the Dark Souls 2 animations so people don't notice it as much.