I mean, you're assuming that the OP intended to be intellectually honest and didn't have a bone to pick with Macron and an intent to cast him as a racist.
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Macron: Africa's issues are "much more sophisticated than a simple money transfer"
- Thread starter TheWasTheJoke
- Start date
I mean, you're assuming that the OP intended to be intellectually honest and didn't have a bone to pick with Macron and an intent to cast him as a racist.
And_Gignac
Member
Woooo really complex and jupiterian rationale.
freeofgreed
Member
What was the original thread title?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Nah you just completely missed his point. He's talking about population densities. There'a enough land and resources there to sustain it's native population for an extremely long time. There isn't some great scarcity of land and won't be for a long long time. China and India problems with population density are why you've seen the measures taken. The point being if Africa isn't anywhere close to having an overpopulation issue why are certain scholars do concerned about it.
Warm Machine
Member
It's such a complex issue and I don't think there is an one morally correct path to take a place like Africa and have it operate likeEurope did. Same goes for South America. The sad thing is both of those places should be go-to destinations of lifestyle and power and they are just catastrophes of the modern world.
Macron: Africa's issues are "civilizational" and due to women having too many kids
It's kind of worrying that when confronted with this kind of blatant editorializing otherwise smart people don't immediately stop to think, wait, what did he actually say, and in what context? Our inherent credulity for damaging stories about political adversaries overrides any sense for basic fact checking. Far left twitter sees Macron as the "enemy" so of course they lapped this up. Not to seem too condescending, because I'm just as guilty of this at times reading some of the crazier stories about Trump et al. Old Media has its problems but I really loathe what New Media is doing to the arena of political discussion.
I didn't miss his point, malthusianism has nothing to do with this issue. Most of China is a population desert outside of the coast and some areas around Sichuan and Wuhan, all of this is completely irrelevant to the problem of development.
MisterFalcon
Member
It was mostly conquest and slavery that established the enormous wealth of the Mali Empire.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Yes, he ignores the fact that European, American, and Chinese companies rip off African workers and steal natural resources.
Yep. There's not a single thing wrong that he says. Everything is racist though.
somecrazymember
Banned
Lol OP failed miserably
Sunster
Member
And that was how empires were formed at the time.
I have nothing wrong with what Macron actually said and I'm glad he's talking about these structural issues sub-Saharan Africa has (I know he just refers to Africa but North Africa is quite well developed and doesn't face half the issues the South does). Just giving more money to Africa isn't going to help as corruption is too high and we'll need to be more inventive with how we help those nations develop into stable and sustainable economies.
Sunster
Member
completely restructuring the way the west "donates" to African countries is a start. in it's current form our charity work keeps people in poverty while sustaining them as opposed to lifting them out of it.
another thing westerners need to understand is that only Africans can fix Africa. Helping them by providing the tools for them to build businesses and participate in international trade and develop infrastructure is one thing. Setting up shop there indefinitely with 10,000 NGO's and dumping free shit from our countries there is another, and it does not help in the long run.
also I feel like most westerners have almost no knowledge of precolonial Africa, just ideas of mud huts and jungle dwellers. So for that reason I believe Henry Louis Gates Jr's, Africa's Great Civilizations a 6 hour series on Africa from the birth of humankind to the dawn of the 20th century is required viewing. http://www.pbs.org/weta/africas-great-civilizations/home/ (will only work for Americans) Don't think I'm allowed to link unofficial sources but all 6 hours are on Youtube for non Americans.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
it's still all very important. Population congregated in cities due to economic prospects as is obvious. We'rd talking about over population here. China and India too k the policies they did because of the nature where that population congregated due to their economy what was feasible long term and estimated population growth. Have you had a look at population densities, the infrastructure and the type of woes common in the most populous Africa countries?I didn't miss his point, malthusianism has nothing to do with this issue. Most of China is a population desert outside of the coast and some areas around Sichuan and Wuhan, all of this is completely irrelevant to the problem of development.
The situation and environment is completely and utterly different.
Conciliator
Banned
macron needs to stop talking in paragraphs of considered viewpoints and references to policy and history
and start talking in social media headlines
catch up man
and start talking in social media headlines
catch up man
Souldriver
Member
I knew entering this thread, based on the title, that I'd have to search for the actual source material to make sure what the facts are. Seeing the OP being heavily redacted already made me chuckle.
The state of today's 'news reporting', especially on the Internet, is disheartening.
The state of today's 'news reporting', especially on the Internet, is disheartening.
Well, Nigeria is going to be more populated than the US by 2050, to give one example. And that's a country that's only twice the size of California.
How are the infrastructure and population densities not similar, in that case?
This is its population density, BTW:
Code:
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Population_density_map_of_Nigerian_states_-_English.png/774px-Population_density_map_of_Nigerian_states_-_English.png[/IMG]And Nigeria is still urbanizing.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Alx
Member
Eh, sadly I'm not surprised to see Macron's position to be competely misrepresented by selective quotes, it's not the first time it happens to him and other politicians who are not "twitter compatible". Those kind of leaders have a complex vision on most issues (the whole context of the original quote was to explain that "the solution is more complex than throwing money at the problem"), but too many people lack the patience of hearing/reading the whole thing.
Of course it doesn't help when their opponents do it on purpose, and try to start a controversy by selecting specific excerpts. Not too long ago Macron was inaugurating a new train line and went into a speech about how train stations are places where all kinds of people meet, people who succeeded and others who didn't, and that it should remind us of the need of solidarity and helping each other and yada yada. Some people just kept "there are people who succeed and others who are nothing" out of it and blamed him for despising the poor, when the intent was the exact opposite.
Of course it doesn't help when their opponents do it on purpose, and try to start a controversy by selecting specific excerpts. Not too long ago Macron was inaugurating a new train line and went into a speech about how train stations are places where all kinds of people meet, people who succeeded and others who didn't, and that it should remind us of the need of solidarity and helping each other and yada yada. Some people just kept "there are people who succeed and others who are nothing" out of it and blamed him for despising the poor, when the intent was the exact opposite.
Too bad that people are trying to make politicians like him sound bad by chopping up long coherent trails of thought into misleading soundbytes. Well done, OP.
I wonder how Trump would have formulated his opinion about it...
Sakura
Member
I understand Africa is expected to have enormous amounts of population growth, but is this realistic?
How would such a population be sustained? Where is the food going to come from? Africa has already been suffering extremely from food scarcity/malnourishment in recent years. An additional billion plus people in 35 years seems unsustainable to me given the current situation there.
Dash_Riprock
Member
"Look at my Africans over there!"
Monty Mole
Member
Birth control in many of these countries is shunned, and it's contributing to the worst conditions on the planet.
The decade-lasting male contraception via injection that costs less than the syringe can't come soon enough.
If we're talking about population, to contrast with the lack of birth control, there is significantly higher infant mortality and significantly shorter life expectancy.
There is a criticism to be made about this statement, but it's certainly not the one OP was trying to make.
https://medium.com/migration-issues/are-africas-problems-due-to-excessive-fertility-c38a958149ec
https://medium.com/migration-issues/are-africas-problems-due-to-excessive-fertility-c38a958149ec
Yeah, clearly the guy who called colonialism a "crime against humanity" (and was vilified by the right for it) is the kind of guy who would ignore the damage colonialism has done to Africa.
Come on now, OP.
"civilizational" wasn't the best word to use, as others have said (structural is a smoother alternative), but intent is important here.
Come on now, OP.
"civilizational" wasn't the best word to use, as others have said (structural is a smoother alternative), but intent is important here.
TheWasTheJoke
Member
My intention wasn't to twist Macron's words I just honestly said what I thought he meant, my mistake for listening to twitter hot-takers too much I guess.
I still think Macron was a little out of line sympathetic and could have been more but he definitely isn't being massively racist like I thought as first.
I'm sorry I couldn't fix the thread more but I've been busy all day, again my fault, anyway should probably do my research properly before making a new thread.
I still think Macron was a little out of line sympathetic and could have been more but he definitely isn't being massively racist like I thought as first.
I'm sorry I couldn't fix the thread more but I've been busy all day, again my fault, anyway should probably do my research properly before making a new thread.
moffattron9000
Member
If that were the case, why would they colonise in the first place?
Conciliator
Banned
that's OK, at least you didn't double down. This sounds like much more of a discussion.Mass_Pincup
Banned
Maybe you can start by stopping the use of the CFA Franc as well as ending the backing of some politicians to further the exploitation of Africa by French companies.
I'm sure it'll help.
I'm sure it'll help.
Agreed. Macron is completely right. Plenty of the issues in Africa this day and age are simply the fault of the Africans themselves. I say this as someone who lived in SA for a while and saw the corruption of Zuma and his cronies firsthand.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
A lot of this is a relic of colonialism, which is why it's complicated and fraught with argument.
The environmental factors are also difficult to surmount without some innovation and funding from centralised African states with strong institutions.
Then you have the pre-colonial quirks of African civilisation, which are again an environmental thing.
To be sure. Africa is a HUGE continent. The way the globe is set up expands the countries up North and South (who were the ones who created the maps OFC), while shrinking equatorial regions.
When I was in high school my teachers had me cut up real sized countries and fit them inside of Africa to give a perspective. You could fit the entirety of the US, China, and the EU and still have room left. I knew how large Africa was before that, but it was another thing to see it.
Africa is the most diverse continent in pretty much any way: genetically, linguistically, culturally, geographically (surpassed only by Eurasia), and agriculturally. We talk about overpopulation in Africa, but are referring to specific regions of Africa really.
It's going to be a challenge, that's for sure. Adding onto what you said, climate change is going to affect Africa more than any other continent, causing aridity changes that are going to make food growth even more difficult. A lot of people are going to suffer no matter how this goes down, not that there's much particularly new about that.
As for how we deal with it? Head on, as with anything else. What we do is hope developments in family planning and female education reduce population growth as much as possible. Furthermore, developments in biotechnology and agriculture can help increase food production, and growth of food in arid areas affected by climate change. Africa has a few things going for it. As I said in an earlier post, Africa has a large amount of arable land (25% of the world's) and by far the most unused arable land (some estimates put it at 70% of the world's).
The problems in malnutrition and starvation tend to be less on the food production side and more on the food distribution. If situations like the conflict in Sudan can be reigned in, it would go a long way into ensuring a well fed populace, and a more stable region. It won't be easy, but taking on challenges like this drive innovation, and ultimately it is a problem that we'll have to face either way, and we can make it through these problems.
Mohonky
Member
This.
Imperialism was a massive contributor to the problems, but not every facet of the issues stems from imperialism but also systems that existed before.
Imperialism presented massive issues for many countries across the globe where for others after Imperialism seceded it was not.
MistakenMobius
Member
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Just had this guy: @S_Saeen (whose tweet was referenced in the first article on the OP) block me. What did I say: I said that taking that 28 second clip out of context encourages outrage.
These people want to live in a echo chamber where they aren't challenged. They're all flash and no substance.
These people want to live in a echo chamber where they aren't challenged. They're all flash and no substance.
Well, after a Wikipedia search, it's also useful for GPS, for similar reasons, which is another reason why everyone knows it. It still totally exaggerates the North and South landmasses though.
Interesting stuff about the fuckery surrounding Gall-Peters map projection though. Geez.
Alx
Member
I'm not sure it's something to consider as a benefit anyway, intentional or not. Mercator was considered convenient because "the more important stuff is near the equator, who cares about Siberia, Greenland and Canada ?". The central parts may be less exaggerated, but it's also because they're more accurate.