The problem is the colour imbalance. Like you said, red is the worst colour because it has neither consistency or power level. You can run Gamble but a percentage of the time it's going to blank. When any black deck can run a handful of tutors for a marginal cost (less threats), it feels a bit unfair. Green also has this issue with Tooth and Nail which is a tutor and combo in one. Banning Demonic Tutor is probably too reactionary, but something like Tooth and Nail definitely deserves to be on the watchlist.
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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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So do you have an argument or..............? I mean its not like they don't have full control of all the cards in this environment. Haven't we been having a weeks/months long conversation, and even WOTC has conceded this point, that they've deemed enough answer/interactive cards "too good" to the point that it has made Standard actually bad?
Mana Leak is too good because in a Tempo shell it's Counterspell. If you're at a point where it's not Counterspell, you've probably already lost.
Miscalculation is nearly as good as Mana Leak in a Tempo shell before you take into account the cycling.
And in a Control shell, it's generally better! Late in the game the cycling massively benefits control decks who have tons of mana to spare.
"Nearly strictly better Mana Leak" is not a card you want to put into Standard when Mana Leak has already proven to be a nightmare.
If you think Mana Leak is an acceptable card for Standard, your opinion is just wrong.
Yes, there aren't enough Answer cards. But printing Answer cards and less powerful Chimeric Idols doesn't mean you have to start printing OP answer cards.
Miscalculation is nearly as good as Mana Leak in a Tempo shell before you take into account the cycling.
And in a Control shell, it's generally better! Late in the game the cycling massively benefits control decks who have tons of mana to spare.
"Nearly strictly better Mana Leak" is not a card you want to put into Standard when Mana Leak has already proven to be a nightmare.
The argument really shouldn't have to be made at this point.
If you think Mana Leak is an acceptable card for Standard, your opinion is just wrong.
Yes, there aren't enough Answer cards. But printing Answer cards and less powerful Chimeric Idols doesn't mean you have to start printing OP answer cards.
Creatures have gotten way better since then.
Yeah but tempo creatures in blue? I'm not seeing it. You'd have to go U/W or something.
Imperfected
Member
Well, yeah. It's mostly down to there not being any instants in Standard (at least, in decent color combinations and mana costs) with the same "pop" as a Dromoka's Command or similar. So instead of turning into some absurd one-sided board wipe, it's just a Flash blocker with some card draw.
Yeah, and you'd have to call it U/W Flash or something...
That deck got Reflector Mage banned.
IMO that snake is not a viable option against control.
You're not going to run more than 6-8 counters in a Standard control deck, and you'll want to save them for planeswalkers and other real threats that don't match up well against your removal.
Serpopard is a non-evasive 4/3 for 3 mana. It's not something you'd want to counter in the first place. Everything answers it, and it doesn't hurt that much to ignore it - especially when it dies to every sweeper, and your (hypothetical) 4-of counterspell can cycle.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Flashing back unlicensed disintegration with Fatcaster is pure crack.
You run them both. Turns 4-6, Glimmer is definitely better, but beyond that, you're able to draw so many cards. This is basically Sphinx's Rev minus the life gain.
Imperfected
Member
Well, there's some support for The Pervert, at least. Not very good support, but he's trying, damnit.
Joe Molotov
Member
Unworthy
They need to print good Minotaurs that cost 2 or less if they want even casual Minotaur tribal to be a thing
I know all the theory but with U/W already taken down a peg and the current environment, I don't feel confident that the reality would actually be disaster. Torrential Gearhulk might be a concern but I still want to see that for myself. We already have like two mechanics in this set that punish or tax counterspells (Embalm and Aftermath). Plus as I said, Miscalculation is better in the "everyone keeps playing Magic" kind of way rather than the "stop everything from happening" kind of way" compared to Mana Leak. That 2 vs 3 mana penalty matters as I'm sure you know. Sorry for not being super convinced its "obvious" at this point. I'm less confident in WOTC's ability to discern the power/over-poweredness of answer cards at this specific junction in time.
I know all the theory but with U/W already taken down a peg and the current environment, I don't feel confident that the reality would actually be disaster. Torrential Gearhulk might be a concern but I still want to see that for myself. We already have like two mechanics in this set that punish or tax counterspells (Embalm and Aftermath). Plus as I said, Miscalculation is better in the "everyone keeps playing Magic" kind of way rather than the "stop everything from happening" kind of way" compared to Mana Leak. That 2 vs 3 mana penalty matters as I'm sure you know. Sorry for not being super convinced its "obvious" at this point. I'm less confident in WOTC's ability to discern the power/over-poweredness of answer cards at this specific junction in time.
Minotaur Commander.
Get those Didgeridoos boyz.
This guy's final ability is not going to make you friends at the Commander table.
This is the same rationale people who ignore economics re: austerity (Kansa, EU) give.
We know pretty clearly where the line is on Answer cards. The bigger problem has been that the threats (like 4cc Gideon who really needs to eat a ban) are too good and aren't even answerable by good removal spells!
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm not really sure how. They're not Zombies themselves.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This is the same rationale people who ignore economics re: austerity (Kansa, EU) give.
We know pretty clearly where the line is on Answer cards. The bigger problem has been that the threats (like 4cc Gideon who really needs to eat a ban) are too good and aren't even answerable by good removal spells!
You literally have to play Anguished Unmaking to kill him, but the 3 life penalty is too enormous given that Gideon is a part of an aggro deck and he leaves behind value regardless of whether you kill him.
Failure to ban Gideon and the Cat would be some kind of critical mass failure of development to give a shit about anything but optics.
Imperfected
Member
Listen, if you let this 2/2 3-drop hit you enough he turns into a 4/2 with First Strike.
I don't know why you'd do that, but if you're the sort of player who just sits around letting chump creatures beat your face, he's like a... well, probably 8-ish turn clock?
Imperfected
Member
Oh, yeah. Not a lot of beef, but what do you expect from an overpriced Gideon token?
At least he's discovered fire. Between that and the didgeridoo, minotaurs are well on their way to the Bronze Age.
At least he's discovered fire. Between that and the didgeridoo, minotaurs are well on their way to the Bronze Age.
This is the same rationale people who ignore economics re: austerity (Kansa, EU) give.
We know pretty clearly where the line is on Answer cards. The bigger problem has been that the threats (like 4cc Gideon who really needs to eat a ban) are too good and aren't even answerable by good removal spells!
Let's back up there buddy
We are talking about a card game, not macroeconomics. I know the comparison you are trying to make but the difference in consequences does matter to the decision making process (that and the availability of many concurrent and better working models to look towards). Things being too good/bad has more to do with what environment WOTC wants to make (which is fair to be honest since its their game) and less to do with absolute power.
Sending Standard into the shitter has pretty profound consequences for a number of people in the real world.Let's back up there buddy
Things being too good/bad has more to do with what environment WOTC wants to make (which is fair to be honest since its their game) and less to do with absolute power.
We know not to print Mana Leak. There's no good argument for doing it. It enables really strong Tempo decks in Standard and those are probably a close second to combo on the obnoxiousness scale. (ignoring decks that are just not a thing in modern MTG.)
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Infinite Stars
Member
Mana Leak had been in how many Standard seasons without causing issues? It's not an issue card that breaks Standard into a million pieces, so I don't see how Miscalculation is impossibly good in Standard
Honestly, between BFZ being absolutely ass/Standard being an absolutely shitshow for 3 seasons/Them missing a fucking Block Constructed Combo/Having to ban 5+ cards in a year in Standard (Cat and Gideon are a must, I'm betting Heart of Kiran also gets the Axe because it's a shitshow with New Gideon), I'm surprised Development hasn't seen turnover.
Development doesn't even care about Optics at this point, honestly. They (and Design has some part in this, but it's still largely development's fault) fucked up BFZ in every sense of the word and kept their jobs. The Expeditions were literally a hail Mary to try and save the set for perception but even that's not good enough.
Honestly, between BFZ being absolutely ass/Standard being an absolutely shitshow for 3 seasons/Them missing a fucking Block Constructed Combo/Having to ban 5+ cards in a year in Standard (Cat and Gideon are a must, I'm betting Heart of Kiran also gets the Axe because it's a shitshow with New Gideon), I'm surprised Development hasn't seen turnover.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Looking on Gatherer there are actually a very awkward number of white and green minotaurs that can't be in a Naheb deck. Like, you can't put Boros Reckoner in such a deck at all.
Mana Leak can be a miserable card, so I can see why they avoid printing it.
Mana Leak can be a miserable card, so I can see why they avoid printing it.
But it did cause issues last time. Delver was a super hated deck and that plus Snapcaster was probably a bit too good.
Le'ts not pretend the "stakes" aren't orders of magnitude greater in one case compared to the other
Anyway, isn't Miscalculation a worse tempo counter than Mana Leak? Sure the aim is the early game but it still hits fewer things and in those sorts of deck you have less time to use the cycling. This also would not be an environment with Delver, Snapcaster, etc. It is not in every standard environment where a card like Leak would be a disaster. In some of them? Yes? In all of them? No.
All that being said, it is possible WOTC did test Miscalculation and said no go. I would like to see a recent Standard environment that was excellent though before I could put more faith in their development decisions
I will also admit, for purely selfish reasons, I would be a bit disappointed because I want the card in a new frame.Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think the biggest problem Development has here is that they probably really do have the sword of Damocles over their heads, and they have no choice but to bet it all that Amonkhet will somehow fix it. Given what we know about the dev cycle for the set, this doesn't bode well.
Imperfected
Member
They got that one minotaur who can give your permanents to your opponent.
So you combo him with this guy, have no cards in hand and no cards in play, and just sort of be too pathetic for anyone to bother with in multiplayer EDH. The best plan.
So then stop fucking over the answer cards like counterspells. That cycling counter is garbage like rebuke and rebuff are garbageThis is the same rationale people who ignore economics re: austerity (Kansa, EU) give.
We know pretty clearly where the line is on Answer cards. The bigger problem has been that the threats (like 4cc Gideon who really needs to eat a ban) are too good and aren't even answerable by good removal spells!
Last time leak was around I seem to remember it being the standard format everyone loves to reminisce about. And that format had snapcaster and delver in it.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Zedruu is an antelope though just another flavour fail. She should be an elk before a minotaur.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I guess I don't consider counterspells to really be answer cards even though you're right that they work that way.
Imperfected
Member
See? There's an upshot for you: at least they're printing actual "Minotaur" cards instead of deciding they need a new "Tauros" tribal or something.
(Seriously, though, fuck Naga.)
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