What are the chances they print another powerful equipment again because stone forge is a busted tutor that cheats on mana and lets things dodge counters? They are still scarred by that fuck up.
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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
- Status
They are emergency banning a card. There is no way to save face in this situation. Banning Saheeli here is no different. If this was at the official ban announcement then I would agree with you.
I recommend Reid Duke's article series "Level One": http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/level-one/level-one-full-course-2015-10-05
You can skip straight to deckbuilding, but might as well engulf all of it.
LOLOLOL I was wrong today is the literal 1 year anniversary of walking back the OP changes! http://magic.wizards.com/en/article...cement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26
charlequin
Banned
This was one hundred percent the correct decision. Sorry not sorry to the people who saw this announcement and thought this would be a great time to spend a bunch of real money on something that was still gonna get nuked sooner rather than later. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯
Also, to Angry Grimace: when you announce nothing is getting banned, thereby getting your entire fanbase IRLMAD, and then two days later you announce the one most minimal card banning you could've done is happening after all, thereby producing rapturous applause even though there are still issues with your overall management of the format -- that is a decision about optics.
It's a bad idea because it screws up the market and causes problems for playing the format. Note that the EDH committee doesn't really have this anymore, basically for these reasons.
Because the Standard competitive format is a pretty small part of what they're responsible for in the overall business, and Magic's current R&D team has had one of their more productive periods in the game's history over the last 3 or so years, even with an all-format, all-demographic poop disaster like BFZ falling in that window.
Unless you mean "why should I have any confidence in the development team specifically on the topic of Standard specifically," in which case yeah, probably should not. They need to make big structural changes to solve their Standard problem.
I want to emphasize this, both because it's the single best thing the MTGO team has done maybe since I started paying attention to them, and because it's the single best thing they can do to deal with balance issues in Standard overall. If this gets standardized and they find a way to shift around the schedule and put the ban announcement a week after the set hits MTGO (say, maybe launch online on pre-release day for every set) it could dramatically improve the situation when future problems like this arise.
I mean, he should have been -- not in the sense that he deserved to be fired, because Forsythe has been a massive boon to the game over the course of his career at WotC and sacking him over this would have been foolish, but in the sense that observing how seriously they misread this situation and how angry people got should've inspired him (as it apparently did) to reconsider their decision.
I mean you say this jokingly, but it's true! These mechanics are all super fun and great on the cards that aren't broken. This is why they keep making them!
_/¯ Also, to Angry Grimace: when you announce nothing is getting banned, thereby getting your entire fanbase IRLMAD, and then two days later you announce the one most minimal card banning you could've done is happening after all, thereby producing rapturous applause even though there are still issues with your overall management of the format -- that is a decision about optics.
It's a bad idea because it screws up the market and causes problems for playing the format. Note that the EDH committee doesn't really have this anymore, basically for these reasons.
Because the Standard competitive format is a pretty small part of what they're responsible for in the overall business, and Magic's current R&D team has had one of their more productive periods in the game's history over the last 3 or so years, even with an all-format, all-demographic poop disaster like BFZ falling in that window.
Unless you mean "why should I have any confidence in the development team specifically on the topic of Standard specifically," in which case yeah, probably should not. They need to make big structural changes to solve their Standard problem.
I want to emphasize this, both because it's the single best thing the MTGO team has done maybe since I started paying attention to them, and because it's the single best thing they can do to deal with balance issues in Standard overall. If this gets standardized and they find a way to shift around the schedule and put the ban announcement a week after the set hits MTGO (say, maybe launch online on pre-release day for every set) it could dramatically improve the situation when future problems like this arise.
I mean, he should have been -- not in the sense that he deserved to be fired, because Forsythe has been a massive boon to the game over the course of his career at WotC and sacking him over this would have been foolish, but in the sense that observing how seriously they misread this situation and how angry people got should've inspired him (as it apparently did) to reconsider their decision.
I mean you say this jokingly, but it's true! These mechanics are all super fun and great on the cards that aren't broken. This is why they keep making them!
And the powerful equipment wouldn't be bad because it wouldn't be a creature that can be bounced at instant speed the turn after it comes out. Chances of a pushed, living weapon that bounces itself after it dies? Chances are non existent. The swords are as pushed as equipment gets outside of mistakes. (jitte/skull lamp which were last minute changes and skull which was intentionally made to break mystic)
divisionbyzorro
Member
On a different track: Edifice of Authority is one of the most ridiculous Limited cards I've played with in a very very long time.
Imperfected
Member
It's absolutely different, at least to me as a designer.
I can understand how Felidar Guardian got through. At first glance, it looks like a functional reprint of a creature archetype they've printed quite a few times since Restoration Angel, and not even a good enough variation on the theme to warrant much thought. I would guess there are people in this thread right now who even read it that way when the set was first spoiled, because it's quite easy when browsing through a sea of uncommon Limited-filler creatures to just read it as being more of the same. When you have to a ban a creature you like that, you look like you got lazy in testing, which is almost certainly what happened.
I can't understand, on the other hand, how Saheeli or Emrakul would get through in a state requiring a ban. You don't put them on your promotional materials unless you've spent a whole lot of time thinking about, tweaking, and playing with the cards. There can be no question that your eyes were on them, as you are essentially presenting them as the best of your work. When you have to ban that, it makes you look like a fucking moron.
Nah I meant it. The mechanics are great aside from the outliers that give the mechanics, amusingly, bad optics.
StrategyFan
Member
were people not buying new cards?
that's the only "we looked at the data" nonsense that i can imagine making some sort of sense
that's the only "we looked at the data" nonsense that i can imagine making some sort of sense
charlequin
Banned
Yes, but it's far better than not banning it at all, so absent Sunk Cost Fallacy delusions it was still the right decision to make at whatever meeting they made it at this morning.
Also, I suspect the net PR impact of this whole saga overall will be very slightly positive, since a broad audience of people will appreciate the "listened when people told them they were wrong" aspect, while only a very few specific people will be mad at the "you tricked me into buying into Copycat" aspect (and again, really hard for me to honestly feel bad for anyone in that particular boat.)
The cards on the cover of the box are almost always pushed so they can sell packs. If anything those cards will have a higher chance of being banned. It may look bad but it's reality. It doesn't matter anymore since guardian is banned anyhow but those are my thoughts.
charlequin
Banned
While I think their announcement carefully elides the significance of nigh-united pro and casual outrage in forcing their hand, I think the bit about MTGO data is basically accurate: they got huge numbers showing that the level of dominance put up by the deck really was unambiguously worse than even the previous season and that no kind of tech was going to magically hose it.
It doesn't help that amonkhet gave copycat tons of counterspells.
SigmasonicX
Member
I feel like someone should make a post explaining the entire Copycat situation, and then I can link to it in the OP. Anyone up to the task, or will it have to be me?
The post should explain:
* How the combo works
* The cards that should beat it in theory
* How Copycat deals with those cards
* How the deck affects Standard
* The history of times it wasn't banned
* Why it was banned now
And the target audience is people familiar with Magic and Standard, but not necessarily with the current Standard environment or recent sets.
The post should explain:
* How the combo works
* The cards that should beat it in theory
* How Copycat deals with those cards
* How the deck affects Standard
* The history of times it wasn't banned
* Why it was banned now
And the target audience is people familiar with Magic and Standard, but not necessarily with the current Standard environment or recent sets.
Imperfected
Member
Outside of EDH, ban lists mostly get populated with seemingly-innocuous utility spells and enablers. There aren't, and never have been, all that terribly many planeswalkers or big Timmy creatures on the lists.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Looking at a more midrangey version of Mardu vehicles. Dusk//Dawn synergizes really well with vehicles, toolcraft exemplar and pia nalaar. Avacyn is the nuts vs opposing Glorybringers.
I wasn't gonna bring it up, but... lol
I've been hearing about "Copycat" or "Felidar Guardian" being banned in Standard. What is it?
"Copycat" is an affectionate term for a combo deck in Standard that utilized (mainly) two cards: Saheeli Rai, a planeswalker that could make a copy of a creature and give it haste, and Felidar Guardian, a creature that "flickers" (exiling it and returning it to the battlefield) a permanent.
&
Pictured Above: The Combo
Utilizing these two cards resulted in an infinite combo of cats, wherein the Felidar Guardian copies Saheeli Rai, and Saheeli Rai, being reset on loyalty to use its copy ability, makes a copy of another Felidar Guardian. Note that the subsequent Guardians all have haste, meaning that before combat you would have a near insurmountable army that will win you the game.
Okay. What was supposed to take care of this "combo"?
In the metagame, several options were available:
That doesn't sound too bad. How did the Copycat combo deck work around these, though?
Copycat utilized sweeper cards (Radiant Flames et al) and backup counter magic (Dispel, Negate) to protect the combo. At any point as long as the Copycat deck didn't have to tap out to play the combo, you could assume protection was there to backup the combo. Thus only the most aggressive of decks were able to get around it, and even then, not at the best percentage of wins either.
Pictured Above: A "sweeper", a card that can hit a lot of small creatures. Also some counterspells.
So what did this do to Standard as a whole?
Decks were built specifically to take on Copycat and target it as much as metas usually do, but the combo was so hard to disrupt even with aggressive force, only one deck really emerged to take it on with any sort of reliability: Mardu Vehicles. A deck consisting of creatures and planeswalkers that were hard to kill on their own (Scrapheap Scrounger, a crewed Heart of Kiran, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar), it was fast enough to get in to either kill Copycat before it could do what it was intended to or disrupt the combo fast enough to destabilize the deck.
Pictured Above: Cards prevalent in the "Mardu Vehicles" deck.
The problem with this approach is that the format warped around these two decks as a whole. You either were playing the best deck, Copycat, or Mardu Vehicles to try to take out the Copycat deck. A third deck tried to emerge in the format but couldn't compete overall.
Okay okay. I see. What about bannings? Why wasn't it banned yet?
Wizards is notorious at being slow to course-correct when Standard metas become degenerate or stagnant. This time was no different, as they wanted to be sure to collect data and consider all their options before doing a ban.
When Aether Revolt (the set Felidar Guardian came from) was spoiled, players noticed that Felidar Guardian would combo out with Saheeli Rai in the previous set. Development admitted after release that it wasn't seen ahead of time (a very big red flag). Most people assumed a pre-ban as testing before release started to show that the deck was unbeatable. This was the first time Wizards could have banned it, and they did not.
After release, they still needed more time to see if the deck could be beat at tournaments, so their pre-release ban announcement had nothing.
Then Pro Tour Aether Revolt hit, and Saheeli decks running Copycat were high in the meta. Mardu Vehicles eventually ended up winning the tournament (and taking a lot of the Top 8), but only because they were the only aggressive deck to show up the Cat in the format. In fact, if you look at the list of decks at Pro Tour Aether Revolt, you notice that most everyone was playing Mardu Vehicles to combat Copycat specifically. When you have most of the pros on a deck that needs to be there to keep a combo deck down, that's the sign of a bad format.
So weeks pass and the announcement after the Pro Tour was business as usual: Wizards thought that there was a third deck emerging in the format to take care of it (A deck called Temur Tower, using Dynavolt Tower to hit key targets) but it ended up going nowhere. Thus another ban announcement passed with nothing to show for it.
This led to Amonkhet, the next base set that would hopefully have answers to several things people wanted in Standard: graveyard hate, artifact hate, and Copycat hate. Unfortunately for the players, Wizards had only assumed Mardu Vehicles and other decks would be in Standard, not Copycat, so Amonkhet only added more tools to Copycat's deck rather than a damaging piece that would stop the deck cold.
Amonkhet had its pre-release ban announcement come and go, and yet another quiet front was portrayed by Wizards, stating that more data was still needed because of the new Amonkhet cards. Players despaired, knowing that the next ban announcement would be weeks away when it was clear Felidar Guardian had to go.
Wow that's uh, wild. Why is it being banned now?
Amonkhet released early on Magic the Gathering: Online, and in doing so, allowed Wizards to see very quickly how the new cards interacted with the top two decks, Copycat and Mardu Vehicles. What was shown was worse than anyone expected: Mardu Vehicles was being pushed entirely out of the format by the new aggressive hate cards and Copycat only stood to gain, increasing its win margin in just two days.
This led Wizards to finally pull the trigger and ban the card before any more misery could spread. Some think it was too late, others think no matter what it was the right choice, and ultimately, it will lead to a different and hopefully healthy Standard format.
"Copycat" is an affectionate term for a combo deck in Standard that utilized (mainly) two cards: Saheeli Rai, a planeswalker that could make a copy of a creature and give it haste, and Felidar Guardian, a creature that "flickers" (exiling it and returning it to the battlefield) a permanent.
Pictured Above: The Combo
Utilizing these two cards resulted in an infinite combo of cats, wherein the Felidar Guardian copies Saheeli Rai, and Saheeli Rai, being reset on loyalty to use its copy ability, makes a copy of another Felidar Guardian. Note that the subsequent Guardians all have haste, meaning that before combat you would have a near insurmountable army that will win you the game.
Okay. What was supposed to take care of this "combo"?
In the metagame, several options were available:
- Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Authority of the Consuls - Providing the best defense was keeping the cards tapped down so that the combo could not kill you before you lost the game. Doing this would make the Cats exile at the end step, which is what they would do normally.
- Shock - In response to the activation of Saheeli Rai's planeswalker ability, you kill her at low loyalty to stop the combo.
- Walking Ballista - Same idea as Shock. Utilize the counters on Walking Ballista to kill Saheeli first.
- Low to the Ground Aggro decks - Low to the ground meaning fast, hard to counter aggressive style decks.
That doesn't sound too bad. How did the Copycat combo deck work around these, though?
Copycat utilized sweeper cards (Radiant Flames et al) and backup counter magic (Dispel, Negate) to protect the combo. At any point as long as the Copycat deck didn't have to tap out to play the combo, you could assume protection was there to backup the combo. Thus only the most aggressive of decks were able to get around it, and even then, not at the best percentage of wins either.
Pictured Above: A "sweeper", a card that can hit a lot of small creatures. Also some counterspells.
So what did this do to Standard as a whole?
Decks were built specifically to take on Copycat and target it as much as metas usually do, but the combo was so hard to disrupt even with aggressive force, only one deck really emerged to take it on with any sort of reliability: Mardu Vehicles. A deck consisting of creatures and planeswalkers that were hard to kill on their own (Scrapheap Scrounger, a crewed Heart of Kiran, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar), it was fast enough to get in to either kill Copycat before it could do what it was intended to or disrupt the combo fast enough to destabilize the deck.
Pictured Above: Cards prevalent in the "Mardu Vehicles" deck.
The problem with this approach is that the format warped around these two decks as a whole. You either were playing the best deck, Copycat, or Mardu Vehicles to try to take out the Copycat deck. A third deck tried to emerge in the format but couldn't compete overall.
Okay okay. I see. What about bannings? Why wasn't it banned yet?
Wizards is notorious at being slow to course-correct when Standard metas become degenerate or stagnant. This time was no different, as they wanted to be sure to collect data and consider all their options before doing a ban.
When Aether Revolt (the set Felidar Guardian came from) was spoiled, players noticed that Felidar Guardian would combo out with Saheeli Rai in the previous set. Development admitted after release that it wasn't seen ahead of time (a very big red flag). Most people assumed a pre-ban as testing before release started to show that the deck was unbeatable. This was the first time Wizards could have banned it, and they did not.
After release, they still needed more time to see if the deck could be beat at tournaments, so their pre-release ban announcement had nothing.
Then Pro Tour Aether Revolt hit, and Saheeli decks running Copycat were high in the meta. Mardu Vehicles eventually ended up winning the tournament (and taking a lot of the Top 8), but only because they were the only aggressive deck to show up the Cat in the format. In fact, if you look at the list of decks at Pro Tour Aether Revolt, you notice that most everyone was playing Mardu Vehicles to combat Copycat specifically. When you have most of the pros on a deck that needs to be there to keep a combo deck down, that's the sign of a bad format.
So weeks pass and the announcement after the Pro Tour was business as usual: Wizards thought that there was a third deck emerging in the format to take care of it (A deck called Temur Tower, using Dynavolt Tower to hit key targets) but it ended up going nowhere. Thus another ban announcement passed with nothing to show for it.
This led to Amonkhet, the next base set that would hopefully have answers to several things people wanted in Standard: graveyard hate, artifact hate, and Copycat hate. Unfortunately for the players, Wizards had only assumed Mardu Vehicles and other decks would be in Standard, not Copycat, so Amonkhet only added more tools to Copycat's deck rather than a damaging piece that would stop the deck cold.
Amonkhet had its pre-release ban announcement come and go, and yet another quiet front was portrayed by Wizards, stating that more data was still needed because of the new Amonkhet cards. Players despaired, knowing that the next ban announcement would be weeks away when it was clear Felidar Guardian had to go.
Wow that's uh, wild. Why is it being banned now?
Amonkhet released early on Magic the Gathering: Online, and in doing so, allowed Wizards to see very quickly how the new cards interacted with the top two decks, Copycat and Mardu Vehicles. What was shown was worse than anyone expected: Mardu Vehicles was being pushed entirely out of the format by the new aggressive hate cards and Copycat only stood to gain, increasing its win margin in just two days.
This led Wizards to finally pull the trigger and ban the card before any more misery could spread. Some think it was too late, others think no matter what it was the right choice, and ultimately, it will lead to a different and hopefully healthy Standard format.
Just catching up now, this seems like pretty exciting news.
If, as a player, I just decided to start trying to get "serious" (not Pro-Tour, but at least able to compete locally outside of Sealed/Draft) as of the Amonkhet Pre-Release, is this a strong time to start thinking about Standard? Should I be picking up Kaladesh/Aether Revolt fat packs?
If, as a player, I just decided to start trying to get "serious" (not Pro-Tour, but at least able to compete locally outside of Sealed/Draft) as of the Amonkhet Pre-Release, is this a strong time to start thinking about Standard? Should I be picking up Kaladesh/Aether Revolt fat packs?
This is definitely a strong time to think about Standard. They are actively trying to curtail metas that become terrible and banning problem cards that stagnate a format. Meaning as a player who wants to get in and play decks, right now it's going to be a little wild and you could play something sub-par because people are still finding their footing.
This is a great time to be a brewer, like has been posted, going to be the wild wild west in the next tournament. Pretty much any well constructed deck will have a chance at the next few tournaments since there isn't a dominate deck right now. Mardu Vehicles kind of had default, but might not be able to take all the hate that will probably come it's way.
If you just want to build a Tier 1 deck and play with it for the next few months, well, you might wait. Will take a little bit of time for a meta to form and a clear Tier 1/Tier 2 structure to form.
I say build something fun and have a blast. Will probably brew some janky ass deck and find some standard to play, one of the best times to be in the game (unless you just bought CopyCat...)
If you just want to build a Tier 1 deck and play with it for the next few months, well, you might wait. Will take a little bit of time for a meta to form and a clear Tier 1/Tier 2 structure to form.
I say build something fun and have a blast. Will probably brew some janky ass deck and find some standard to play, one of the best times to be in the game (unless you just bought CopyCat...)
Matt Sperling with some thoughts...
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/felidar-guardian-is-banned/
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/felidar-guardian-is-banned/
Oh man, I'm pretty excited by all of this. I've played kitchen table magic off and on for a while (it became a tradition between me and a friend to pick up pre-constructed decks at PAX every year), but talk about Amonkhet got me looking into organized play a bit more... and the AKH pre-release got me really hype about playing in that kind of environment.
I know I'm being a starry eyed newbie here, but it kind of feels like this is one of the best times to get into Magic.
Went 3-0 in $15 Chaos draft tonight. 3rd pack was MM17 and got a Misty Rainforest so that was pretty sweet. I told my buddy that I played in the finals that I was gonna get Conspiracy prize packs. He followed suit after hearing it. We were joking that he was taking my chances at opening a Leovold. Well what do you know? He actually opened it. That MF! Lol
Oh man, they are so bad at this. It's totally the right decision, so better late than never.
awwwwwwwww yeah RW Exert time
Alright. This is one of the things I'm trying to figure out now. Singles is a cheaper way to go, but it's a bit harder for me to get a handle on my options unless I can try putting some pieces together and see what goes.
Maybe I'll just spend some time reviewing standard set lists first.
Imperfected
Member
I think we're going to see all sorts of exciting decks. Some of them might not even run Walking Ballista!
Thrilled at the Felidar ban. I don't play Standard, but I watch it from time to time, and this will make it a thousand times more enjoyable to watch.
We'll see if Heart of Kiran is still oppressive, but at least it's much more feasible to tech against just Mardu Vehicles than it is to tech against both Mardu Vehicles AND Saheeli.
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On the Magic Duels front: the Amonkhet campaign has you play as Neheb through the five trials. There's some nifty art for each of the trials that gives them some personality (the blue trial is a Millennium Puzzle-esque mind maze; the green trial is made up of jungle walkways). After completing the five trials, Neheb
We'll see if Heart of Kiran is still oppressive, but at least it's much more feasible to tech against just Mardu Vehicles than it is to tech against both Mardu Vehicles AND Saheeli.
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On the Magic Duels front: the Amonkhet campaign has you play as Neheb through the five trials. There's some nifty art for each of the trials that gives them some personality (the blue trial is a Millennium Puzzle-esque mind maze; the green trial is made up of jungle walkways). After completing the five trials, Neheb
gets killed by Hazoret, which explains why he's called "the Worthy".
Imperfected
Member
I mean, that seems kind of like overkill for Deem Worthy. You could have just cycled it, Hez.
keeblerdrow
Member
I'm in a weird opposite situation from most people getting hit financially by this late ban. When cat wasn't banned on Monday, I cancelled my customary 1 box per set and cancelled all my preorders, including my $4.5 Glorybringers and a couple Nissas and a few other cards. Now they've all seen the post-prerelease bump and I'm looking at having to reorder them. The Glorybringers are gonna hurt especially.
But I'm also gonna just fuck around with an esper zombies deck.
But I'm also gonna just fuck around with an esper zombies deck.
SigmasonicX
Member
Thanks for the help! I linked this post in the OP at the top, and in the Highlights section.
Could you add images of the cards, though?
After I had just finished putting together UW before the last bans I pretty much said the same. Probably just going to do what I usually do which is only play standard at bigger events (Opens, GPs, sometimes PPTQs) and just borrow them when I do. Not like I'm missing much since the local FNMs are such bad value on top of the already bad value of trying to keep up with standard.
A regular at my shop had Twin and Bloom as his only modern decks when that ban happened. He only plays EDH now lol.
pictures added
FreedomFrisbee
Member
I really don't get the mentality behind throwing in the towel after a ban occurs. Like, why wouldn't a twin player look at that and go 'guess I'm playing RU Delver or something'? Bloom is likewise, amulet is still totally a deck. Pod makes more sense as a back breaker because was a bunch of one ofs. You didn't drop mad cash on the combo, you dropped mad cash on the mana base and that ain't ever going anywhere.
Ultimate_Trainer
Member
God damn I just ordered cards to play against Cat on monday, but Im more glad than mad that wizards killed the cat.
I hope saheeli price plummets so I can pick her up at a steal.
I hope saheeli price plummets so I can pick her up at a steal.
EDH is free and games are always firing all night. If all you care about is playing with magic cards then it's probably the best option at least around here. He didn't care all that much for the competitive scene and probably doesn't want to invest time and money changing decks. I see nothing wrong with it.
Wasn't she already under $10 in worry that she was gonna see a ban? Was pretty cheap already.
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