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[GregLombardi]

In the Reddit thread I see a lot of people talking about being afraid of bans no matter what now.

I mean...yeah. When a broken combo breaks the game / format. This doesn't happen super often, though the only 2 standards I have ever played myself both had it.

How did I choose Kaladesh as the first time I would play standard after 23 years of playing?

Still, I think people are overreacting about bans. Yeah Wizards had a colossal fuck up of epic proportions, but they seem to only have this every like what, 5 years? I don't know.

 

[Ashodin]

They shouldn't be afraid. They will only ban when the meta is stagnant/broken. That's the thing.

 

[OnPoint]

They shouldn't be afraid. They will only ban when the meta is stagnant/broken. That's the thing.

Broken yes. Stagnant, no.

 

[Ashodin]

Broken yes. Stagnant, no.

It's something one would hope.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The deck blew up on MTGO while Mardu got decimated.

Turns out printing like 50000 good counterspells did a number to it.

That was the flimsiest excuse ever.

They had people like Kibler saying they weren't going to go to the PT if Guardian wasn't banned on top of every Pro and most casual tryhards saying "fuck this Standard" before it even started.

 

[Violet_0]

personally, I find the surprise emergency ban hilarious

"oh shit we fucked up, they were right all along, ban the cat BAN THE CAT NOW"

 

[ironmang]

personally, I find the surprise emergency ban hilarious

"oh shit we fucked up, they were right all along, ban the cat BAN THE CAT NOW"

Makes them look incredibly unprofessional. Like what additional data could they have gathered in 2 days? I know some people find it hard to feel bad for anybody who dares play cat combo in these overpriced tournaments but if you're going to buy a high risk deck like that then immediately after a B&R announcement is the time to do it. Just how they handle everything from mtgo to in house testing seems shitty except coverage which is now finally starting to become decent.

 

[traveler]

In the Reddit thread I see a lot of people talking about being afraid of bans no matter what now.

I mean...yeah. When a broken combo breaks the game / format. This doesn't happen super often, though the only 2 standards I have ever played myself both had it.

How did I choose Kaladesh as the first time I would play standard after 23 years of playing?

Still, I think people are overreacting about bans. Yeah Wizards had a colossal fuck up of epic proportions, but they seem to only have this every like what, 5 years? I don't know.

I came back after a long hiatus with Battle for Zendikar. I'm getting the feeling I came in at the end of good standard seasons and we haven't had a great one since. :/

 

[traveler]

And the powerful equipment wouldn't be bad because it wouldn't be a creature that can be bounced at instant speed the turn after it comes out. Chances of a pushed, living weapon that bounces itself after it dies? Chances are non existent. The swords are as pushed as equipment gets outside of mistakes. (jitte/skull lamp which were last minute changes and skull which was intentionally made to break mystic)

Yeah, I doubt they'd repeat those mistakes. I think equipment around the power level of swords is fine. SoWaP isn't back breaking in standard but was a perfectly fine roleplayer in legacy. (Well, before top ban) Complete the cycle with allied colored swords WotC!

Whoops meant to edit not new post.

 

[Tunoku]

Well, the small irrational part of my brain got over the ban; I had the deck sleeved up and was very excited to copy Glorybringers for the next few weeks, but it's not exciting when everyone else is doing it as well. I love that damn Dragon so much, I hope I can find a deck I can afford that plays him. With Saheeli out of the picture, I'll try brewing my Zombies again. The deck can have some insane draws and has access to good disruption and removal from the board.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Thanks for the explanation Ashodin, I'd looked up Felidar Guardian and Saheeli a few times over the last weeks but I hadn't understood the interaction until now, lol.

personally, I find the surprise emergency ban hilarious

"oh shit we fucked up, they were right all along, ban the cat BAN THE CAT NOW"

ha ha, yeah.

 

[ThLunarian]

Well, the small irrational part of my brain got over the ban; I had the deck sleeved up and was very excited to copy Glorybringers for the next few weeks, but it's not exciting when everyone else is doing it as well. I love that damn Dragon so much, I hope I can find a deck I can afford that plays him. With Saheeli out of the picture, I'll try brewing my Zombies again. The deck can have some insane draws and has access to good disruption and removal from the board.

I don't understand. Why would everyone else be copying Glorybringers now, as opposed to before the ban? You could easily play a Glorybringer/Saheeli Ray deck for the next few weeks and never see a mirror match. Just play the same deck you were going to, minus the Guardians, and tweak it a little.

 

[Tunoku]

Sorry, my sentence wasn't clear enough. That comment was not related to Glorybringer in particular but rather the 4c Saheeli deck. More importantly, I think that the deck is completely unplayable by just replacing Guardian with another card. Saheeli is just not goood enough on her own in that shell, Oath of Nissa loses a lot of value, as do a lot of the other cards. You could probably rework it into a more aggressively slanted deck with Cubs and Brawlers or go the Aetherworks Marvel route. But Saheeli's time in Standard is over. At least at the top.

 

[Maledict]

Do we get to hold an "I told you so party" for all of us who said it needed banning when the combo was first released and got shouted at by others who said it wouldn't be that bad? ;-)

 

[Zocano]

Magic's current R&D team has had one of their more productive periods in the game's history over the last 3 or so years, even with an all-format, all-demographic poop disaster like BFZ falling in that window.

What specifically made BFZ such a disaster? I stopped following any magic discussion at origins.

 

[Bandini]

What specifically made BFZ such a disaster? I stopped following any magic discussion at origins.

Too many mechanics that never really came together properly in limited play, Gideon being super OP in constructed.

 

[bigkrev]

WE DID IT FAM!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11846045

Can someone change the OT title to "Worse than Meth"?

 

[Lucario]

On the bright side, now that Saheeli is gone, allied shard midrange is looking good. Did some testing with Naya and Esper, and the cycling lands make a huge difference in consistency. You can just get to 7 lands and stop!

I think I'm liking Naya best so far. Channeler Initiate -> Gideon AoZ -> Glorybringer is exactly what I want to be doing in Standard right now, and it has all of the tools needed to fight vehicles.

Also of note: cycling makes delirium way better, and Ishkanah is a natural counter to the 4/4 fliers that are about to be all over the price. I foresee a lot more copies of Traverse and Ishkanah thrown into whatever lists can support them, turned on by cycling lands and cards like Cast Out.

PS I'm still mad

 

[GoutPatrol]

Well, the small irrational part of my brain got over the ban; I had the deck sleeved up and was very excited to copy Glorybringers for the next few weeks, but it's not exciting when everyone else is doing it as well. I love that damn Dragon so much, I hope I can find a deck I can afford that plays him. With Saheeli out of the picture, I'll try brewing my Zombies again. The deck can have some insane draws and has access to good disruption and removal from the board.

In terms of cost, standard is good now. People complaining about that have quickly forgotten we had a standard that cost the same as most modern decks very recently.

 

[Firemind]

WE DID IT FAM!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11846045

Can someone change the OT title to "Worse than Meth"?

Only $3000? Casual.

 

[bigkrev]

What specifically made BFZ such a disaster? I stopped following any magic discussion at origins.

There are too many to count, but here are some highlights-

1.) Completely missing what people liked about Zendikar/WWK/RoE. The general public LOVED Zendikar/WWK and the adventure world theme. The hardcore crowd LOVED the draft format of RoE, which Wizards considers a mistake (things like 2/2s for 2 are actually unplayable). So for the return, Wizards focuses on the Eldrazi, not the adventure world, and makes the limited boring and terrible, thus making everyone unhappy.

2.) The feel/aesthetics/art of the set is off. It's the worst overall art set since the 90s, and by removing Anihlator and replacing it with a weird exile-processing mechanic, the Eldrazi stopped being scary.

3.) There are too many mechanics, and most of them suck. Devoid is a mechanic that just means something is colorless. Converge feels out of place (though it was the best tournament mechanic of the bunch). Landfall, while too powerful the first time, was neutered to the point of irrelevance this time around.

4.) The overall power level is not distributed very well. Gideon is absurdly overpowered, while most other cards are just too weak.

 

[ironmang]

While BFZ sucked, OGW was one of my favorite limited formats. Sure had a lot of time to play it too since modern was... unappealing. Had my best limited result ever too which probably impacts my opinion: 1st seed in a 350+ person Super Sunday Series sealed top 8... which I then lost in the first round of top 8.

 

[DrArchon]

In terms of cost, standard is good now. People complaining about that have quickly forgotten we had a standard that cost the same as most modern decks very recently.

This. I was shocked to see Gideon AoZ costing ~$20, considering how people talk about him. I remember when damn near every planeswalker that showed up in a competitive deck was ~$20, not just the 4-ofs in tier 1 decks.

 

[Lucario]

some other testing notes:


1: The "5cmc Liliana, -3, reanimate the Archfiend of Ifnir I cycled earlier" line is very real, and will see competitive play. It still gets blown out pretty badly by Unlicensed Disintegration, but JESUS. When they can't answer both ASAP, it's very difficult to overcome that much value.

2: Censor is a great card, to the surprise of pretty much no one.

3: R/U tower control got like six new playables, all of which are great. I still don't know how to feel about it in a format with so many amazing Planeswalkers, but when you're playing everything at instant speed and your opponent is afraid to tap out for Gideon on turn 4 thanks to Censor, it's definitely a consideration. Like, keep in mind, this deck was playing fucking Revolutionary Rebuff before now.

4: New Gideon is playable, but not amazing. I only really liked it as a way to answer vehicles that might be able to bash in later if it doesn't die. The 0 is predictably not that great in Standard, and depending on how the format shapes up, it might just be straight-up irrelevant in a lot of matchups.

An opponent who doesn't care about a 4/4 can just let it tick up all day. Defensive +1s are amazing when paired with a backbreaking ult (Liliana the Last Hope) or a -X that gives you card advantage. Gideon does neither of these things; he just turns into a baloth or gives you Angel's Grace.

Gonna trade every copy I open for Liliana. That said, he's still pretty damn amazing against vehicles if you're running a midrange deck that can take advantage of his indestructible 4/4 mode.

5: Cast Out is low-key the best card in the set.

6: Vizier is straight up unplayable and I have no idea why it's still $7. Like, okay, there were variants of Saheeli combo that ran 20+ creatures, and 16+ ways to change the top card of your deck. That's as good as this card was going to get in Standard, and it still wasn't amazing there.

 

[bigkrev]

Now that Cat is gone, I'm willing to entertain the idea of Temur Tower being a viable deck again

 

[DrArchon]

4: New Gideon is playable, but not amazing. I only really liked it as a way to answer vehicles that might be able to bash in later if it doesn't die. The 0 is predictably not that great in Standard, and depending on how the format shapes up, it might just be straight-up irrelevant in a lot of matchups.

An opponent who doesn't care about a 4/4 can just let it tick up all day. Defensive +1s are amazing when paired with a backbreaking ult (Liliana the Last Hope) or a -X that gives you card advantage. Gideon does neither of these things; he just turns into a baloth or gives you Angel's Grace.

Gonna trade every copy I open for Liliana. That said, he's still pretty damn amazing against vehicles if you're running a midrange deck that can take advantage of his indestructible 4/4 mode.

Any testing the Gideon Ult + Glorious End combo? I can't see it coming up that much, but that's pretty much the only way I see either being used in standard.

Man, I wish Gideon was better. I have a pair of them that I got at the pre-release and I have no idea what to do with them.

 

[Tunoku]

Where did you Vizier, Lucario? I'm not excited about the card, but it seems stronger in some kind of deck with every one-drop for G you can find alongside Cryptolith Rite.

 

[Lucario]

Where did you Vizier, Lucario? I'm not excited about the card, but it seems stronger in some kind of deck with every one-drop for G you can find alongside Cryptolith Rite.

Just in creature-heavy Saheeli. Was trying to next level the planeswalker heavy lists.

I'm skeptical there would be a better home for it in Standard given all the cheap shuffle/draw/card selection in Saheeli, but if Cryptolith RIte is a deck again I'm definitely willing to be wrong about it.

 

[OnPoint]

Saffron Olive broke modern?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-gideon-tribal-modern

Spoiler

No haha but he got great matchups and this is a fun video despite the punt

 

[Lucario]

Saffron Olive broke modern?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-gideon-tribal-modern

Spoiler

No haha but he got great matchups and this is a fun video despite the punt

Oh my god, he's playing the Oath?

Also, the one cheeky copy of Kytheon in the sideboard is amazing.

 

[Tunoku]

Quick Vizier idea off the top of my head:

4 Narnam Renegade
4 Loam Dryad
3 Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Channeler Initiate
4 Vizier of the Menagerie
4 Decimator of the Provinces

4 Cryptoloth Rite
4 Nissa, Steward of Elements
4 Censor

4 Lumbering Falls
4 Botanical Sanctum
13 Forest

¯_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Imperfected]

At long last the Gideon, Ally of Gideons Deck is complete.

 

[DrArchon]

Saffron Olive broke modern?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-gideon-tribal-modern

Spoiler

No haha but he got great matchups and this is a fun video despite the punt

I appreciate the solo Gideon, Champion of Justice in the sideboard. Probably one of the first planeswalkers I ever looked at and actually said out loud "What the fuck are they thinking?"

 

[Glix]

Pro players concerned about the metagame also made their opinions known. So that was additional information. It is a bit complicated to get that information ahead of time. They have a player feedback committee willing to provide info, but is it fair to give that group any advance notice of potential changes? I’d argue it isn’t. So to get that feedback, they’d have to do something like solicit opinions without revealing their own leanings. That’s not a great feedback loop, but they would have gotten feedback that way.

This is a pretty dumb fucking statement.

You can't ask the committee "What would you think if we banned cat?"???

and then tweet "We are asking the feedback committee how they would feel about a cat ban?"

Wow. That was fucking hard. The things people do/say in order to avoid saying "I/We fucked up" is incredilbe. I guess POTUS sets the standard.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It's not a Trump thing. It's a company with shareholders thing.

 

[OnPoint]

I appreciate the solo Gideon, Champion of Justice in the sideboard. Probably one of the first planeswalkers I ever looked at and actually said out loud "What the fuck are they thinking?"

I keep hoping beyond hope that some weird synergy will eventually develop in Modern with a new set and we'll see a run on that card.

I would laugh forever.

 

[DrArchon]

I keep hoping beyond hope that some weird synergy will eventually develop in Modern with a new set and we'll see a run on that card.

I would laugh forever.

Only if they print a card that says "Whenever you put loyalty counters on a planeswalker you control, create that many 1/1 White Solider tokens."

Honestly, I'd actually put Gideon CoJ below Tibalt in the planeswalker rankings. At least Tibaly might do SOMETHING the turn he comes into play. Gideon literally does nothing.

 

[Glix]

It's not a Trump thing. It's a company with shareholders thing.

Ya i know. I just cant help taking shots at that piece of garbage.

 

[Joe Molotov]

It's not a Trump thing. It's a company with shareholders thing.

I dunno man, Trump is elected and they have to ban 4 cards in Standard within the next few months. There's something going on there.

 

[OnPoint]

Only if they print a card that says "Whenever you put loyalty counters on a planeswalker you control, create that many 1/1 White Solider tokens."

Honestly, I'd actually put Gideon CoJ below Tibalt in the planeswalker rankings. At least Tibaly might do SOMETHING the turn he comes into play. Gideon literally does nothing.

I'm right there with you. He's absolute garbage.

But Saffron Olive's video for that card he did a few months back was hilarious.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-bad-gideon-fog-modern

 

[Imperfected]

Champion of Justice is just a strong reminder that you should never go Full Gideon.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

My favorite Against the Odds of all time is still 34 Rhinos, which was an amazing piece of absurdist deck design.

 

[OnPoint]

My favorite Against the Odds of all time is still 34 Rhinos, which was an amazing piece of absurdist deck design.

True story, that was the deck where I fell in love with Saffron as a deckbuilder. He's the mad genius I wish I was.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

True story, that was the deck where I fell in love with Saffron as a deckbuilder. He's the mad genius I wish I was.

I still remember this quote: "When all of your topdecks are Siege Rhino, it's really hard to lose."

 

[charlequin]

I think this is probably Sperling's all-time greatest zing:

 

[kirblar]

I think this is probably Sperling's all-time greatest zing:

I had to unfollow bc of the Dem primary conspiracy nonsense RTs. I have to put up enough of that shit here as is

 

[Simply Sarah]

Only if they print a card that says "Whenever you put loyalty counters on a planeswalker you control, create that many 1/1 White Solider tokens."

Honestly, I'd actually put Gideon CoJ below Tibalt in the planeswalker rankings. At least Tibaly might do SOMETHING the turn he comes into play. Gideon literally does nothing.

I put GCoJ every so slightly above Tibalt because CoJ can tick up to doing something potentially useful in an EDH game using an ability that does nothing rather than using an ability that's a horrible version of Gamble. It's pretty close, though. But "Do nothing" > "Most likely makes my situation worse" for + abilities.

 

[Giant Panda]

I dunno man, Trump is elected and they have to ban 4 cards in Standard within the next few months. There's something going on there.

Trump: "When Wizards sends their cards to Standard, they're not sending their best. They're sending their under-costed Mindslavers on beat-sticks, they're bringing smuggled copters, they're bringing two-card infinite combos, and some, I assume, are balanced cards."

 

[Poodlestrike]

I think this is probably Sperling's all-time greatest zing:

Hey now Hex is aight.

 

[charlequin]

I had to unfollow bc of the Dem primary conspiracy nonsense RTs. I have to put up enough of that shit here as is

I follow and unfollow sperling pretty frequently for political garbage, but I would totally follow an account that only retweeted his Magic articles and him talking shit about MTG stuff/people.

Hey now Hex is aight.

Still a good burn tho.