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[divisionbyzorro]

So one of my biggest gripes about this format is how easy it is to trainwreck. I think the reason people are so attracted to the 5-color deck is that it reduces variance during the draft itself; you're not relying on having the right gold cards opened and passed to you. And if you happen to have that guy next to you, and you're not also doing that, you can easily just get screwed. For all the hype this set is getting for draft, I actually think it's one of the highest variance draft formats we've had in a very long time.

This isn't just my opinion; I was watching Noah Sandler's stream earlier this week (he's one of the guys on the list to replace Wong on Limited Resources), and he was saying similar things. Skill certainly plays a big role (as it always does), but the drafts are horribly difficult to navigate and the games are full of huge haymakers that can happen out of nowhere. He also called it a "high variance" format multiple times on stream, and that seems to bear out from what I see watching him and other streamers, and from my own experience.

It finally occurred to me today while I was playing (and scrubbing out with another trainwreck where things just didn't quite work out for me) that what I really don't like about this format is how so much of it revolves around drafting your manabase as well as the deck, and so many games are decided by who gets their mana and who doesn't. That's already the biggest contributor to variance in Magic, and this format shines a spotlight on it. Honestly, I firmly believe the only reason this format is getting such good reviews is because of how much people didn't like Theros block or M15 - I don't think history will look back at 3xKTK very kindly.

EDIT: Oh! And with the way morph plays in the format too, there's a huge emphasis on going first as well. Let's just make a format where drawing correct mana and winning the die roll have a huge impact on your win percentage!

Spoiler

Yes, I'm salty because I just scrubbed out and my overall win % is significantly lower than it was in Theros or M15. Or any format I like. But I think my complaints are still valid.

 

[Matriox]

Colour pie. The +X/+X until EOT ability is in both green and black. Green's version is a one-shot boost (the Rootwalla ability), while black's is reusable (the 'shade' ability). Deathdealer is black so gets the reusable 'dark magic' version, but Knuckleblade can only get the one-shot 'burst of strength' version.

If Knuckleblade's ability was +X/+0, that could be reusable since that's a red ability.

That makes sense, I was specifically thinking about it on a "Knuckleblade might be OP if it can reuse the ability" level which I was thinking wasn't the case, although Nylea gives boosts that can be used multiple times, but not at that 3 mana cost.

 

[Firemind]

Honestly, I firmly believe the only reason this format is getting such good reviews is because of how much people didn't like Theros block or M15 - I don't think history will look back at 3xKTK very kindly.

3xShards was awesome. It wasn't until Alara Reborn that drafting was getting into a clusterfuck. Thankfull, they aim to not repeat that in the next two sets.

It's about picking up signals, knowing which type of cards you're missing and knowing which cards have decent odds to wheel. I've drafted and won with Jeskai the most, but at some point you have to realize you have to jump ship, because you're getting signals other clans are open. This isn't any different from other limited formats. You just need to pay more attention to your mana base and not jam every card in your three colour deck. Just like Shards basically.

 

[kirblar]

3xShards was awesome. It wasn't until Alara Reborn that drafting was getting into a clusterfuck. Thankfull, they aim to not repeat that in the next two sets.

It's about picking up signals, knowing which type of cards you're missing and knowing which cards have decent odds to wheel. I've drafted and won with Jeskai the most, but at some point you have to realize you have to jump ship, because you're getting signals other clans are open. This isn't any different from other limited formats. You just need to pay more attention to your mana base and not jam every card in your three colour deck. Just like Shards basically.

Shards is a godawful set that got rescued by its expansions. The power level is mostly terrible...except for a handful of bomb uncommons.

Artifacts at common that tap to gain/lose life? WTF.

 

[The Technomancer]

Thanks to one of Maro's blog posts I went back and read the article discussing the Eight Card Ban that killed Affinity back when it was in Standard. Jesus, can you imagine if they had to do something like that these days?

 

[Lucario]

Thanks to one of Maro's blog posts I went back and read the article discussing the Eight Card Ban that killed Affinity back when it was in Standard. Jesus, can you imagine if they had to do something like that these days?

I was ~12 and had just purchased my first Standard deck when it happened. Was pretty fucking disappointed, ended up quitting for years afterwards.

 

[kirblar]

I was 11 and had just purchased my first Standard deck when it happened. Was pretty fucking disappointed, ended up quitting for years afterwards.

Lesson of the 8-card ban: DONT WAIT ON BANNING. Pull the damn band-aid.

And then they went and made the same mistake w/ DRS in Modern.

 

[Lucario]

Lesson of the 8-card ban: DONT WAIT ON BANNING. Pull the damn band-aid.

And then they went and made the same mistake w/ DRS in Modern.

They were also pretty slow to ban Jace and Stoneforge. Legal for a year and a half, oppressive for at least 9 months.

It's kind of bizarre how inconsistent they are with the speed of bans. Intangible Virtue was only dominant for a few months before it got axed in Innistrad Block Constructed. Maybe they deliberate more on expensive cards?

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't follow the competitive scene that much, has Standard ever been as oppressive as Jace/Stoneforge since then? I can't recall anything major

They were also pretty slow to ban Jace and Stoneforge. Legal for a year and a half, oppressive for at least 9 months.

It's kind of bizarre how inconsistent they are with the speed of bans. Intangible Virtue was only dominant for a few months before it got axed in Innistrad Block Constructed. Maybe they deliberate more on expensive cards?

They definitely do. Their concern with bannings is that it pushes people who invested in powerful cards away from the format if their investment suddenly turns out to be useless.

 

[kirblar]

They were also pretty slow to ban Jace and Stoneforge. Legal for a year and a half, oppressive for at least 9 months.

It's kind of bizarre how inconsistent they are with the speed of bans. Intangible Virtue was only dominant for a few months before it got axed in Innistrad Block Constructed. Maybe they deliberate more on expensive cards?

Virtue got banned along with Souls to make sure it didn't run over the PT.

 

[kirblar]

I don't follow the competitive scene that much, has Standard ever been as oppressive as Jace/Stoneforge since then? I can't recall anything major

Last T2 season was the closest since.

 

[Lucario]

I don't follow the competitive scene that much, has Standard ever been as oppressive as Jace/Stoneforge since then? I can't recall anything major

No. B/x Devotion is the closest I can think of.

 

[ultron87]

They were also pretty slow to ban Jace and Stoneforge. Legal for a year and a half, oppressive for at least 9 months.

It's kind of bizarre how inconsistent they are with the speed of bans. Intangible Virtue was only dominant for a few months before it got axed in Innistrad Block Constructed. Maybe they deliberate more on expensive cards?

They also probably don't mind banning stuff in block, since it is played so rarely. No one's FNM gets ruined by a block ban.

 

[Firemind]

Shards is a godawful set that got rescued by its expansions. The power level is mostly terrible...except for a handful of bomb uncommons.

Artifacts at common that tap to gain/lose life? WTF.

Err... how many triple Shards drafts did you do?

Sanctum Gargoyle was a top common in the esper deck. Rebuying Executioner's Capsule is pretty amazing as well as other Sanctum Gargoyles and Tower Gargoyles. All the shard commons were playable except the Grixis one. Kind of the same with KtK, really. (Ponyback Brigade is near unplayable.)

Power level is terrible, really? The removal is much better than in KtK. Branching Bolt, Resounding Thunder, Executioner's Capsule, Bone Splinters, Magma Spray, Oblivion Ring at common. You'll be lucky if your Rhox War Monks and Woolly Thoctars live to see the day. There's really only one 'bomb' uncommon and that is Necrogenesis.

If anything, the power level in KtK is wack. Highspire Mantis is uncommon (Assault Zeppelid is common). Icefeather Aven is uncommon (Echo Tracer is common). Suspension Field is uncommon (Journey into Nowhere is common). Swarm of Bloodflies vs. Scavenger Drake in a set with devour.

tl;dr This is probably the most ridiculous thing you said in this thread. :lol

 

[Lucario]

(Ponyback Brigade is near unplayable.)

uhhhhh

They also probably don't mind banning stuff in block, since it is played so rarely. No one's FNM gets ruined by a block ban.

This also makes sense. I didn't really mind much when my 15tix token deck got banned out of existence.

 

[Arksy]

It's interesting, the things you guys say are weird about this set I just thought were normal parts of the game. I didn't realise this set was considered really interesting and was garnering higher than usual interest.

 

[bigkrev]

I was ~12 and had just purchased my first Standard deck when it happened. Was pretty fucking disappointed, ended up quitting for years afterwards.

Here's the crazy part to think about today- here is a sample Ravager Affinity list (Kai Budde at GP Brussels 2004)


4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault Of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid

4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Welding Jar
4 Skullclamp
4 Thoughtcast
2 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Chromatic Sphere

Ravagers were 20 dollars, Skullclamps were 5 dollar bills... but everything else in the deck was cheap and readily available. You could build this deck for well under 200 dollars, probably closer to 150.

When was the last time you remember a Tier 1 deck in standard that was that cheap (not called mono-red?)

 

[The Technomancer]

It's interesting, the things you guys say are weird about this set I just thought were normal parts of the game. I didn't realise this set was considered really interesting and was garnering higher than usual interest.

Well, every set is interesting like this in its own ways. Although Khans is a bit more interesting than usual because of the emphasis on three color combinations which always carries a lot of baggage.

What are you thinking of the game so far by the way?

 

[WanderingWind]

Huh. Where the hell have you been

I was banned for a bit, then I sort of just didn't have a reason to post anything here.

Khans is great, in part, because it's coming on the heels of my absolute least favorite block since returning. It does everything. It's powerful, has chase rares, the flavor is on point and the limited environment is more than just battleship Magic. Delve and things like Jeskai Ascendency have brought actual spellcasting outside of burn back to standard, so that's really sweet.

It is fun to see how people are freaking out over a spell that may be on par with some of the recent creatures though.

Plus, goddamn Mantis Riders. MANTIS RIDERS.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

Rabblemaster should hold for a little while longer. I don't think it'll go up though.

Courser is probably safe to unload. I don't see it increasing after the Pro Tour.

I'm personally holding my Doomwake Giants. I expect them to go up after the Pro Tour. They also keep selling out at Starcity (it's happened 3 times in the past week), which to me is an indicator that they'll go up again.

Eidolon, to me, seems like it could actually go up because it hurts Jeskai Ascendancy so badly. This one is more of a guess than the others in my mind, though.

Thanks! I'm likely going to an FNM tonight (first time), so I'll bring my Courser and Rabbler and see what happens I'd love to actually use the Eidolons, but I play so much multiplayer that it just doesn't make sense for me... I'll probably sit on 'em for a bit.

PS: I've tried some preliminary searches and i might just be blanking, but how can we see the PT Honolulu coverage? It starts today, right?

 

[ultron87]

PT should be here in 40 minutes: http://www.twitch.tv/magic

 

["God's Beard!"]

We have the most skill-testing draft format in years and you guys start blaming variance and power levels for your poor decisions?

Dead drop and Ponyback brigade, two of the best cards you can expect to see in any given draft are bad? You guys make fun of my opinions on the draft when I'm consistently putting up results, but its really hard to take you guys seriously with ideas like that.

Don't blame variance when it's a complicated format less than a month old. It really makes you seem desperate. Knowing when to take two colors or four colors, knowing when to take land when it means signalling your colors to the people around you, this format is hard. Even I make some hard choices when I'm trying to force decks in this format.

People are too used to drafts like M15 that hold their hands and let them think they're good players, so now they want to complain because they can't read down the pick order Frank Karsten gave them and win drafts against the high schoolers that show up to their FNMs. You can actually make bad decks now, Khans doesnt care about the guard rails at the edge of the cliff. If you want to drive off, that's your problem.

I'm not saying the best player always wins, because it's magic and there's variance and that's fine. But making hard choices in the draft portion is way more important than it used to be. At least play for a few weeks before getting dismissive.

 

[kirblar]

Err... how many triple Shards drafts did you do?

Sanctum Gargoyle was a top common in the esper deck. Rebuying Executioner's Capsule is pretty amazing as well as other Sanctum Gargoyles and Tower Gargoyles. All the shard commons were playable except the Grixis one. Kind of the same with KtK, really. (Ponyback Brigade is near unplayable.)

Power level is terrible, really? The removal is much better than in KtK. Branching Bolt, Resounding Thunder, Executioner's Capsule, Bone Splinters, Magma Spray, Oblivion Ring at common. You'll be lucky if your Rhox War Monks and Woolly Thoctars live to see the day. There's really only one 'bomb' uncommon and that is Necrogenesis.

If anything, the power level in KtK is wack. Highspire Mantis is uncommon (Assault Zeppelid is common). Icefeather Aven is uncommon (Echo Tracer is common). Suspension Field is uncommon (Journey into Nowhere is common). Swarm of Bloodflies vs. Scavenger Drake in a set with devour.

tl;dr This is probably the most ridiculous thing you said in this thread. :lol

The best limited comon in the set was a 1/1 w/ Exalted. (Until Shards/Conflux/Reborn)

The manafixing was godawful (and they repeated the mistake of the Obelisks w/ the Banners, imo- 3cc is too late.) This made cards like Wooly Thoctar and Tower Drake a problem- they were insane if you lucked out and cast them on curve....but if you didn't they would just rot in your hand, useless.

The shard mechanics didn't play well with each other, and the silo'd design showed. Esper was just a pile of artifacts. Naya had a bunch of durdly cards that disincentivized attacking. Unearth was fine, as was Devour, but neither really had enablers to push the mechanics hard, nor did they have synergy with other mechanics. Exalted was just an insanely powerful aggro mechanic that was better than a mile than all the rest and made otherwise useless critters playable.

The power level of commons/uncommons in the set was schizophrenic. Alongside all sorts of insane spells like Branching Bolt you had Ivory/Ebony Cup - two cards that should never ever be at common because they're 10000% unplayable. Yes, the removal was better, but it was leagues, leagues better than most of the other cards in the set. You're pointing out it was "better" - but it actually made the set play worse than it already was.

 

[Firemind]

GB finally snaps. :lol

fyi i'm winning/splitting 8-4 drafts constantly. ponyback is shit lol. dead drop is fine.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

PT should be here in 40 minutes: http://www.twitch.tv/magic

Awesome, thanks. I was honestly lost, lol. I feel like they could make it more clear.. Like, when I go to magic.com, why isn't there a link right to their big tournament right on the page?

After doing a bit more of a dig, it's a full 4 clicks with some dubious mouse-overs to get there from the landing page. Anyway, just interesting

 

[WanderingWind]

Awesome, thanks. I was honestly lost, lol. I feel like they could make it more clear.. Like, when I go to magic.com, why isn't there a link right to their big tournament right on the page?

After doing a bit more of a dig, it's a full 4 clicks with some dubious mouse-overs to get there from the landing page. Anyway, just interesting

WotC is still learning how to internet.

 

["God's Beard!"]

GB finally snaps. :lol

fyi i'm winning/splitting 8-4 drafts constantly. ponyback is shit lol. dead drop is fine.

Ponyback is only shit because it's not an izzet card.

In a slow format that has a lot of trades its really easy to get behind. With similar decks like abzan mirrors there's a huge snowball effect. Any creature that has the potential to trade with two creatures is a huge deal. Sure you'd rather be playing better colors but if you're already in Mardu that's one of the best commons you can get.

The reason why ponyback is a good card is one of the reasons I'd rather be playing tempo. 1 for 1 removal and trading isn't consistent enough to win games anymore. I want to win on mana advantage because curves are relatively predictable.

 

[The Technomancer]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133776443]

Don't blame variance when it's a complicated format less than a month old. It really makes you seem desperate. Knowing when to take two colors or four colors, knowing when to take land when it means signalling your colors to the people around you, this format is hard. Even I make some hard choices when I'm trying to force decks in this format.
[/QUOTE]

I've never quite understood signaling beyond "pay attention to what colors you're getting passed a lot of". In this case, how would taking any one of the dual lands signal to other people what you're in in an 8 man pod? The people after you didn't know the land was in the pack and the people who passed it to you don't know which of the players after them was the one who picked it up by the time it circles back to them

 

[Lucario]

If I can get a foil german Dig Through Time for 40 bucks, should I bite?

 

[Matriox]

If I can get a foil german Dig Through Time for 40 bucks, should I bite?

Dig Through Time was one of the Sultai prerelease promos, although I'm not sure if making it German should double the price, currently I'm showing foil Digs at around $25.

 

[kirblar]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133779086]Ponyback is only shit because it's not an izzet card.

In a slow format that has a lot of trades its really easy to get behind. With similar decks like abzan mirrors there's a huge snowball effect. Any creature that has the potential to trade with two creatures is a huge deal. Sure you'd rather be playing better colors but if you're already in Mardu that's one of the best commons you can get.

The reason why ponyback is a good card is one of the reasons I'd rather be playing tempo. 1 for 1 removal and trading isn't consistent enough to win games anymore. I want to win on mana advantage because curves are relatively predictable.[/QUOTE]
Ari just posted that he thinks Sealed decks should be 19 lands or 18 lands + a banner since hitting 5 mana is so critical.

 

[Lucario]

Dig Through Time was one of the Sultai prerelease promos, although I'm not sure if making it German should double the price, currently I'm showing foil Digs at around $25.

Ah, didn't know it was a prerelease promo. Those were printed in every language, right? I think I'll hold off until I can find one of those in Korean, thanks.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

I've never quite understood signaling beyond "pay attention to what colors you're getting passed a lot of". In this case, how would taking any one of the dual lands signal to other people what you're in in an 8 man pod? The people after you didn't know the land was in the pack and the people who passed it to you don't know which of the players after them was the one who picked it up by the time it circles back to them

I had the same thought / question. I haven't done a lot of drafting, but I kind of like having to draft lands.

 

[Lucario]

Ari just posted that he thinks Sealed decks should be 19 lands or 18 lands + a banner since hitting 5 mana is so critical.

My prerelease deck (abzan) was 18 lands with no banner. It definitely felt like too few, and I went up to 19 after a few rounds.

 

[kirblar]

I had the same thought / question. I haven't done a lot of drafting, but I kind of like having to draft lands.

The problem with the lands isn't so much that you have to draft them- but that there aren't enough of them.

 

[Matriox]

Ah, didn't know it was a prerelease promo. Those were printed in every language, right? I think I'll hold off until I can find one of those in Korean, thanks.

I actually don't know the answer to this question, I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in thinking $40 was a bit high, but I genuinely don't know.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I've never quite understood signaling beyond "pay attention to what colors you're getting passed a lot of". In this case, how would taking any one of the dual lands signal to other people what you're in in an 8 man pod? The people after you didn't know the land was in the pack and the people who passed it to you don't know which of the players after them was the one who picked it up by the time it circles back to them

Let's say you're playing abzan. Pack two comes around and you have no fixing but you have a bunch of solid duders. You take a bw tapland but pass a few solid abzan cards. Now the guy that saw and passed you a bunch of abzan cards just got passed your abzan cards and thinks its open since you're prioritizing fixing. Now you might get cut from the good cards in pack three.

This sort of thing has happened a couple times in my drafts. Since its a new format and people still aren't quite sure how much and how early of everything to take, signals can get a little muddy. I think that translates into an awkward experience for some players that they misread as variance.

 

[Arksy]

Well, every set is interesting like this in its own ways. Although Khans is a bit more interesting than usual because of the emphasis on three color combinations which always carries a lot of baggage.

What are you thinking of the game so far by the way?

Well I've only been to FNM drafting so far and I absolutely love it. From what I can tell so far MTG is a great game with a good balance between skill and luck. One of the guys I played against today, who is clearly far more experienced than I am had to mulligan down to a four card start...and he then proceeded to kick my backside with a well placed barrage of boulders (deals one damage to each creature, with a ferocious of no one can block this turn).

I want to eventually play standard, but I'll admit that I'm a little scared of the format so far...I don't want to be that player who goes to elitistjerksmtgedition.com or equivalent and downloads the best card lists, proceeds to buy them and then win off the skill of better players. I told this to my friend and he basically said that everyone does it and it's the only real way to be viable, I don't really believe him though. The game would get seriously tedious if everyone had the same deck.

For the moment though I'm just going to stick to drafting to learn the game and see what's around...I'll get into standard eventually but I have a long way to go for that.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133780562]Let's say you're playing abzan. Pack two comes around and you have no fixing but you have a bunch of solid duders. You take a bw tapland but pass a few solid abzan cards. Now the guy that saw and passed you a bunch of abzan cards just got passed your abzan cards and thinks its open since you're prioritizing fixing. Now you might get cut from the good cards in pack three.

This sort of thing has happened a couple times in my drafts. Since its a new format and people still aren't quite sure how much and how early of everything to take, signals can get a little muddy. I think that translates into an awkward experience for some players that they misread as variance.[/QUOTE]

When you say that this has happened, do you / can you know for sure? Not trying to be flippant, just curious.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133776443]At least play for a few weeks before getting dismissive.[/QUOTE]

I just have some fundamental problems with the design philosophy of this set. I believe that it puts extra emphasis on the parts of the game that are already high variance (mana development and turn order) and I don't think that's a good thing. I think the intent behind putting morph in the set was sound (by giving you things to do even when your mana isn't perfect), as was the decision to make 5-mana the flashpoint, but in practice that just puts extra emphasis on the opening die roll.

I believe that's why we're seeing the best success with Jeskai - precisely because you aren't playing morphs. In fact, my best decks don't have many morphs and do their best to not care about that critical turn 5. That's why cards like Highspire Mantis and Jeskai Windscout are so damn good - they start off relevant and start beating down without any additional mana investment.

My record with Jeskai (matches): 10-2
My record with not-Jeskai: Embarassingly low.

Spoiler

And for the record, I don't think Ponyback Brigade is bad if you're playing the Trumpet Blast deck. It's awful if you aren't playing that deck. I do think Dead Drop is bad in just about any deck.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133780562]Let's say you're playing abzan. Pack two comes around and you have no fixing but you have a bunch of solid duders. You take a bw tapland but pass a few solid abzan cards. Now the guy that saw and passed you a bunch of abzan cards just got passed your abzan cards and thinks its open since you're prioritizing fixing. Now you might get cut from the good cards in pack three.

This sort of thing has happened a couple times in my drafts. Since its a new format and people still aren't quite sure how much and how early of everything to take, signals can get a little muddy. I think that translates into an awkward experience for some players that they misread as variance.[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, variance is everything that's out of your control. This includes the experience level of the player to your right/left. When the software puts me smack dab in-between two newbies who don't know how to read signals and jump around all draft, that's variance. I actually have a theory that this set gets easier to navigate during the draft portion as the skill level of the players in the draft goes up.

 

[Kacar]

Hype for the PT, lets gooooo.

 

[kirblar]

I just have some fundamental problems with the design philosophy of this set. I believe that it puts extra emphasis on the parts of the game that are already high variance (mana development and turn order) and I don't think that's a good thing. I think the intent behind putting morph in the set was sound (by giving you things to do even when your mana isn't perfect), as was the decision to make 5-mana the flashpoint, but in practice that just puts extra emphasis on the opening die roll.

I believe that's why we're seeing the best success with Jeskai - precisely because you aren't playing morphs. In fact, my best decks don't have many morphs and do their best to not care about that critical turn 5. That's why cards like Highspire Mantis and Jeskai Windscout are so damn good - they start off relevant and start beating down without any additional mana investment.

My record with Jeskai (matches): 10-2
My record with not-Jeskai: Embarassingly low.

Spoiler

And for the record, I don't think Ponyback Brigade is bad if you're playing the Trumpet Blast deck. It's awful if you aren't playing that deck. I do think Dead Drop is bad in just about any deck.

This is why I like the set's design- almost all of the cards are good cards, but their contextual value changes in a dramatic way depending on what your deck is trying to do, and not in the awful way that Scars had cards going from "unplayable" to "1st pick" depending on what you or your opponent was doing.

 

[Yeef]

I want to eventually play standard, but I'll admit that I'm a little scared of the format so far...I don't want to be that player who goes to elitistjerksmtgedition.com or equivalent and downloads the best card lists, proceeds to buy them and then win off the skill of better players. I told this to my friend and he basically said that everyone does it and it's the only real way to be viable, I don't really believe him though. The game would get seriously tedious if everyone had the same deck.

Lots of people do 'netdeck' but there's nothing wrong with that. Actually playing a deck well goes beyond just having a good deck. Knowing what to play and when is very important.

The other thing to keep in mind, certain cards are "pushed," meaning, purposely designed to be powerful in constructed. Even if you're making your own deck from scratch, there's a good chance, because of pushed cards, of it looking a lot like something that's already floating around out there.

 

[Firemind]

The best limited comon in the set was a 1/1 w/ Exalted. (Until Shards/Conflux/Reborn)

wat

Exalted was good, but Bant certainly did not overpower the other shards.

he manafixing was godawful (and they repeated the mistake of the Obelisks w/ the Banners, imo- 3cc is too late.) This made cards like Wooly Thoctar and Tower Drake a problem- they were insane if you lucked out and cast them on curve....but if you didn't they would just rot in your hand, useless.

The panorama lands fixed three colours. I mean, yeah, the odds of playing war monk or thoctar on turn three is unlikely, but turn four is not that uncommon. Then there's a mana creature at common that taps for three mana, while in KtK there's mystic at rare.

The shard mechanics didn't play well with each other, and the silo'd design showed. Esper was just a pile of artifacts. Naya had a bunch of durdly cards that disincentivized attacking. Unearth was fine, as was Devour, but neither really had enablers to push the mechanics hard, nor did they have synergy with other mechanics.

Unearth works with Devour. It wasn't uncommon to see them together in a deck, since a lot of playable unearth and devour cards were mono colour.

I won drafts with synergy in mind. For example, the U/B unearth deck with Corpse Connoisseur as the engine. Sometimes I didn't even need a third colour or it was a very light splash. Same with Naya (splash red or white) and Bant (splash white or blue). Basically, it's the same with KtK. Don't take cards of equal colour and expect to do well unless you pick nonbasics highly. The advantage of KtK is you can play a bunch of morphs, but in my experience you're going to lose if you can't unmorph them.

The power level of commons/uncommons in the set was schizophrenic. Alongside all sorts of insane spells like Branching Bolt you had Ivory/Ebony Cup - two cards that should never ever be at common because they're 10000% unplayable. Yes, the removal was better, but it was leagues, leagues better than most of the other cards in the set. You're pointing out it was "better" - but it actually made the set play worse than it already was.

KtK, like every other set, has a bunch of unplayable commons and uncommons, a lot of them being enchantments, healing salves and lens of clarity. What's your point?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Standard and draft are a little bit different mindsets. Draft has a lot of thinking about signals and the way games play out. You want to break tempo and swap sides with your opponent while trying to figure out what's in their deck from cards you saw in the draft.

Standard is more about predicting a larger field and maximizing percentages. So decks are generally really similar but have one or two changes between players based on their ideas.

 

[The Technomancer]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133783310]Standard and draft are a little bit different mindsets. Draft has a lot of thinking about signals and the way games play out. You want to break tempo and swap sides with your opponent while trying to figure out what's in their deck from cards you saw in the draft.

Standard is more about predicting a larger field and maximizing percentages. So decks are generally really similar but have one or two changes between players based on their ideas.[/QUOTE]

And this is why I much prefer draft.

Well, the main reason why I prefer draft is because Magic is fascinating to me as an exercise in extremely intricate systems, and because Limited forces a higher percentage of diverse cards into being played the number of different interactions skyrockets compared to the more traditional constructed formats. Limited is the format where its most likely that in three games you'll never see the same board state twice, and it basically guarantees that no two decks will be running more than, hell, maybe 25% of the same (nonbasic) cards

 

[Kacar]

Dat glare.

 

[ThLunarian]

What round does Standard start?

 

[Firemind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";133779086]Ponyback is only shit because it's not an izzet card.

In a slow format that has a lot of trades its really easy to get behind. With similar decks like abzan mirrors there's a huge snowball effect. Any creature that has the potential to trade with two creatures is a huge deal. Sure you'd rather be playing better colors but if you're already in Mardu that's one of the best commons you can get.

The reason why ponyback is a good card is one of the reasons I'd rather be playing tempo. 1 for 1 removal and trading isn't consistent enough to win games anymore. I want to win on mana advantage because curves are relatively predictable.[/QUOTE]
You pay 5 mana to unmorph ponyback and it trades with their morph. Then what? The 3 1/1 tokens can't fight with any morph with five mana open. So they're chump blocking or triggering raid or in the best scenario, you can attack through with trumpet blast. That scenario is unreliable imo, since trumpet blast does nothing on defence. When you're behind, cards like trumpet blast and threaten don't do a lot.

 

[Kacar]

What round does Standard start?

4, so around 7 Eastern i would think.