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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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F

Firemind

Member
No creature from Prophecy based on saccing lands is as bad as

Image.ashx
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U

ultron87

Member
I think the better way to do that is to back draft a normal cube where you're trying to make the worst possible pool that you then give to someone else.
 
P

platypotamus

Member
I didn't know decompilers these days were capable of restoring the original variable/function names in decompiled code. I thought all of that stuff got squashed during the compiling process for optimization/obfuscation reasons.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
platypotamus said:
I didn't know decompilers these days were capable of restoring the original variable/function names in decompiled code. I thought all of that stuff got squashed during the compiling process for optimization/obfuscation reasons.
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It only gets suppressed if you deliberately compile it that way. Generally you have to add an obfuscator to your compile process if you don't want it decompiled. You often won't do that; it helps the application throw meaningful errors and make meaningful entries in log files if it's not obfuscated.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
divisionbyzorro said:
2) If the shuffler was broken, WotC would never admit it and would absolutely vehemently deny it.
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Yeah, but they wouldn't deny it by writing out a long, in-depth explanation of the correct way to implement it. Nothing in that described algorithm is actually hard to program; the hard part is actually having the knowledge to know what to do. If Worth can fire off an explanation like that of how to correctly randomize a deck I'm confident that's what they're actually doing.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
charlequin said:
Yeah, but they wouldn't deny it by writing out a long, in-depth explanation of the correct way to implement it. Nothing in that described algorithm is actually hard to program; the hard part is actually having the knowledge to know what to do. If Worth can fire off an explanation like that of how to correctly randomize a deck I'm confident that's what they're actually doing.
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He just quoted a forum post from a few years ago. The entire thing has been rewritten so many times at this point...

Regardless, like I said, I don't think it matters. Either way, it will be working now.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
Clipping from PV's Worlds report

After semi-settling on decks, we went to the event to buy the cards we were missing, since we were informed there would be no dealers during Worlds. We went to two dealers and bought some cards from each, and were ready to leave when Tom Martell spots one of the dealers we had just bought cards from talking to Jeremy Dezani. Apparently, said person was reading to Dezani from a list that included every card we had bought, as well as cards that previous Worlds competitors (e.g. Sam Black) had bought earlier in the day.

Once we realized what was happening, we were furious. In a field of only 24 players where everyone is pretty good, there are very few edges to be gained. To have information of what cards other teams of competitors are playing is an insane advantage, because each team is such a large portion of the field. The way I see it, there is an implied agreement between players and dealers, especially for an event of this magnitude—if I'm buying something from you at an event, you're not going to go around telling everyone. You're especially not going to premeditate having a list of everything I buy, so then you can tell my direct competitor and his team just because of national pride.

We felt like it was a breach of our trust and, though not necessarily illegal, highly frowned upon. We expressed our concern to the TO and to Wizards officials that this was not OK, and they said they would investigate. We decided it would be fair to tell the other Worlds competitors that Dezani knew what they were playing, which prompted the same reaction from basically everyone we talked to. Chapin, in particular, seemed especially livid considering he had placed a big online order with the same store.

My personal opinion is that what happened was strongly against the spirit of this competition. When confronted about it, Dezani denied having any knowledge of any cards whatsoever. Later on, his story was adapted to, “I was told of a couple cards, but I never asked for this information, the dealer just started telling me randomly, and after he listed some of the cards Shahar and Martell had bought he was told to stop because this wasn't OK.” For our part, we never saw a third person and we never heard anyone telling the dealer to stop listing cards, and we also listened to him getting a list of cards Sam Black had bought. In the end, there was nothing we could do about that particular thing, so we had to just let it go. We can only hope this particular behavior is not repeated for next Worlds Championship (and for any tournament, really, though Worlds being only 24 players really magnifies the issue).
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Real Scummy
 
Y

Yeef

Member
That's pretty shitty. Ideally, vendors wouldn't do that sort of thing, but if it becomes commonplace, then a tactic might be to buy cards you don't plan on using along with ones you do, as crappy as that might be.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
kirblar said:
Looks like the MM2 announcement is coming, yeah.
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Are you willing to avatar bet on it being MM2? =D

I kind of think it will be that too, but I'm wondering if they'll actually tell us any of the cards that are going to be in it.

FYI I don't consider what Dezani did to be cheating at all in any way. The only thing he did wrong was get caught. Everyone else is dumb for allowing their card lists to be accessible to their opponents. Gotta think it through when there's money on the line.

Also, I hadn't seen this:

R5PHvyT.jpg


Check the bottom of the list: http://magic.wizards.com/en/protour/frf/invitations
 
K

kirblar

Member
Marco Carvalho was caught with a Hornet Queen under his playmat. (@megafone on twitter/mtgo) - apparently finally got DQ'd after the initial judge didn't do it.

re: Dezani - It's not cheating, it's just supremely scummy.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
kirblar said:
Marco Carvalho was caught with a Hornet Queen under his playmat. (@megafone on twitter/mtgo) - apparently finally got DQ'd after the initial judge didn't do it.

re: Dezani - It's not cheating, it's just supremely scummy.
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I don't agree at all. Its just good recon. Don't buy your cards from the same vendor the day of if you don't want people to figure out what you're playing.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I don't agree at all. Its just good recon. Don't buy your cards from the same vendor the day of if you don't want people to figure out what you're playing.
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There have been real card availability issues as well on top of this - I suspect we won't be seeing another Worlds held there again.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
kirblar said:
There have been real card availability issues as well on top of this - I suspect we won't be seeing another Worlds held there again.
Click to expand...

The line between fair and unfair according to the MTG community is completely arbitrary. Professional sports team have entire teams of scouts.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
GIANT punt in the Indonesia-Japan match- guy has a Hero of Iroas with 1 counter and Ordeal of Thassa, against opponents Heir of the Wilds. He goes to play a second Ordeal on the Hero, and the opponent Bile Blights it in response to the heroic trigger. Indonesian player then God's Willings for Black on the Hero. Had he chosen Green, it still would have survived the Bile Blight, and he could have attacked safe from the Heir, and drawn 4 cards. Instead, he sends his guy in and trades- and draws and Aqueos Form and 2 more Ordeals, which would have basically been lethal.
 
Y

Yeef

Member
bigkrev said:
GIANT punt in the Indonesia-Japan match- guy has a Hero of Iroas with 1 counter and Ordeal of Thassa, against opponents Heir of the Wilds. He goes to play a second Ordeal on the Hero, and the opponent Bile Blights it in response to the heroic trigger. Indonesian player then God's Willings for Black on the Hero. Had he chosen Green, it still would have survived the Bile Blight, and he could have attacked safe from the Heir, and drawn 4 cards. Instead, he sends his guy in and trades- and draws and Aqueos Form and 2 more Ordeals, which would have basically been lethal.
Click to expand...
That game was really annoying me, because the display had the Indonesian guy up 1 life higher than he should've been the whole time; he cracked a flooded strand turn 1 that was never reflected on the display.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
I'm more than a little salty right now. I just lost to the Kiki-Conscripts combo in cube. I didn't even know he had Conscripts in his deck, but I had seen Kiki-Jiki in a previous game. I played a Gilded Lotus on my turn; he had just enough mana to steal my Lotus and play the Kiki-Jiki with it.

Ugh.

I'm going to be honest - I thought it was kinda cool at first that they put the various Kiki/Twin combos in the cube, but after playing it myself and after having it done against me, I think it actively makes the cube worse. The first time you see it, it's kinda novel. Every time after that, it's just cheap. I suppose it's just yet another combo that loses to a removal spell, so maybe I'm overreacting, but it feels out of place for some reason.
 
K

kirblar

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
I'm more than a little salty right now. I just lost to the Kiki-Conscripts combo in cube. I didn't even know he had Conscripts in his deck, but I had seen Kiki-Jiki in a previous game. I played a Gilded Lotus on my turn; he had just enough mana to steal my Lotus and play the Kiki-Jiki with it.

Ugh.

I'm going to be honest - I thought it was kinda cool at first that they put the various Kiki/Twin combos in the cube, but after playing it myself and after having it done against me, I think it actively makes the cube worse. The first time you see it, it's kinda novel. Every time after that, it's just cheap. I suppose it's just yet another combo that loses to a removal spell, so maybe I'm overreacting, but it feels out of place for some reason.
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Kiki/Twin are horrible for the game.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
kirblar said:
Kiki/Twin are horrible for the game.
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What I dislike about it in this cube particularly is how it can instantly win the game from an otherwise unwinnable position. Theoretically, it's just as easily disruptable as, say T1 Entomb T2 Reanimate on Griselbrand, but Griz-daddy doesn't necessarily auto win the game if you're super far behind. It's slightly easier to disrupt I suppose too, since you'll have more mana and will have looked for/saved your answers (if you know it's coming), but you don't need to nut draw to "just win" with Kiki-Jiki.

In Modern, I'm not terribly fussed about it. It does warp deck construction, but it has never been an oppressive force in the metagame after the initial flurry of banning.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
kirblar said:
I'm really glad I don't have to interact with you in a real game of magic. :(

Carvalho appears to be the source of the "Fling out of the SB!" problem I recall hearing about on the floor of PT: Amsterdam.
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Oh come on. Don't be like that. :rolleyes:

I'm talking about professionals with money on the line - this is literally how they make money and put food on the table.
 
F

Firemind

Member
How is entomb reanimate Griselbrand just as easily disruptable as Kiki? :lol Even if your opponent has removal you're going to draw seven or fourteen cards so whatever. I think turn two Griselbrand or turn three Emrakul is even more unfair, since it just leads to concessions as more often than not you can't do anything about it if you're tapped out, as opposed to mid to late game. I drafted both the Griselbrand and Emrakul deck and mono red just concedes if you draw your combo. The latter doesn't even care about Sulfuric Vortex lol. Kiki Jiki on the other hand is easily disruptable by burn decks. Unless you draw Teferi or Kira I suppose.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Angry Grimace said:
Oh come on. Don't be like that. :rolleyes:

I'm talking about professionals with money on the line - this is literally how they make money and put food on the table.
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But that's not how they put food on the table- this is "fun" money, unless you're one of the SCG guys. Everyone's a weekend warrior here. Play fair. Don't be a shithead. These aren't hard for most people.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
kirblar said:
But that's not how they put food on the table- this is "fun" money, unless you're one of the SCG guys. Everyone's a weekend warrior here. Play fair. Don't be a shithead. These aren't hard for most people.
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They are professional Magic players regardless of what percentage of their income is spent on or earned by Magic, and a LOT of these guys keep their endorsements and writing gigs going by being on the pro tour.

I'm not suggesting you should be cutthroat if you're a casual tryhard or even get free Ari Lax unmorph wins (which is even less debatable, really). I just don't think its really outside the realm of fair play if you're playing in a professional event. Reading the metagame is part of playing in a big professional tournament.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Angry Grimace said:
They are professional Magic players regardless of what percentage of their income is spent on or earned by Magic, and a LOT of these guys keep their endorsements and writing gigs going by being on the pro tour.

I'm not suggesting you should be cutthroat if you're a casual tryhard or even get free Ari Lax unmorph wins (which is even less debatable, really). I just don't think its really outside the realm of fair play if you're playing in a professional event.
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I've had pre-emptive information because people don't keep their mouths shut (I knew about the Mirran Crusader/Spectral Flight deck going into an invitational but couldn't find the red Phyrexian guy who gave -0/-2 on site :( ) - but vendors, especially ones hand-picked by WotC for a PT, need to keep their damn mouths shut.

This, btw, is also one of the reasons the SCG team blew up, iirc. There was some sort of issue with SCG acting on the secondary market with their decklists (specifically Mono-U) that the players were NOT happy with.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Firemind said:
How is entomb reanimate Griselbrand just as easily disruptable as Kiki? :lol Even if your opponent has removal you're going to draw seven or fourteen cards so whatever. I think turn two Griselbrand or turn three Emrakul is even more unfair, since it just leads to concessions as more often than not you can't do anything about it if you're tapped out, as opposed to mid to late game. I drafted both the Griselbrand and Emrakul deck and mono red just concedes if you draw your combo. The latter doesn't even care about Sulfuric Vortex lol. Kiki Jiki on the other hand is easily disruptable by burn decks. Unless you draw Teferi or Kira I suppose.
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Hehe; calm down there, sparky. Disruption can mean a lot of things, not just removal (although this cube has nothing by way of graveyard hate). If you literally Reanimate Griselbrand, you can only draw seven in response to removal, and if the deck you're facing happens to be a creature deck, it might not even be wise to do that. Show and Tell for Emrakul is pretty unbeatable too - although maybe your opponent puts in a Man-o-War (I've done that) or a Control Magic (I've done that too).

But sure, I'll concede that one might be more broken in a vacuum than the other. But you pretty much have to naturally draw the nut seven to pull off the unbeatable draw in the Reanimator deck, while the Kiki-Jiki deck can just pull the old "Oops I Win" from any position. And unless you're literally reanimating Griselbrand, the Reanimator deck runs out of gas quickly if the first fatty gets removed.

My deck today was bizarre. I ended up with this weird draft where I got all of the good mana elves but somehow never saw any of the good fat green creatures after about the middle of the first pack. So I have a pile of mana elves and a bunch of white spells. I thought about going in a completely different direction a couple of times, but ended up playing this weird hybrid deck - GW ramp, splashing for a Sorin and a Brago. Brago was insane every time; blinking walkers, Cloudgoat Ranger, Wall of Omens, etc. My only complaint is that he's a removal magnet; once your opponent realizes what he does, they do everything within their power to kill him.

This was my pool. I'm interested to see how you might have built it. The Upheaval was a late pick in pack two - it came literally after I hemmed and hawed and took a Sunpetal Grove over the Worn Powerstone (still thinking I was primarily GW at that point, and the elves were just going to be better). The weenies came at the very end of pack two, and at one point I thought I might just go BW tokens/aggro, but that didn't come together.

qe12BYa.png


I had a couple of punts too, unfortunately. In my first match against the Kiki-Jiki deck, I had a long and drawn-out game two against him where I opted not to chump block a Porcelain Legionnare against an active Venser, the Sojourner, going to 15 instead, thinking that I was probably safe for another turn. Well, he played a Siege-Gang Commander post-combat, and because I couldn't remove the Venser, he was able to untap, make his creatures unblockable, and throw the last few points of damage at my face. I should have considered that his colors could throw a bunch of burn through and taken the chance to save life where I could, considering that I did have some throwaway creatures. Had I done that, I wouldn't have even gone to the third game where I got mised by the Conscripts/Kiki-Jiki combo.

The third match had a much less interesting punt where I miscounted my mana, tried to do too many things, and I couldn't actually kill a Jitte with the Pridemage that I pulled out with Green Sun's Zenith. Oops. Ended up winning the match though.

Spiritkeeper was the nuts, although it was disappointing that I couldn't push it out turn two unless I started with Savannah or Birds of Paradise. I haven't played with or against Spiritkeeper before - that card is so so so so damn good.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
Some adjustments for the pptq season:

Creatures(21):
  • 4x Satyr Wayfinder
  • 3x Anafenza, the Foremost
  • 2x Brimaz, Kng of Oreskos
  • 3x Hooting Mandrills
  • 4x Siege Rhino
  • 2x Soul of Theros
  • 3x Hornet Queen

Spells(8):
  • 4x Commune With the Gods
  • 4x Murderous Cut

Enchantments(6):
  • 3x Banishing Light
  • 3x Whip of Erebos

Land(25):
  • 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
  • 1x Mana Confluence
  • 4x Sandsteppe Citadel
  • 4x Windswept Heath
  • 4x Llanowar Wastes
  • 1x Caves of Koilos
  • 2x Temple of Malady
  • 2x Temple of Silence
  • 4x Forest
  • 2x Plains

Sidebar(15):

  • 4x Thoughtseize
  • 4x Drown in Sorrow
  • 2x Reclamation Sage
  • 3x Doomwake Giant
  • 2x Abzan Ascendancy


Swapped in some Brimaz to the main and dumped the Doomwakes to the sideboard. The Doomwakes are great against Abzan, Mardu and sligh aggro, but so slow against control, Jeskai and UW heroic. I just want to drop my mana curve a little bit without adding creatures that die to Lightning Strike.


I'm also testing a singleton Spear of Heliod somewhere in there to break up the mirror, but I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. Also tossing around replacing Banishing Lights with Abzan Charms.
 
K

Karakand

Member
The Technomancer said:
Yeah they didn't really have a grasp on power level back then. It goes both ways too. Some old sets are filled with bonkers powerful cards (Urza's block, the original Alpha set) and some sets are basically entirely trash with barely a single playable card in them (Homelands, Mirage)
Click to expand...

Mirage had plenty of playable cards. LED is far more fun than the intentionally overpowered trash they print now. ProsBloom is an iconic deck. It had fetchlands, fer chrissake.
 
F

Firemind

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
And unless you're literally reanimating Griselbrand, the Reanimator deck runs out of gas quickly if the first fatty gets removed.
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I don't draft Griselbrand/Emrakul as all-in type of decks; when it's available I'll always try to draft counterspells, card selection/draw and removal in addition to the combo pieces, usually in that order. They're more control decks that can churn out free wins every now and then. Force of Will and Pact of Negation are especially valuable as they can protect the combo when you're tapped out. In the reanimator deck, it helps to have either Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine in the deck. I had people reanimate Sheoldred against me before which was always a non-threat. In the Sneak and Show deck, it helps to have one of the other two Eldrazi.

This is how I drafted both decks:
nlzCdGw.png
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Gjd8IdY.png
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divisionbyzorro said:
This was my pool. I'm interested to see how you might have built it. The Upheaval was a late pick in pack two - it came literally after I hemmed and hawed and took a Sunpetal Grove over the Worn Powerstone (still thinking I was primarily GW at that point, and the elves were just going to be better). The weenies came at the very end of pack two, and at one point I thought I might just go BW tokens/aggro, but that didn't come together.
Click to expand...
Unless you can do broken stuff like ramp to Primeval Titan, Hornet Queen, Karn, Craterhoof etc., or have answers to literally everything, it's always good to be proactive. If you can't do broken things, then more often than not your opponent can. In your case I'd have played both the Opposition and Upheaval, and ditched Sorin, Ajani, Duplicant, Mentor of the Meek, Green Sun Zenith, Brago, and make room for Martial Coup, Student of Warfare, Phantom Centaur and Arbor Elf. Martial Coup might wipe out your board, but it can replace them with tokens, which works well with both Opposition and Spiritkeeper. I usually avoid G/W since it can't really interact with decks, but Opposition and Upheaval are game changers. Abuse them!
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Karakand said:
Mirage had plenty of playable cards. LED is far more fun than the intentionally overpowered trash they print now. ProsBloom is an iconic deck. It had fetchlands, fer chrissake.
Click to expand...

At the time it was useless though. They hadn't invented Flashback or any other mechanics where it would be seriously useful.
 
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