Support NeoGAF

[WanderingWind]

Agreed. I like MaRo, but good god, his recent output has been all about how much more right he is than literally everybody. It started back with the "things we got right and wrong" series of podcasts. He didn't really admit to WotC doing anything wrong, but when it was wrong, boy was it the old guard's fault.

I know it's human nature to see yourself as the hero in every story, but that last article was just over the top. I think he was trying to do the Socratic logical augmentative framing device, but it fell on its face, hard. "If I had a time machine, I would go back in time and fix all these things with my superior knowledge and divorced from all influences that sometimes forced these decision." Hindsight is 20/20, not a substitute for wisdom.

As much as I hate to say it, I think MaRo needs to step back from the public eye a bit. When you're spending more time talking about how right and awesome every decision you and your close associates make, rather than the game you make, it's time to chill with the Tumblr blogs and whatnot for a bit.

I get why it's happening. Having to read 40 questions a day about "why isn't WotC doing this thing I personally want" has got to be tiring, but the game is not MaRo: The Opinioning, and I think he's slowly losing sight of that fact. Look at his recent public reactions to cards he personally disliked. That's really throwing coworkers under the bus, in my opinion. He's not a bad dude by any stretch, but I think he's letting the internet get to him a bit.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I just read his article and it sounds like a Maro article. He's like that. He has interesting points to make, he's just insufferably nerdy when he writes at times.

I read an interview with Richard Garfield the other day and he said his favorite card is Shaharazad, which is funny because its still the only regular non-ante Magic card banned in every format. Shaharazad should not be banned in Vintage anyways. Nobody would play it anyways.

Also, Maro is wrong. He says, " The Thicket Basilisk ability is called deathtouch, although without the wall rider." Neither Thicket Basilisk nor Cockatrice have Deathtouch at all. Lure + Basilisk was the first big combo I thought of, and it only works because it has a functionally different ability than Deathtouch.

 

[blindrocket]

I like him a fair bit and enjoy reading what he posts daily, but I definitely see your point as well.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Agreed. I like MaRo, but good god, his recent output has been all about how much more right he is than literally everybody. It started back with the "things we got right and wrong" series of podcasts. He didn't really admit to WotC doing anything wrong, but when it was wrong, boy was it the old guard's fault.

I know it's human nature to see yourself as the hero in every story, but that last article was just over the top. I think he was trying to do the Socratic logical augmentative framing device, but it fell on its face, hard. "If I had a time machine, I would go back in time and fix all these things with my superior knowledge and divorced from all influences that sometimes forced these decision." Hindsight is 20/20, not a substitute for wisdom.

As much as I hate to say it, I think MaRo needs to step back from the public eye a bit. When you're spending more time talking about how right and awesome every decision you and your close associates make, rather than the game you make, it's time to chill with the Tumblr blogs and whatnot for a bit.

I get why it's happening. Having to read 40 questions a day about "why isn't WotC doing this thing I personally want" has got to be tiring, but the game is not MaRo: The Opinioning, and I think he's slowly losing sight of that fact. Look at his recent public reactions to cards he personally disliked. That's really throwing coworkers under the bus, in my opinion. He's not a bad dude by any stretch, but I think he's letting the internet get to him a bit.

The problem is that all the stuff I don't like is stuff Maro doesn't like, e.g. Hornet Queen. He's obsessed with the color pie, but he probably should be. That was how we ended up with blue being the God-color.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It had nothing to do with color pie; Tim and Psionic Blast weren't making blue OP. In the early days, spells were amazing and creatures were bad. Blue is the spell color - of course it was the best. As creatures have gotten better and spells worse, the "blue problem" doesn't exist anymore in modern design. Of course it still gets powerful cards, but everybody does.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think a lot of Rosewater's, for lack of a better term, confidence comes from the game's success right now. If you read some of his broader game design commentary its clear that he does believe that a factor in a game's "quality" is how many people enjoy playing it. Now not everyone feels that way (and I don't 100% agree) but if you attribute some or a lot of the recent spike in popularity of the game to its recent designs, of course all the feedback he perceives is that he's doing a great job. More people then ever love playing the game! How can that mean anything other then that its increasingly a better game?

It is an interesting perspective on game design. Because on the one hand it makes complete sense. If you view the purpose of games as helping people have fun, the game which helps more people have fun is almost by definition a better game. On the other hand no-one breaks out a chess board for "game night" with their friends and yet most people wouldn't hesitate to call chess one of the greatest games of all time.

 

[Socat]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149262857]You guys have some fucked up draft rules.

8 Pod, FRF-KTK-KTK $15
3-0: 5 packs/$20 credit
2-0-1: 4 packs/$16 credit
2-1: 3 packs/$12 credit
1-1-1: 2 packs/$8 credit
1-2: 1 pack/$4 credit

Payout at one of the shops up here. There's also $11 drafts at another shop that payout 4 packs to 3-0.

There's a third shop that has garbage payout for limited, but has insane minimum payouts for constructed fnms(18 packs for standard/box for modern) even if 4 people show up.[/QUOTE]

God damn that is a nice payday, where are you from?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

When I drafted in Australia, I paid $15 to draft, and the only prize was getting the FNM promo if you went 3-0. Of course, packs were $6.50 there, so...

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

It is an interesting perspective on game design. Because on the one hand it makes complete sense. If you view the purpose of games as helping people have fun, the game which helps more people have fun is almost by definition a better game. On the other hand no-one breaks out a chess board for "game night" with their friends and yet most people wouldn't hesitate to call chess one of the greatest games of all time.

Somewhere, Sirlin suddenly starts scratching an itch

 

["God's Beard!"]

God damn that is a nice payday, where are you from?

San Francisco

 

[SigmasonicX]

I don't see the problem with MaRo's latest article. Everything he mentioned is stuff that people have been asking about or stuff that focus testing has shown to be confusing for new players.

 

[red13th]

I want basic land reprints, some arts are so hard to find.

 

[The Technomancer]

Honestly my big time machine experiment would be seeing just how different the game would look without Rosewater's influence. Its undeniable that he's brought some structural vision to things, and his emphasis on trying to find mechanical and flavor cohesion, especially through trying to understand emotional response, is something I think he almost uniquely could have articulated, at least among the current stable of R&D (the look at the Innistrad design process is incredible in this regard, and its no coincidence that Innistrad is still possible the best set they've ever made). Lenticular design is another non-obvious thing that I'm not sure if someone else would have noticed.

But then that's just it, would someone else have noticed? That's kind of my interest: how much of what Rosewater has undeniably done is the kind of thing that someone else might not have?

 

[G.ZZZ]

Maro's amazing , i mean, how smart you have to be to justify TNN in blue? That's like, a quantum unified theory of gravity feat of difficulty.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maro's amazing , i mean, how smart you have to be to justify TNN in blue? That's like, a quantum unified theory of gravity feat of difficulty.

If TNN makes sense in anything its blue, or maaaybe white. Color is the least of that cards problems.

 

[kirblar]

If TNN makes sense in anything its blue, or maaaybe white. Color is the least of that cards problems.

Yeah, the problem is the casting cost in the corner, not a flavor thing.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Hey guys, come on. It's 30% of Progenitus for 30% of the price. Completely fair.

 

[red13th]

Plus you can always blame development.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I like True-name Nemesis.

 

[LaserBuddha]

So I've done an overhaul of my first real deck, getting some advice here and from a local player. Here is the final list. I've only played some kitchen games with it, but several of those were against a legacy deck full of planeswalkers and flying token machines and crazy good artifacts and other stuff, and I wrecked face. He'd have 6 1/1 flyers out but even then blocking the Soulflayer would be fruitless. Winning at like 40 life to 0 actually made me feel bad.

Dropping Waste Not was tough since it was the original basis of the deck, but I really wanted to play around with Soulflayer and the rest of the deck just wasn't supporting him and WN+DD.


4 Soulflayer
3 Chromanticore
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Mardu Shadowspear

3 Monastery Siege
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Deal
2 Rakshasa's Sexcret
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Bile Blight
2 Murderous Cut

4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Radiant Fountain
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Island


So far I'm feeling that the Thoughtseize needs to go. Maybe replace it with 2 Crux of Fate and 2 Ruthless Ripper or some other 1-drop?

EDIT: 2 Blood-soaked Champion might be better than 2 Ruthless Ripper. or go 3 and 3 with that and Mardu Shadowspear.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It had nothing to do with color pie; Tim and Psionic Blast weren't making blue OP. In the early days, spells were amazing and creatures were bad. Blue is the spell color - of course it was the best. As creatures have gotten better and spells worse, the "blue problem" doesn't exist anymore in modern design. Of course it still gets powerful cards, but everybody does.

That's the same thing after a fashion. The things the other colors were good at were bad in general - therefore blue and black had significantly less weaknesses.

 

[ultron87]

4 Soulflayer
3 Chromanticore
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Mardu Shadowspear

3 Monastery Siege
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Deal
2 Rakshasa's Sexcret
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Bile Blight
2 Murderous Cut

4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Radiant Fountain
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Island

So far I'm feeling that the Thoughtseize needs to go. Maybe replace it with 2 Crux of Fate and 2 Ruthless Ripper or some other 1-drop?

One thing that stands out to me is the Mardu Shadowspear. Her inclusion suggests a deck with a much more aggressive strategy than what you seem to be doing. You're going to win with a big kitted out Soulflayer hitting them for a ton or Tasigur grinding them down, not a 1/1 that hits for 2 damage.

 

[Angry Grimace]

So I've done an overhaul of my first real deck, getting some advice here and from a local player. Here is the final list. I've only played some kitchen games with it, but several of those were against a legacy deck full of planeswalkers and flying token machines and crazy good artifacts and other stuff, and I wrecked face. He'd have 6 1/1 flyers out but even then blocking the Soulflayer would be fruitless. Winning at like 40 life to 0 actually made me feel bad.

Dropping Waste Not was tough since it was the original basis of the deck, but I really wanted to play around with Soulflayer and the rest of the deck just wasn't supporting him and WN+DD.


4 Soulflayer
3 Chromanticore
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Mardu Shadowspear

3 Monastery Siege
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Deal
2 Rakshasa's Sexcret
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Bile Blight
2 Murderous Cut

4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Radiant Fountain
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Island


So far I'm feeling that the Thoughtseize needs to go. Maybe replace it with 2 Crux of Fate and 2 Ruthless Ripper or some other 1-drop?

EDIT: 2 Blood-soaked Champion might be better than 2 Ruthless Ripper. or go 3 and 3 with that and Mardu Shadowspear.

bow chika bow wow

 

[LaserBuddha]

bow chika bow wow

Now the card art has much different implications.

One thing that stands out to me is the Mardu Shadowspear. Her inclusion suggests a deck with a much more aggressive strategy than what you seem to be doing. You're going to win with a big kitted out Soulflayer hitting them for a ton or Tasigur grinding them down, not a 1/1 that hits for 2 damage.

The deck was starved for 1-drops and he's been handy at whittling away at them and/or stocking up my graveyard while I wait for the right cards. I'm definitely open to suggestions, though.

 

[ThLunarian]

I'm a big fan of playing Gods in Soulflayer decks to give him Indestructibility. If you ever manage to Delve away both a Chromanticore and a God, your dude is basically unstoppable.

Your options (if you actually want to cast the gods, anyway) are Erebos, Thassa, and Phenax (lol). None of them are likely to ever turn on, so it depends on whether you want a Scry every turn for 3 mana or card draw for significantly more mana.

 

["God's Beard!"]

That's the same thing after a fashion. The things the other colors were good at were bad in general - therefore blue and black had significantly less weaknesses.

Dimir is my favorite two-color combo but black has been nerfed way too hard over the years. Bring back the sweet tutors and graveyard spells.

My top ten favorite cards ever:

1. Bazaar of Baghdad
2. Demonic Tutor
3. Brainstorm
4. Mana Drain
5. Library of Alexandria
6. Griselbrand
7. Young Pyromancer
8. Thoughtseize
9. Force of Will
10. Reanimate

 

[ThLunarian]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149375585]

1. Bazaar of Baghdad
[/QUOTE]

I was excited about Worldgorger Dragon's unbanning because I thought for some reason that Bazaar of Baghdad was still legal in Legacy. I even went as far as to make a decklist to proxy at a local tournament.

Imagine my disappointment when I actually thought to check on that

 

[LaserBuddha]

I'm a big fan of playing Gods in Soulflayer decks to give him Indestructibility. If you ever manage to Delve away both a Chromanticore and a God, your dude is basically unstoppable.

Your options (if you actually want to cast the gods, anyway) are Erebos, Thassa, and Phenax (lol). None of them are likely to ever turn on, so it depends on whether you want a Scry every turn for 3 mana or card draw for significantly more mana.

I really like this idea. Would it be crazy to drop the Mardu Shadowspears and put in 2 Erebos and 2 Thassa?

I'm also kind of conflicted on the Thoughtseize. I've found myself using it to make myself discard Chromanticore moreso than making my opponent discard, especially because I find myself wanting to activate Tasigur at times where I'm going to end up with a Chromanticore. As far as I know there isn't a less punishing self-discard available for such low cost.

But then the question is, where do I put in a board wipe if I keep Thoughtseize?

 

["God's Beard!"]

I was excited about Worldgorger Dragon's unbanning because I thought for some reason that Bazaar of Baghdad was still legal in Legacy. I even went as far as to make a decklist to proxy at a local tournament.

Imagine my disappointment when I actually thought to check on that

I'd be fine with it getting unbanned.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149382218]I'd be fine with it getting unbanned.[/QUOTE]

:lol

 

[y2dvd]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149262857]You guys have some fucked up draft rules.

8 Pod, FRF-KTK-KTK $15
3-0: 5 packs/$20 credit
2-0-1: 4 packs/$16 credit
2-1: 3 packs/$12 credit
1-1-1: 2 packs/$8 credit
1-2: 1 pack/$4 credit

Payout at one of the shops up here. There's also $11 drafts at another shop that payout 4 packs to 3-0.

There's a third shop that has garbage payout for limited, but has insane minimum payouts for constructed fnms(18 packs for standard/box for modern) even if 4 people show up.[/QUOTE]

That is extremely generous. My lgs is usually great with prizes during events but regular drafts and FNM's are nowhere near this good.

 

[charlequin]

I know it's human nature to see yourself as the hero in every story, but that last article was just over the top. I think he was trying to do the Socratic logical augmentative framing device, but it fell on its face, hard. "If I had a time machine, I would go back in time and fix all these things with my superior knowledge and divorced from all influences that sometimes forced these decision." Hindsight is 20/20, not a substitute for wisdom.

Eh. I mean, the "what would you do differently" thing has been coming up on his Tumblr for years and he always wraps it in "but actually I wouldn't change anything because Richard and early WotC did things exactly right to make the game popular and successful."

There's two things I really do think he could improve on. One is the absolutism on design rules, especially the idea that everything has to follow the same principles even if it never hits Standard. Aaron Forsythe, Ken Nagle, and Dan Emmons have all talked about how they just smile and nod then print stuff in Commander sets or whatever anyway, because providing valuable tools for Eternal formats is more important than abstract principles, and because the game's probably more fun overall when there are some of these transgressions every once in a while.

The other -- and this is probably WotC's fault more than anything else, but still -- is how he admits fault. He's certainly willing to say they screwed up on stuff long afterwards when the public agree, but he really avoids confronting a lot of screw-ups until long afterwards. The Killing a Goldfish Alara review just reminded me what a huge screw-up that block was (both the yet-more-multicolor thing and the hot garbage that was cascade) and it's taken until recently for them to really acknowledge that. (Conversely, Forsythe is too quiet these days, but he's always been good on this point.)

I don't see the problem with MaRo's latest article. Everything he mentioned is stuff that people have been asking about or stuff that focus testing has shown to be confusing for new players.

Actually my biggest problem with it is the future fallacy. He always says "I expect the game to be around for 50 years" or whatever -- well, no matter how long you've already gone, if the future stretches out indefinitely it's longer than the past.

But then that's just it, would someone else have noticed? That's kind of my interest: how much of what Rosewater has undeniably done is the kind of thing that someone else might not have?

They probably wouldn't have hired anyone else with a communications background and might've just tried to keep the game going run solely by math dweebs, that would have been unfortunate.

 

[kirblar]

I'm very curious if they ever address how the super-safe Theros block ended up being a disaster because of how boring it was. (Sets 2/3, anecdotally, have very real sales issues.) Conversely, they swung for the fences with Innistrad/Khans and did very well. I also don't think Greek/Roman mythology had the flexibility to make a good top-down block- all the references are very specific, unlike the 5 million different takes on Gothic Horror that exist.

 

[Toxi]

The other -- and this is probably WotC's fault more than anything else, but still -- is how he admits fault. He's certainly willing to say they screwed up on stuff long afterwards when the public agree, but he really avoids confronting a lot of screw-ups until long afterwards. The Killing a Goldfish Alara review just reminded me what a huge screw-up that block was (both the yet-more-multicolor thing and the hot garbage that was cascade) and it's taken until recently for them to really acknowledge that. (Conversely, Forsythe is too quiet these days, but he's always been good on this point)

These Killing a Goldfish reviews are really on-point. He savages just how uninspired Alara's design was from both a flavor and mechanics standpoint (though I'd argue Naya was much more of a failure than Jund; Jund's token subtheme at least actually worked).

And Cascade is such an awful mechanic. Randomness is an inherent part of Magic's design, but it works best when it's kept subtle, like drawing cards from a randomly shuffled deck. Mechanics like Cascade (and Clash) throw the randomness at your face. Playing a Cascade card has such a variance in fun, from getting an absurd unfair value like Bloodbraid Elf into Blightning to getting a crappy spell and a crappier spell for a billion mana.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It's funny - most of the spells in the Alara block with Cascade aren't worth a card on their own.

Except one.

 

[kirblar]

I'd argue Esper actually sucked as well, from an execution standpoint. Didn't play well with the other guilds, didn't have any fun mechanical stuff- just a gimmick w/ common lifegain/lifeloss artifacts. At the prerelease I had a "what is this shit" reaction to what I was opening. Luckily, Conflux/Reborn were much better.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't find myself agreeing with everything Goldfish says in his reviews, but they're undeniably a valuable perspective. I think he values some different things in the game then I do, and he definitely approaches things from a different viewpoint. I'm one of the crazy people who thinks that Zendikar and Worldwake were good sets, so I'm super curious to see what he has to say about them.

I do agree with him that Time Spiral block can be, in some ways, considered Magic's crowning achievement, but I also recognize that its the kind of thing they probably could never quite do again, and I think the majority of the design we've seen since then has been above average compared to the history of the game

I'm glad someone else is saying Alara block was lackluster, although if anything I have almost the opposite opinion. Alara Reborn may have had a lot of crazy individual cards, but it also devalued the idea of multicolor cards more then any other set has or will. There's just so much effective french vanilla junk. Maybe that was unavoidable with an all gold set, but then maybe they shouldn't have made an all gold set

 

[Angry Grimace]

I was excited about Worldgorger Dragon's unbanning because I thought for some reason that Bazaar of Baghdad was still legal in Legacy. I even went as far as to make a decklist to proxy at a local tournament.

Imagine my disappointment when I actually thought to check on that

I don't think it was ever legal in Legacy due to Dredge existing.

I'm very curious if they ever address how the super-safe Theros block ended up being a disaster because of how boring it was. (Sets 2/3, anecdotally, have very real sales issues.) Conversely, they swung for the fences with Innistrad/Khans and did very well. I also don't think Greek/Roman mythology had the flexibility to make a good top-down block- all the references are very specific, unlike the 5 million different takes on Gothic Horror that exist.

I honestly don't see what in particular makes Khans a "great set."

 

[kirblar]

I don't find myself agreeing with everything Goldfish says in his reviews, but they're undeniably a valuable perspective. I think he values some different things in the game then I do, and he definitely approaches things from a different viewpoint. I'm one of the crazy people who thinks that Zendikar and Worldwake were good sets, so I'm super curious to see what he has to say about them.

I do agree with him that Time Spiral block can be, in some ways, considered Magic's crowning achievement, but I also recognize that its the kind of thing they probably could never quite do again, and I think the majority of the design we've seen since then has been above average compared to the history of the game

Zendikar/Worldwake are considered good sets. Zendikar's just not considered a great limited environment.

Planar Chaos was their own screw-up. Instead of Alternate Reality, they just needed to do Mirrodin+ mechanics.

 

[Toxi]

I definitely disagree with the Time Spiral review on some things. A card like Darksteel Garrison isn't innovative, it's just an overly complicated way of accomplishing a very simple and underwhelming effect. It's a card that's nicer to read than actually play with.

 

[The Technomancer]

I mean, I like Theros limited. I even had a lot of fun with Zenikar limited. But this shit was just dull

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's boring, but I like the alara mechanics because they enable oddball decks.

 

[LaserBuddha]

A more direct question for you guys... If I have a Soulflayer and delved a Chromanticore, and wanted to delve for another ability, which would be better: Indestructible or Hexproof?

 

[ultron87]

I'd think hexproof.

Things Hexproof protects you from that Indestructible doesn't: Bile Blight, Abzan Charm, Chained to the Rocks

Things Indestructible Protects you from that Hexproof doesn't: Crux of Fate, End Hostilities, Duneblast, Double Anger of the Gods, losing in combat

I feel like the Hexproof list is things that are more common. Especially when you consider Bile Blight since a lot of decks have that right now.

Edit: Bile Blight is -3/-3. I'm dumb.

 

[LaserBuddha]

I'd think hexproof.

Things Hexproof protects you from that Indestructible doesn't: Bile Blight, Abzan Charm, Chained to the Rocks

Things Indestructible Protects you from that Hexproof doesn't: Crux of Fate, End Hostilities, Duneblast, Double Anger of the Gods, losing in combat

I feel like the Hexproof list is things that are more common. Especially when you consider Bile Blight since a lot of decks have that right now.

Edit: Bile Blight is -3/-3. I'm dumb.

Thanks, yeah I'll go with hexproof.

A followup: is Thoughtsiege the best thing in Standard for me to use for discarding these, by virtue of its mana cost? It sure is nice to use one and have enough mana left to delve for Soulflayer early on, but i hate the life loss.

 

[Firemind]

I'd argue Esper actually sucked as well, from an execution standpoint. Didn't play well with the other guilds, didn't have any fun mechanical stuff- just a gimmick w/ common lifegain/lifeloss artifacts. At the prerelease I had a "what is this shit" reaction to what I was opening. Luckily, Conflux/Reborn were much better.

Esper with SHA/SHA/ALA was brilliant. You had Esperzoa, the pay for one drain 3/3 and Thopter Foundry. Conflux didn't add much, yeah, but I thoroughly enjoyed drafting Esper when Alara Reborn came out.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Thanks, yeah I'll go with hexproof.

A followup: is Thoughtsiege the best thing in Standard for me to use for discarding these, by virtue of its mana cost? It sure is nice to use one and have enough mana left to delve for Soulflayer early on, but i hate the life loss.

I do think dredge strategies are the best way to enable soulflayer, here's my list:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147590717&postcount=11409

You could get spicy and swap the titanic growths for the flying first strike bats.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'd think hexproof.

Things Hexproof protects you from that Indestructible doesn't: Bile Blight, Abzan Charm, Chained to the Rocks

Things Indestructible Protects you from that Hexproof doesn't: Crux of Fate, End Hostilities, Duneblast, Double Anger of the Gods, losing in combat

I feel like the Hexproof list is things that are more common. Especially when you consider Bile Blight since a lot of decks have that right now.

Edit: Bile Blight is -3/-3. I'm dumb.

Utter End probably goes in the first list. Perilous Vault and Ugin are all things that can't be prevented.

Soulflayer is probably bad and its a pretty big feel bad when he gets countered or killed because unlike Tasigur, you're not curating your delve to get rid of crap and Torrent Elementals. You're getting rid of non-recoverable resources.

Thanks, yeah I'll go with hexproof.

A followup: is Thoughtsiege the best thing in Standard for me to use for discarding these, by virtue of its mana cost? It sure is nice to use one and have enough mana left to delve for Soulflayer early on, but i hate the life loss.

You probably don't want to Thoughtseize yourself ever unless you're playing actual Dredge or something. Not to mention, Thoughtseize is 20 dollars a pop.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Not to mention, Thoughtseize is 20 dollars a pop.

O_O

 

[keeblerdrow]

Thanks, yeah I'll go with hexproof.

A followup: is Thoughtsiege the best thing in Standard for me to use for discarding these, by virtue of its mana cost? It sure is nice to use one and have enough mana left to delve for Soulflayer early on, but i hate the life loss.

You'd mostly ever want to target yourself to get a creature out of hand, so Despise would work and not hurt you as much as Thoughtsieze. And is cheaper.

I'd also think Torrent Elemental is a no-brainer for this deck. You also need more effects for milling yourself.