Support NeoGAF

[Haly]

Red Husband
1RR
Legendary Human Soldier

Haste

When Red Husband comes into play, you may put a legendary 2/2 red Human Soldier with First Strike into play named Red Wife.

If you control a creature named Red Wife, Red Husband gets -1/+1, vigilance and loses haste.

3/1

 

[WanderingWind]

No, that's at least an interesting thought experiment. Steve Argyle/Liliana Vess/of the Veil chat just turns into a barely-Magic discussion which goes around in circles over and over with people getting angry.

I notice you only named black cards. Do you have something against black cards Grimace? Hmm?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I notice you only named black cards. Do you have something against black cards Grimace? Hmm?

Steve Argyle isn't a card, he's just the poster child for Liliana of the Veil and "sexism in Magic!" arguments.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I notice you only named black cards. Do you have something against black cards Grimace? Hmm?

R&D does :-(

 

[WanderingWind]

But black cards are dominating the game ATM

 

[bigkrev]

Hasbro Financial info is out. I only took a glance at it, didn't see anything about Magic except that it was "Up", but I could have missed something

http://investor.hasbro.com/eventdetail.cfm?EventID=154920

 

[charlequin]

I think the boots are what kill it for me

There's sexytime and then there's literally "this is just fetishwear"

I had to think about this for a second and I realized that I know so many women who go out in fuck-me boots that I don't actually think of them as being weird or unusual at all.

Which really dovetails nicely into something I've been thinking about lately but have been hesitant to post on here, which is the diversity in the playerbase and how to improve it.

There are lots of factors that go into this, but number one is just the awful, unpleasant guys who play. Getting women interested in the game in a vacuum is pretty easy, since it is actually one of the least cheesecake-y fantasy games and there's enough different ways to play that it's easy to find a good entry point for anyone who's already a fantasy or tabletop-gaming fan. The problem is that the second someone decides to even hint at playing competitively it's all over: you go to a smelly strip-mall building where players are packed in to too little space and there's no food except Doritos and Mountain Dew, and then you have to put up with playing against (on average) 2.7 misogynist assholes just to get through a single pre-release.

Steve Argyle isn't a card, he's just the poster child for Liliana of the Veil and "sexism in Magic!" arguments.

Let's not forget shitty artist!

It's the red problem- non-Anger emotions are very difficult to get across given that the game is about combat.

I still maintain this is a failure of imagination much moreso than an actual underlying problem.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151286165]
Look at how embedded Teysa is in this Karla Ortiz art.[/QUOTE]

Still a little crabby about how nice this illustration is and how crummy the card it got stuck on was. :/

 

[kirblar]

There are actually two very different issues regarding women in magic and the visibility of them. One is getting more women to play magic. That's happening, and should continue to grow over time. The second issue, and the one I don't think there's ever going to be significant movement on, is getting women into competitive Magic. (This is a pattern that goes far beyond MTG itself.) This presents an image problem, because the competitive sphere isn't reflecting the entire sphere, but is by far the most visible.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well okay, Argyle is a card, just not a Magic card:

I suppose there can be something said about the number of buff shirtless dudes in MTG and other card games, too.

 

[WanderingWind]

Hasbro Financial info is out. I only took a glance at it, didn't see anything about Magic except that it was "Up", but I could have missed something

http://investor.hasbro.com/eventdetail.cfm?EventID=154920

This is my wheelhouse right here. A couple of things to take away here.

1) They specifically note that they invested into the online platform. This is good news, because the verbiage speaks volume. The made specific note of it in relation to gross revenue, so it seems they were softening the blow of perhaps lower than expected revenue increases. But that does mean Hasbro (vice WotC) is listening to the online backlash and decided to direct some funds toward development.

2) It's one of 6 brands they continuous reiterate as one of their franchise, core brands. Maybe not news to us, but it shows Hasbro sees MtG on the same level of say, Nerf - which is fantastic.

3) Six of the seven core brands generated a 31 percent revenue increase. Magic is among those. They clearly have great confidence in the brand.

4) Beyblade and Furby relaunches were cataclysmic failures...lol.

5) Growth outside the States is strong, though it doesn't appear strong enough that it's going to cause any wavves.

tl;dr: Magic is still growing and is generating perhaps slightly above expectations for Hasbro.

 

[Angry Grimace]

MTG probably prints money given that it sells pieces of paper and I doubt they pay development/design all that much. Even in down years, I imagine its making tons of profit.

I think this is why they are hesitant to put money into MTGO - it requires actual investment beyond what they normally do.

 

[kirblar]

MTG probably prints money given that it sells pieces of paper and I doubt they pay development/design all that much. Even in down years, I imagine its making tons of profit.

I think this is why they are hesitant to put money into MTGO - it requires actual investment beyond what they normally do.

Yeah, this is basically the issue- it prints money without investment, so they're freaked out at the idea of investing money in something where the might not see a return.

(They'll see a return.)

 

[OnPoint]

Still a little crabby about how nice this illustration is and how crummy the card it got stuck on was. :/

Was a damn shame really.

 

[WanderingWind]

It it printed money, it'd be the lead in on every piece of investor communication. It's not. While it clearly is doing well, it's not their major brand. But it is within the top 6, which is pretty damn good for a company that basically owns toys.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So I was trying to figure out why I've played 10x as much MTGO beta as I have regular MTGO lately. Is it because it's free? Is it because the "beta" format is more interesting?

No. It's that I can play Limited Magic one match at a time.

They could get so much money from me if they could make Leagues happen.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It it printed money, it'd be the lead in on every piece of investor communication. It's not. While it clearly is doing well, it's not their major brand. But it is within the top 6, which is pretty damn good for a company that basically owns toys.

Don't confuse "prints money" vs. infinite growth. Its still a niche market, but its likely extremely profitable within that niche market.

 

[WanderingWind]

Don't confuse "prints money" vs. infinite growth. Its still a niche market, but its likely extremely profitable within that niche market.

Well, I can't confuse those two because there is no such thing as "infinite growth" and "prints money" is a colloquial expression that means whatever you want it to mean, really. But, if Magic was massively profitable, they would not be shy about crowing it from the rooftops here. It was a muted, but greatly optimistic outlook.

All good news, but investors aren't exactly popping bottles of Dom.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well, I can't confuse those two because there is no such thing as "infinite growth" and "prints money" is a colloquial expression that means whatever you want it to mean, really. But, if Magic was massively profitable, they would not be shy about crowing it from the rooftops here. It was a muted, but greatly optimistic outlook.

All good news, but investors aren't exactly popping bottles of Dom.

Sure, I guess. I'm just saying, its probably quite profitable vs. what they invest into it, but they aren't going to say "we only pay Maro 75K" or something. Its the simple fact that the actual production costs are assuredly miniscule.

 

[kirblar]

Well, I can't confuse those two because there is no such thing as "infinite growth" and "prints money" is a colloquial expression that means whatever you want it to mean, really. But, if Magic was massively profitable, they would not be shy about crowing it from the rooftops here. It was a muted, but greatly optimistic outlook.

All good news, but investors aren't exactly popping bottles of Dom.

The question was never "will they plateau?", it was "when will they?" We may be seeing it right now, which makes the outreach effort redoubling w/ Origins make more sense.

 

[The Technomancer]

The question was never "will they plateau?", it was "when will they?" We may be seeing it right now, which makes the outreach effort redoubling w/ Origins make more sense.

If anything I feel like they might be just about to enter a period of explosive growth, my current intuition is that they might hit their plateau hard in five years. That's not based on much more than vague feeling though.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

If anything I feel like they might be just about to enter a period of explosive growth, my current intuition is that they might hit their plateau hard in five years. That's not based on much more than vague feeling though.

Only if they pay the kicker.

Spoiler

That particular gag works better if you have Autocard Anywhere installed

 

[WanderingWind]

The question was never "will they plateau?", it was "when will they?" We may be seeing it right now, which makes the outreach effort redoubling w/ Origins make more sense.

Perhaps, but if so, this is the very early stages. I'd have to see 2012's growth to really make an educated guess. But there is good enough growth from last year to now that it wouldn't worry me as an investor.

Fun aside, they increased product development across the board by 20 million. Couple that with MTGO being the only specific mention of a investment for the future and I wonder how sizable their investment was. Clearly not the whole enchilada, but interesting speculation point.

 

[charlequin]

MTG probably prints money given that it sells pieces of paper and I doubt they pay development/design all that much.

Assuming there's like 40 people working on Magic, that's probably around a $5m burn rate on personnel. Around $2m a year on art commissions, probably around a buck per pack to print cards... advertising budget... yeah I dunno. What did we work out their annual rev to be, something like $400m?

I think this is why they are hesitant to put money into MTGO - it requires actual investment beyond what they normally do.

It's certainly a worse ROI if you look at it in a short-term sense. You're probably looking at a one-time cost of $10+m to rebuild MTGO into a reasonable product, and it's a small portion of overall Magic revenue. But the mid-term growth opportunity is huge.

 

[ultron87]

So I was trying to figure out why I've played 10x as much MTGO beta as I have regular MTGO lately. Is it because it's free? Is it because the "beta" format is more interesting?

No. It's that I can play Limited Magic one match at a time.

They could get so much money from me if they could make Leagues happen.

It is definitely a very enticing prospect. Depending on how they are priced, Leagues might vastly increase my use of Magic Online.

If they really wanted to get spicy they'd do cheap phantom leagues that act like Hearthstone's Arena in terms of prize payout, but I don't think they want people to be able to fill their desire to play limited without dropping the money for "actual" product. Otherwise they would've had cheap Phantom drafts years ago.

 

[charlequin]

It is definitely a very enticing prospect. Depending on how they are priced, Leagues might vastly increase my use of Magic Online.

Same.

If they really wanted to get spicy they'd do cheap phantom leagues that act like Hearthstone's Arena in terms of prize payout, but I don't think they want people to be able to fill their desire to play limited without dropping the money for "actual" product. Otherwise they would've had cheap Phantom drafts years ago.

They already have the technology they need to resolve this with phantom points, the problem is just that as long as there's redemption they need to keep perfect price parity.

 

[red13th]

Well okay, Argyle is a card, just not a Magic card:




I suppose there can be something said about the number of buff shirtless dudes in MTG and other card games, too.

Wait that is him? He's my favourite MtG artist now, I want to marry him.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Wait that is him? He's my favourite MtG artist now, I want to marry him.

That is in fact Steve Argyle, modeling for himself.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Forget Lili, Avatar of Woe is where it's at, guys. That third arm really gets me going.

 

[red13th]

That is in fact Steve Argyle, modeling for himself.

<3 <3 <3
I'm in love.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Wait that is him? He's my favourite MtG artist now, I want to marry him.

His wife was the model for Liliana.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151343414]His wife was the model for Liliana.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't his neighbor or niece or something the human side of Chosen of Markov? He does tend to use people he knows as his models rather than, well, models.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Wasn't his neighbor or niece or something the human side of Chosen of Markov? He does tend to use people he knows as his models rather than, well, models.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ygg39/im_really_good_friends_with_magic_artist_steve/

 

[red13th]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151343414]His wife was the model for Liliana.[/QUOTE]

He can divorce her, I'll wait.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Wasn't his neighbor or niece or something the human side of Chosen of Markov? He does tend to use people he knows as his models rather than, well, models.

Basically some girl that lived down the street:

 

["God's Beard!"]

Wasn't his neighbor or niece or something the human side of Chosen of Markov? He does tend to use people he knows as his models rather than, well, models.

When it comes to illustration, there's not a big difference. If he was a fine artist where he needed someone to sit still for extended periods of time while he paints or sculpts, then a pro is much better.

But when it comes to fantasy art where you just need a pose and some details, you can get a quick photoshoot done and have all the reference you need. At that point why pay a couple hundred bucks for an art model?

 

[ironmang]

So what chance do you guys think we'll see ZEN fetches reprinted in this next set? Looking to get a playset of Scalding Tarns but if there have been strong hints of a reprint I may hold off.

 

[ultron87]

I personally think they'll be in Dragons because they know a reprint is needed, they've been printing full land cycles lately, and they said that the Onslaught fetches were in Khans before any design had even started so mechanical reasons aren't holding them back.

Dragons previews start in a few weeks, so you won't have to wait that long. Of course Zen fetches might go up in price even more if they're not in the set.

If they're not in Dragons they could also end up in Modern Masters 2 this summer, but that seems less likely since they need a mass reprinting and putting them in 10 dollar packs is not going to help the price that much.

 

[OnPoint]

I personally think they'll be in Dragons because they know a reprint is needed, they've been printing full land cycles lately, and they said that the Onslaught fetches were in Khans before any design had even started so mechanical reasons aren't holding them back.

Dragons previews start in a few weeks, so you won't have to wait that long. Of course Zen fetches might go up in price even more if they're not in the set.

If they're not in Dragons they could also end up in Modern Masters 2 this summer, but that seems less likely since they need a mass reprinting and putting them in 10 dollar packs is not going to help the price that much.

yep. That's why Dragons reprints makes sense

 

["God's Beard!"]

No matter how much I read it, ten dollar packs never make any more sense to me. They better be printing some insane shit for that to be justifiable.

 

[manipulate]

There are lots of factors that go into this, but number one is just the awful, unpleasant guys who play. Getting women interested in the game in a vacuum is pretty easy, since it is actually one of the least cheesecake-y fantasy games and there's enough different ways to play that it's easy to find a good entry point for anyone who's already a fantasy or tabletop-gaming fan. The problem is that the second someone decides to even hint at playing competitively it's all over: you go to a smelly strip-mall building where players are packed in to too little space and there's no food except Doritos and Mountain Dew, and then you have to put up with playing against (on average) 2.7 misogynist assholes just to get through a single pre-release.

God this, why are game stores such grimy dank holes? they're depressing as fuck

 

[charlequin]

God this, why are game stores such grimy dank holes? they're depressing as fuck

I mean, mostly because it's a high-risk, low-margin business, but a little bit because they're usually run by people who are not heavily socially oriented?

In a few places they're starting to open upscale, adult-targeted gaming stores like Mox Boarding House and I am insanely jealous. For all that it's an online sales juggernaut and a competitive landmark, ChannelFireball's physical store is a miserable hole and the crowd at any event is ultra-stereotypical.

 

[red13th]

Vengevine exploded, it was $11 in January and now it's sold out at $20. Should have bought mine sooner. :/
MM2 plz? What's the deal with mythic green 4-drops too, I'm missing Thrun, Vengevine and Master of the Wild.

 

[The Technomancer]

In a few places they're starting to open upscale, adult-targeted gaming stores like Mox Boarding House and I am insanely jealous.

Its amazing how far a little interior design goes.

 

[Haly]

but a little bit because they're usually run by people who are not heavily socially oriented?

I think it's the other way around. The clientele isn't the type to care about decor, cleanliness, quality of service, etc. As long as there are cards to buy, anything will do, and the cheaper the better. So store owners have no real reason to meet standard for traditional stores.

It's kind of like those Chinatown import shops you'll find in urban centers around America. They have a product to sell that you can't really get anywhere else, and that is the extent of their relationship with their customers.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think it's the other way around. The clientele isn't the type to care about decor, cleanliness, quality of service, etc. As long as there are cards to buy, anything will do, and the cheaper the better. So store owners have no real reason to meet standard for traditional stores.

It's kind of like those Chinatown import shops you'll find in urban centers around America. They have a product to sell that you can't really get anywhere else, and that is the extent of their relationship with their customers.

Perhaps. That's definitely not me though. The store I posted above is the first one I've ever really started frequenting in large part because its one of the first ones where I've actually felt comfortable spending 3+ hours to draft, instead of the environment being something I had to tolerate to play Magic

I hope more stores start to realize that there are (hopefully) a lot of us out there

 

[manipulate]

I think it's actually the biggest thing keeping me from playing Magic regularly. I just find it so freaking depressing being in these small dark rooms that resemble crack dens while stone cold sober

 

["God's Beard!"]

I just find it so freaking depressing being in these small dark rooms that resemble crack dens while stone cold sober

My LGS:

 

[kirblar]

The low margins are by far the biggest issue. Play space is expensive. All of the stores in my area form a ring in the outer suburbs since the boom- no one can afford the inner ones.

edit: San Fran, GB?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Any merit to the thought that Origins is testing storylines for the Magic movie?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Any merit to the thought that Origins is testing storylines for the Magic movie?

I think they just want to use those core walkers in the next few blocks as central characters.

I think they're trying to phase out Ajani as mono-white, too. I want them to reprint Vengeant in Standard, I love that card.