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[The Technomancer]

My opinion on this is...conflicted. On the one hand I think that yeah, all of these depictions are varying degrees of tacky to sexist when critiqued on their own. On the other hand, Magic is good enough about this stuff that I don't begrudge them one or two "sexy" characters, although it is a bit problematic that it keeps associating that to black.

On the third hand, I also also agree that, back to being evaluated in a vacuum, this is the kind of thing that can be offputting to potential female players because so many other hobby games have trained them that where there's smoke there's fire, and I couldn't blame them at all for seeing Liliana and going "oh its one of those games"

Which really dovetails nicely into something I've been thinking about lately but have been hesitant to post on here, which is the diversity in the playerbase and how to improve it. When I draft at my LGS yeah, its 26 or so white guys and a few black guys. Now I recognize that the gamestore environment itself has a lot of associations that might be keeping women away, but even taking that into account I think the game still suffers from a lack of player diversity that it doesn't have to. What can be done about that? Is the problem the entrenched playerbase and sexism? Is the association of physical nerd games as "not being for women" still that much of an issue, even though its been waning in recent years?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Uh, no I absolutely do not believe that. That is the basically tokenism. When a minority is a thing or does a thing, it's not appropriate to think of that thing as representative of the whole. I've reiterated this one a couple of times. If you disagree, so be it, but no, I do not agree with this in the slightest.

It has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate. Every person, organization, corporation, etc, is judged by by their outliers and by experiences that we have with them that may not be representative of the whole. I'll pick on Chik-Fil-A here for a second. These guys have the most courteous staff of any fast-food restaurant I've ever been to. They give their entire organization an entire day off once a week at the expense of profit. They donate relentlessly to local communities.

And then they donate money towards inhibiting the legalization of gay marriage, and suddenly they're completely evil.

I'm not telling you whether or not its wrong for you to think that Chik-Fil-A is a good company or not. But you can't deny that one action completely changed the way they were perceived by the nation, despite the fact that the rest of their organization was completely unchanged.

You seem to be missing that I'm talking about the artist, who is a real person. I really don't see how you missed that, to be honest.

I did ignore the part about the artist, because I think that the gender of the artist is completely irrelevant when it comes to critiquing the artwork. I was more referring to your final comment which seemed to extrapolated to say that a woman should be able to express herself sexually without me telling her it's "bad." I'm certainly not telling women how to live their lives. I simply think that Wizards should exhibit a greater degree of artistic control over how Liliana is depicted and take a hard look at whether or not its sending the message they want to send.

 

[WanderingWind]

although it is a bit problematic that it keeps associating that to black.

I don't follow, what do you mean here? (This is ignoring the fact that it's also not correct, but for the sake of discussion let's say it is)

It has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate. Every person, organization, corporation, etc, is judged by by their outliers and by experiences that we have with them that may not be representative of the whole. I'll pick on Chik-Fil-A here for a second. These guys have the most courteous staff of any fast-food restaurant I've ever been to. They give their entire organization an entire day off once a week at the expense of profit. They donate relentlessly to local communities.

And then they donate money towards inhibiting the legalization of gay marriage, and suddenly they're completely evil.

I'm not telling you whether or not its wrong for you to think that Chik-Fil-A is a good company or not. But you can't deny that one action completely changed the way they were perceived by the nation, despite the fact that the rest of their organization was completely unchanged.

I did ignore the part about the artist, because I think that the gender of the artist is completely irrelevant when it comes to critiquing the artwork. I was more referring to your final comment which seemed to extrapolated to say that a woman should be able to express herself sexually without me telling her it's "bad." I'm certainly not telling women how to live their lives. I simply think that Wizards should exhibit a greater degree of artistic control over how Liliana is depicted and take a hard look at whether or not its sending the message they want to send.

Sorry, but I'm not going to ever agree with your first point. I don't see any further movement happening on that point. I very, very strongly believe evidence and reality matters, not perceptions and judging a whole group by a few outliers. I won't deny that it happens, but that doesn't make it right or something we lazily use as a defense.

As to your second one, you can't just ignore the context of a paragraph like that...lol. Sure, if you ignore the part about the artist, then I suppose it looks like I was talking about a fictional character. But, you can't just do that.

 

[Crocodile]

There are so many White and Asian (Eastern mostly) Magic players but I rarely see any Black Magic players. If I see any at a LGS they are usually there for Yu-Gi-Oh or boardgames. I always thought it was weird and I remember even talking to Cedric Phillips about it. I think we came to the conclusion that socioeconomics probably has a big deal to do with it. With regard to female players and as to why there are so few, I think its way more likely that the player base is more off-putting than any element of the card game and talking to some of them over the years has kind of reinforced that notion.

 

[y2dvd]

I can't believe we're having this discussion lol, but I have to agree with WW on this one, especially with this.

Again, the artist here is a woman, so who are we, as dudes to tell her that her own depiction is a "bad" example of a powerful woman? Is she not allowed to define the character? We've seen plenty of Lili art that is far, far less sexualized, so clearly there is no grand "make her Franzetta-style" at play here. A woman is allowed to be sexy, exhibit sexiness or show it in a fictional status and do so without having guys telling her that it's "bad."

My gf grew up in France where people wouldn't bat an eye over sexualized depictions such as this. They are comfortable and are empowered by their sexuality. I wonder if it's a US thing that takes offense more easily.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I hate all of you people. We should be talking about how insanely good Karla is as an artist. Look at the fucking ravens in the healer Lili picture. How naturally the staircase slides up the hill to that wonderfully rendered but subtle castle in the background. Look at the way her necromancer lili uses everything from renaissance-informed to french academic composition patterns while remaining totally contemporary. It's fresh, but feels timeless. The way she layers silhouettes on flames on smoke to create distinct contrast without being distracting. Everything is deliberately placed with maximum consideration of eye flow for the viewer without giving off an impression of artificiality.

These are pieces cleverly designed for readability at the card level and the clearest storytelling possible at full scale. Karla exemplifies every ideal as an illustrator, and these pieces demonstrate why she's the darling of the industry.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't follow, what do you mean here? (This is ignoring the fact that it's also not correct, but for the sake of discussion let's say it is)

Yeah looking through the list above it was a hasty generalization. Its really just Liliana and the Innistrad vampires, and invoking the classic vampire mythology is as good of a justification for that sort of thing as you're going to get.

With that said, if there was a disproportionate black sexuality association, I would have a problem with it because of the associations between open sexuality with corruption and amorality are an actual problem in the real world (plus, if anything, it makes more sense in red and green than anywhere else, the two colors that are most about being in touch with your true self without inhibitions)

 

[divisionbyzorro]

My gf grew up in France where people wouldn't bat an eye over sexualized depictions such as this. They are comfortable and are empowered by their sexuality. I wonder if it's a US thing that takes offense more easily.

A point well taken. In general, the levels of what are and are not "offensive" regarding sexual and violent depictions vary wildly across the globe, and even within the U.S.

I've lived in two places in my life: Texas, and Australia. I highly doubt Australia cares about Liliana. Texas certainly does. I don't think either place is "right" or "wrong," but I will say that I saw more women playing Magic in Australia than I have in Texas, so...I guess that means something? Or not? I don't know.

 

[ultron87]

Meanwhile, this Jace art is the worst.

 

[WanderingWind]

Yeah looking through the list above it was a hasty generalization. Its really just Liliana and the Innistrad vampires, and invoking the classic vampire mythology is as good of a justification for that sort of thing as you're going to get.

With that said, if there was a disproportionate black sexuality association, I would have a problem with it because of the associations between open sexuality with corruption and amorality are an actual problem in the real world (plus, if anything, it makes more sense in red and green than anywhere else, the two colors that are most about being in touch with your true self without inhibitions)

Ah. Well, yeah, obviously I would agree that art depicting sex as immoral is bad. I love sex. I will never in my life understand dudes who go out of their way to shame women for loving it too. (Not saying that this is happening here, mind you.)

I can't believe we're having this discussion

Magic cards are srs business.

 

[The Technomancer]

There are so many White and Asian (Eastern mostly) Magic players but I rarely see any Black Magic players. If I see any at a LGS they are usually there for Yu-Gi-Oh or boardgames. I always thought it was weird and I remember even talking to Cedric Phillips about it. I think we came to the conclusion that socioeconomics probably has a big deal to do with it. With regard to female players and as to why there are so few, I think its way more likely that the player base is more off-putting than any element of the card game and talking to some of them over the years has kind of reinforced that notion.

My store tends to draw a bit more of the university crowd, so it pulls some of the well off black students and the foreign exchange students.

Its also like the only store I've ever been in that's put enough of an attempt into interior design to make me actually want to spend time there, instead of playing on plastic tables on an off-color carpet. Seriously look at this place:

(there are like, no good photos of it)

 

[WanderingWind]

I would pay crazy money for a library card catalog for my card storage. They're unpossible to find now though.

 

[The Technomancer]

Meanwhile, this Jace art is the worst.

Yeah what the fuck? I didn't notice anyone comment before on how Jace looks like a hero from "the BIG new action fantasy GAME that everyone is playing CLICK HERE"

 

["God's Beard!"]

Man, I'm just glad Karla still has room in her schedule to bless Wizards of the Coast with some quality art.

I've talked to people who get to design dinosaurs for Jurassic Park that wished they were as cool as Karla Ortiz. I've read interviews from other Magic artists who said their favorite artist was Karla Ortiz. The director of illustration at my school told us at the end of our final class to go out into the world and become the next Karla Ortiz.

For an artist who isn't even 30 to have already reached the summit of worldwide success in Illustration is as inspiring as it is frightening. The fact that I've missed two chances to meet up and hang out with her to pick her brain depresses me.

 

[Crocodile]

It has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate. Every person, organization, corporation, etc, is judged by by their outliers and by experiences that we have with them that may not be representative of the whole. I'll pick on Chik-Fil-A here for a second. These guys have the most courteous staff of any fast-food restaurant I've ever been to. They give their entire organization an entire day off once a week at the expense of profit. They donate relentlessly to local communities.

And then they donate money towards inhibiting the legalization of gay marriage, and suddenly they're completely evil.

I'm not telling you whether or not its wrong for you to think that Chik-Fil-A is a good company or not. But you can't deny that one action completely changed the way they were perceived by the nation, despite the fact that the rest of their organization was completely unchanged.

I get the general point you're trying to make but actively trying to infringe on the rights/freedoms of human beings =/= a sexy fantasy character in a fantasy game. I kind of want to just roll my eyes over this comparison.

I can totally appreciate somebody thinking Liliana isn't their cup of tea but if you look at Liliana together with Elspeth, Tamiyo, Chandra, Yasova, Narset, Thalia, Alesha, etc. and come away with the opinion that Magic is "a game for only teenage boys" I just don't think that's a fair, reasonable or informed opinion.

Meanwhile, this Jace art is the worst.

I hereby dub him "Babbiest Jace"

My store tends to draw a bit more of the university crowd, so it pulls some of the well off black students and the foreign exchange students.

Its also like the only store I've ever been in that's put enough of an attempt into interior design to make me actually want to spend time there, instead of playing on plastic tables on an off-color carpet. Seriously look at this place:

(there are like, no good photos of it)

It's hard to tell how big that store is but it does look pretty swanky

 

[bigkrev]

Yeah what the fuck? I didn't notice anyone comment before on how Jace looks like a hero from "the BIG new action fantasy GAME that everyone is playing CLICK HERE"

I'm waiting for Kate Upton, dressed as an even sluttier version of Liliana, to show up and ask me if I want to play the game

 

[Socat]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151280960]I hate all of you people. We should be talking about how insanely good Karla is as an artist. Look at the fucking ravens in the healer Lili picture. How naturally the staircase slides up the hill to that wonderfully rendered but subtle castle in the background. Look at the way her necromancer lili uses everything from renaissance-informed to french academic composition patterns while remaining totally contemporary. It's fresh, but feels timeless. The way she layers silhouettes on flames on smoke to create distinct contrast without being distracting. Everything is deliberately placed with maximum consideration of eye flow for the viewer without giving off an impression of artificiality.

These are pieces cleverly designed for readability at the card level and the clearest storytelling possible at full scale. Karla exemplifies every ideal as an illustrator, and these pieces demonstrate why she's the darling of the industry.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post. If this is gonna be the discussion for a while, I guess I should check out of the thread for a while. Half of the time when I'm playing, I only care to look at the text box of the card, but that's me.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm waiting for Kate Upton, dressed as an even sluttier version of Liliana, to show up and ask me if I want to play the game

NO GIRLS ALLOWED

 

[Crocodile]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151280960]I hate all of you people. We should be talking about how insanely good Karla is as an artist. Look at the fucking ravens in the healer Lili picture. How naturally the staircase slides up the hill to that wonderfully rendered but subtle castle in the background. Look at the way her necromancer lili uses everything from renaissance-informed to french academic composition patterns while remaining totally contemporary. It's fresh, but feels timeless. The way she layers silhouettes on flames on smoke to create distinct contrast without being distracting. Everything is deliberately placed with maximum consideration of eye flow for the viewer without giving off an impression of artificiality.

These are pieces cleverly designed for readability at the card level and the clearest storytelling possible at full scale. Karla exemplifies every ideal as an illustrator, and these pieces demonstrate why she's the darling of the industry.[/QUOTE]

The art being good is so obvious there isn't much left to discuss on that vantage point

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's not even like you guys are having a legitimate discussion, though. "How sexy is too sexy" isn't a real debate.

 

[kirblar]

There are so many White and Asian (Eastern mostly) Magic players but I rarely see any Black Magic players. If I see any at a LGS they are usually there for Yu-Gi-Oh or boardgames. I always thought it was weird and I remember even talking to Cedric Phillips about it. I think we came to the conclusion that socioeconomics probably has a big deal to do with it. With regard to female players and as to why there are so few, I think its way more likely that the player base is more off-putting than any element of the card game and talking to some of them over the years has kind of reinforced that notion.

Definitely socioeconomic, but I have no idea what's causing the gap. I wonder if WotC ever did market research into it. YGO definitely hit the "Anime" crowd due to the TV show while MTG initially hit more of a traditional RPG/tabletop crowd at first, and MTG definitely gets a lot of "level ups" from YGO once they get sick of the boom/bust economy.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151282829]It's not even like you guys are having a legitimate discussion, though. "How sexy is too sexy" isn't a real debate.[/QUOTE]
The only time it's been too sexy: when Liliana got put on a PT T-Shirt. That was awkward.

 

[The Technomancer]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151282829]It's not even like you guys are having a legitimate discussion, though. "How sexy is too sexy" isn't a real debate.[/QUOTE]

There's a broader valid discussion of how women are represented in "geek" media for sure. Where it gets thorny here is that Magic is otherwise normally so good about this thing that it then becomes a question of "well if the sexuality is not a disproportionate problem, is there still an inherent problem?"

 

[WanderingWind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151282829]It's not even like you guys are having a legitimate discussion, though. "How sexy is too sexy" isn't a real debate.[/QUOTE]

One conversation that doesn't revolve around GB's pro points, and this is what we get? FINE GB HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

 

[The Technomancer]

Definitely socioeconomic, but I have no idea what's causing the gap. I wonder if WotC ever did market research into it. YGO definitely hit the "Anime" crowd due to the TV show while MTG initially hit more of a traditional RPG/tabletop crowd at first, and MTG definitely gets a lot of "level ups" from YGO once they get sick of the boom/bust economy.

I've actually been looking over recent YGO releases out of boredom the last week or so, since I haven't played in over a decade, and the game seems to have gone even harder into tutoring and card advantage strategies. On the surface it looks like it creates an enviornment of linear combo decks, but I can't even imagine how it is to play these days

 

["God's Beard!"]

One conversation that doesn't revolve around GB's pro points, and this is what we get? FINE GB HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

Sweet. Last GP I got zero Pro Points, so that brings my lifetime total up to zero Pro Points ^_^

Try filling dead air with THAT information, Rich Hagon!

 

[bigkrev]

There are so many White and Asian (Eastern mostly) Magic players but I rarely see any Black Magic players. If I see any at a LGS they are usually there for Yu-Gi-Oh or boardgames. I always thought it was weird and I remember even talking to Cedric Phillips about it. I think we came to the conclusion that socioeconomics probably has a big deal to do with it. With regard to female players and as to why there are so few, I think its way more likely that the player base is more off-putting than any element of the card game and talking to some of them over the years has kind of reinforced that notion.

Yeah, at my LGS, we almost never have any black players for FNM. I'd say the Saturday YGO tournaments are close to 50% Black guys though.

Weiss Schwartz is probably the most ethnically diverse crowd at my LGS (granted, they struggle to get 8 people most weeks). Asians, Latinos, African-Americans, Whites, ect. Granted, I've never seen a girl playing that game (YGO and Magic both have a handful of girls most of the time).

 

[Socat]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151282829]It's not even like you guys are having a legitimate discussion, though. "How sexy is too sexy" isn't a real debate.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly. I really believe it has to do with US views versus how the rest of the world views things.

 

[WanderingWind]

All jokes aside, I think it's a legit conversation. Nerd culture has a ton of problems with things outside of their individual bubbles and stuff like this is good to air out every so often. I mean, you can't be serious all the time about your fake magic faerie and elf cards, but at some point the fantasy shit butts against real world issues.

Now, if we ever get to the point where it's all we talk about, I'll peace out for sure, but I don't think that'll happen. We got spoilers to whine about and baseless speculation to throw about.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The biggest problem with the LoV art is that Lili doesn't fit to scale with the rest of the background. Just look at her compared to the stairs. What the heck?

Look at how embedded Teysa is in this Karla Ortiz art. Highly readable portrait, with a lot of depth despite being relatively focused. Teysa feels like part of the world in the picture. I don't need to go on again about Karla's excellent framing and contrast choices.

Whereas the Steve Argyle stuff just feels like an awkward painting out of his head stuck on a random background. There was a demonstration I got once. An artist went through his process and talked about how the painting of a girl standing in one of his comic panels looked strange until he hired a model, took photographs and repainted it. He found out a lot about how he forgets to consider the character's weight and sense of balance when the feet are cropped off.

Steve Argyle's Liliana looks more like the before image from that demo than the after one.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The only time it's been too sexy: when Liliana got put on a PT T-Shirt. That was awkward.

If you're too embarrassed to put the thing on a t-shirt, you should be too embarrassed to have it on a Magic card. At least, that's how I feel about it.

I get the general point you're trying to make but actively trying to infringe on the rights/freedoms of human beings =/= a sexy fantasy character in a fantasy game. I kind of want to just roll my eyes over this comparison.

My first example that I deleted was a theoretical doctor who spends his life in Africa, then comes home and murders somebody. That seemed too trite. My second example was going to be about vaccinations, but I really didn't want to get into that because I'm so militantly-pro-vaccine (my daughter has CVID - don't even start with me) that I couldn't even make myself write something event remotely unbiased. I didn't want to spend too much more time on it so I just ended with Chik-Fil-A.

The idea is sound though. If you think a thing is bad, and someone that you otherwise like does that thing, your opinion of that person is forever changed. How it changes your relationship with that person is of course up to you.

All jokes aside, I think it's a legit conversation. Nerd culture has a ton of problems with things outside of their individual bubbles and stuff like this is good to air out every so often. I mean, you can't be serious all the time about your fake magic faerie and elf cards, but at some point the fantasy shit butts against real world issues.

Now, if we ever get to the point where it's all we talk about, I'll peace out for sure, but I don't think that'll happen. We got spoilers to whine about and baseless speculation to throw about.

I for one find this discussion far more interesting and enlightening than yet another "Modern Pro Tour results are in, let's swing the banhammer!!!!" debate.

 

[WanderingWind]

Well, yeah, Karla is a BAMF.

 

[bigkrev]

BTW, Maro's article today highlights the single best reason it's unlikely for Magic Origins to have double faced cards- they are really confusing with Manifest

 

[kirblar]

If you're too embarrassed to put the thing on a t-shirt, you should be too embarrassed to have it on a Magic card.

Just because I don't think sexy = bad, doesn't mean that I won't be judged by other people who do.

 

[OnPoint]

Why can't you guys just copy and paste a link in when you talk about articles lol It's consistent throughout the thread

Maro's article: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/manifest-destiny-2015-02-09

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Just because I don't think sexy = bad, doesn't mean that I won't be judged by other people who do.

The continued emphasis on Liliana as a sexual object for teenage boys is exactly the type of thing that makes me embarrassed to publicly admit my love for Magic.

What you're saying is what I've been getting at from the beginning (while apparently doing a really bad job of expressing it).

I just genuinely believe there's a way to keep your artistic integrity and tell the same story, while making it in a way that's not going to evoke the same level of external judgement. And I just don't buy that since 99% of Magic doesn't do this that I should ignore the 1% that does.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Speaking of, most cheesy-shirt-worthy card art?

I nominate shambleshark:

Although there's always the classic:

 

[kirblar]

Just for reference re: my Splinter Twin stance- I've wanted it gone for nearly two years now: https://kirblar024.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/grand-prix-kc-modern-postmortem/

edit: Turns out the commentary was still a problem then too.

 

[Crocodile]

Definitely socioeconomic, but I have no idea what's causing the gap. I wonder if WotC ever did market research into it. YGO definitely hit the "Anime" crowd due to the TV show while MTG initially hit more of a traditional RPG/tabletop crowd at first, and MTG definitely gets a lot of "level ups" from YGO once they get sick of the boom/bust economy.

Amusingly enough, whenever I go to a LGS, if I see a group of Black players I don't know, their topic of conversation as some point will ALWAYS come around to Dragon Ball Z if I stick around long enough - WITHOUT fail. The consistency of this fact in my experience has been pretty hilarious

I also assume/joke to myself that a lot of people leave YGO eventually because their eyes deteriorate with age to the point where they can't read the cards. The text on those cards is SO FUCKING SMALL O_O

My first example that I deleted was a theoretical doctor who spends his life in Africa, then comes home and murders somebody. That seemed too trite. My second example was going to be about vaccinations, but I really didn't want to get into that because I'm so militantly-pro-vaccine (my daughter has CVID - don't even start with me) that I couldn't even make myself write something event remotely unbiased. I didn't want to spend too much more time on it so I just ended with Chik-Fil-A.

The idea is sound though. If you think a thing is bad, and someone that you otherwise like does that thing, your opinion of that person is forever changed. How it changes your relationship with that person is of course up to you.

So now instead of working to deny human rights/freedoms we've moved on to murder? Yeah......these comparisons still aren't helping because they are so goddamn outlandish. The "bad apple" maxim makes sense when that "one thing" is INCREDIBLY offensive and/or immoral not when its one sexy character within a framework of lots of non-sexy characters in a card game LOL. You're not going to get sympathy with these examples.

 

[The Technomancer]

I also assume/joke to myself that a lot of people leave YGO eventually because their eyes deteriorate with age to the point where they can't read the cards. The text on those cards is SO FUCKING SMALL O_O

Oh yeah jesus fuck. Talk about complexity at all rarities

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So now instead of working to deny human rights/freedoms we've moved on to murder? Yeah......these comparisons still aren't helping because they are so goddamn outlandish. The "bad apple" maxim makes sense when that "one thing" is INCREDIBLY offensive and/or immoral not when its one sexy character within a framework of lots of non-sexy characters in a card game LOL. You're not going to get sympathy with these examples.

There's a reason I deleted those for being worse comparisons

And I simply don't buy your argument. If someone finds a thing offensive, it doesn't matter that the thing is in the minority of other things. Especially when you consider that the thing we're talking about here is a planeswalker - one of the faces of the entire product. I'm not comparing "sexy Liliana" to "murder;" I'm comparing "a wealth of good" to "a modicum of bad" (by volume, not necessarily by magnitude I suppose).

Anyone who genuinely believes that Liliana is not going to turn some number of people away from the game simply hasn't met those people yet. If you want to tell me that you simply don't find their opinion to be relevant and you don't care that they won't ever play Magic, then fine - I'll accept that. But I could literally name names of people who I play board games with who I know would otherwise love Magic, but I won't ever introduce them to it because I know they would find that exact thing offputting. And that makes me sad.

EDIT: And this will (hopefully) be the last I say about it. Just know that I seem to care so much about this because it makes me sad that people I consider friends will be unable to appreciate Magic because of a thing that it does that I don't think does anything to improve the overall quality. A stylistic choice was made; had it been made differently, those people would almost certainly play the game.

 

[Haly]

When I mention object vs non-object I'm usually looking for agency, power, independence, how their attire ties into what we know about the character, etc. In most respects, Liliana comes out positively across those metrics. I think "ignoring the lore" is something that straight up can't or shouldn't be done. This is a woman who made a deal with demons to preserve her beauty and youth. Her sexuality as part of her character is a relevant aspect of her character that has been discussed in the wider Magic literature and has come up occasionally in flavor text (to my recollection I may want to double check) and what not. I don't think it has been expressed in every single card (or needs to be) but it plays into the obvious "Vamp" archetype she is derived from - WOTC again has made it clear that trying to stick to resonant flavor (tropes and themes that the wider audience may be familiar with) has been successful for them as they don't want Kamigawa II: Electric Bugaloo along that axis.

I'm glad you brought this up because I was thinking along the same lines. Let's assume that her sexuality is an important part of her character and not merely marketing. Wouldn't we see this in her cards? Look at all the cards with Jace and Elspeth in them. Jace gets cards with names like Ingenuity, Mind Sculpt, and Uncovered Clues. His subtitles are The Mind Sculptor, Architect of Thought, Memory Adept. Everything about him screams blue manipulator. I won't go through Elspeth but her cards tell a similarly detailed story of who she is. Sorin, Garruk, Chandra. They all have their personalities expressed through non planeswalker cards.

What about Liliana? I've already touched on Endless Obedience and Lilliana's Caress, but that is the extent of it. Otherwise she raises zombies, and kills things. Her thematic elements are death and undeath. Only in the art of Demonic Tutor is your image of her really evident. One of my favorite black cards, flavorwise, is Macabre Waltz. Wouldn't that be a great card to let Lilliana show off her sexual side? But cards like Macabre Waltz just seem absent from her history.

My conclusion that Wizard's design for her is more sexual object than sexual person stems from the fact that if it wasn't true, then it'd come across in her cards like it does for every other planeswalker. But her sexuality seems to be confined to art, so it exists a purely superficial level. Either this is extremely deep and nuanced commentary by Wizards (very doubtful given their history of commendable yet heavy handed blending of lore mechanics) or she's just fanservice.

(Also I think its a mistake to pull cards from the entire history, because the game had changed art directors a few times and a style guide didn't always exist. You'll note, however, that most of the modern ones all fit into the temptress template, except for Anafenza.)

 

[kirblar]

It's the red problem- non-Anger emotions are very difficult to get across given that the game is about combat. Lust/sexuality certainly plays in that area.

 

[Haly]

On that note, I think they can recontexualize betrayal effects as lust effects on occasion. And let mind control bleed into black because that is what seduction indirectly achieves. Or make it come across more in reanimation. They'd have to print more reanimation first though and I don't think they want to.

 

[Crocodile]

I mean I'm able to respect informed and reasonable opinions even if I don't agree with them. Like I have not and will not begrudge you or Haly or whoever for not liking Liliana or her representation. However, if somebody sees Liliana and ONLY Liliana and is turned off from Magic because they assume all of Magic is like that, that's not an opinion I respect because its not an informed opinion. If somebody sees Liliana AND Elspeth, Yasova, Alesha, Thalia, Narset, all the female warriors/soldiers/knights/etc. amongst modern Magic sets and STILL says fuck Magic SOLELY due to Liliana, that doesn't strike as reasonable. Now I say this being cognizant that as a heterosexual male I'm speaking from a position of privilege (at least along this particular axis) and I'm sure you have some anecdotal evidence in support of what you say but then again I have opposing anecdotal evidence - but that's the problem with anecdotal evidence isn't it?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

On that note, I think they can recontexualize betrayal effects as lust effects on occasion. And let mind control bleed into black because that is what seduction indirectly achieves. Or make it come across more in reanimation. They'd have to print more reanimation first thigh and I don't think they want to.

There is a black Mind Control already (Enslave). It definitely could be emphasized there more.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's the red problem- non-Anger emotions are very difficult to get across given that the game is about combat. Lust/sexuality certainly plays in that area.

I think they could find ways to represent emotions more in red. I think the problem is that a lot of the solutions I can think of already mechanically belong to other colors, especially green and blue

 

["God's Beard!"]

Speaking of informed opinions, can someone help me with my Reanimator list? I'm not a great Legacy player so a second opinion would help. Right now it's an amalgam of different lists:

Creatures(7):

• 4 Griselbro
• 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
• 1 Tidespout Tyrant
• 1 Sire of Insanity

Spells(33):

• 4 Daze
• 4 Force of Will
• 4 Brainstorm
• 4 Careful Study
• 2 Ponder
• 4 Entomb
• 4 Exhume
• 4 Reanimate
• 3 Dark Ritual

Artifacts/Enchantments(6):

• 4 Lotus Petal
• 2 Animate Dead

Land(14):

• 4 Polluted Delta
• 3 Bloodstained Mire
• 4 Underground Sea
• 2 Swamp
• 1 Island

Sideboard(15):

• 1 Misdirection
• 1 Pithing Needle
• 2 Flusterstorm
• 2 Show and Tell
• 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
• 1 Ashen Rider
• 4 Thoughtseize
• 2 Wipe Away
• 2 Swan Song

 

[Angry Grimace]

Liliana chat always turns into this so I'm glad I stayed out.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm glad you brought this up because I was thinking along the same lines. Let's assume that her sexuality is an important part of her character and not merely marketing. Wouldn't we see this in her cards? Look at all the cards with Jace and Elspeth in them. Jace gets cards with names like Ingenuity, Mind Sculpt, and Uncovered Clues. His subtitles are The Mind Sculptor, Architect of Thought, Memory Adept. Everything about him screams blue manipulator. I won't go through Elspeth but her cards tell a similarly detailed story of who she is. Sorin, Garruk, Chandra. They all have their personalities expressed through non planeswalker cards.

What about Liliana? I've already touched on Endless Obedience and Lilliana's Caress, but that is the extent of it. Otherwise she raises zombies, and kills things. Her thematic elements are death and undeath. Only in the art of Demonic Tutor is your image of her really evident. One of my favorite black cards, flavorwise, is Macabre Waltz. Wouldn't that be a great card to let Lilliana show off her sexual side? But cards like Macabre Waltz just seem absent from her history.

My conclusion that Wizard's design for her is more sexual object than sexual person stems from the fact that if it wasn't true, then it'd come across in her cards like it does for every other planeswalker. But her sexuality seems to be confined to art, so it exists a purely superficial level. Either this is extremely deep and nuanced commentary by Wizards (very doubtful given their history of commendable yet heavy handed blending of lore mechanics) or she's just fanservice.

(Also I think its a mistake to pull cards from the entire history, because the game had changed art directors a few times and a style guide didn't always exist. You'll note, however, that most of the modern ones all fit into the temptress template, except for Anafenza.)

Well I think Liliana of the Veil also works that angle though I agree the art is a bit wonky on that. There is a dominating and sadistic streak present in nearly all the flavor text she provides. A lot of it does come through the literature (books and stuff posted on the website). I also agree with Kirblar that in general emotions like love and lust are harder to show in the context of a battle game.

As for Black Female Magic Characters:
-Lyzolda and Exava aren't temptresses they are hedonists
-Marchesa and Teysa are politicians
-Sydri & the Sen Triplets are tech wizards
-Kaalia is all about righteous vengeance
-Triad of Fates = 3 Fates of Greek Mythology
-Vela the Night Clad has weird art but she is all about sabotage and subterfuge
-Braids is just crazy
-I don't think I need to say anymore about Anafensa

Like I feel I could go on. You really aren't being fair to the archetype variety present here and we are already excluding humanoid but non-human characters like Oona and Marleen who further argue against your point.

On that note, I think they can recontexualize betrayal effects as lust effects on occasion. And let mind control bleed into black because that is what seduction indirectly achieves. Or make it come across more in reanimation. They'd have to print more reanimation first though and I don't think they want to.

This is something I can get behind. Stuff like Sorin & Worst Fears plus Enslave and the ability to reanimate your opponents creatures shows there is logic in this. It can work even in Red which is supposed to be a passionate color.

Liliana chat always turns into this so I'm glad I stayed out.

It has to be better than "Oh a card/deck did well at a major Modern event, I guess we better ban it" talk right?

 

[Angry Grimace]

It has to be better than "Oh a card/deck did well at a major Modern event, I guess we better ban it" talk right?

No, that's at least an interesting thought experiment. Steve Argyle/Liliana Vess/of the Veil chat just turns into a barely-Magic discussion which goes around in circles over and over with people getting angry.