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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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Turn one Watery Grave -2 life
entomb for griselbrand
lotus petal, reanimate, -8 life
draw 7 cards - 7 life
opponent bolts you in response, yay you died!

If you had glorious $280 Underground Seas instead of $10 Watery Graves like the filthy poor you are, you'd have been at 2 life and the might of the Grisel would have carried you to victory. You would have even been able to pay for the Force of Will on your opponent's turn.

Two life is the real deal.
 

Hero

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151213526]Turn one Watery Grave -2 life
entomb for griselbrand
lotus petal, reanimate, -8 life
draw 7 cards - 7 life
opponent bolts you in response, yay you died!

If you had glorious $280 Underground Seas instead of $10 Watery Graves like the filthy poor you are, you'd have been at 2 life and the might of the Grisel would have carried you to victory. You would have even been able to pay for the Force of Will on your opponent's turn.

Two life is the real deal.[/QUOTE]

If you are playing Legacy with shocks you deserve it. Not to mention it's really hard to feel bad about someone losing with reanimator.
 

Crocodile

Member
There has to be some sort of consistent logic for dealing with bannings in the Modern format. It's not healthy for the format if every time a deck/card does well at all people are seriously considering if it should be banned. Does the format need more safety values in general? Follow Chapin logic and nix the Pro Tour?

Oppressive in terms of what? Popularity? Win %? I'd like to see some numbers but the deck has existed since Modern debuted and hasn't been touched. Do you really think it's fun or skill based to go land, land, land, flash creature of choice, untap and play another land cast Splinter Twin?

I mean that can and does happen but that doesn't describe most games in a Splinter Twin match since your opponent tends not to be a gold fish. "hurr durr no skill" doesn't come across as insightful commentary.

Well let's see, how can we make a card better than Thoughtseize.

- You can choose land cards
- You can pick two cards instead of just one
- No life loss. Hell, gain some life instead.

Thoughtseize is too good. It is the best 1CC discard spell in the game.

Not sure what that has to do with Splinter Twin being terrible for the format.

I think one can make an argument that Cabal Therapy is a stronger discard spell in some decks/matchups :p Yeah Thoughtseize is pretty damn good though :p

Double post:

The continued emphasis on Liliana as a sexual object for teenage boys is exactly the type of thing that makes me embarrassed to publicly admit my love for Magic.

What makes Liliana a sexual object (rather than a sexualized character who is cognizant of her sexuality and uses it)? Even looking at the art, its clear in the second picture that's she's in charge. Its an expression of power rather than something like servitude. Considering how good Magic is in general with their representation of females, I'm not sure I entirely understand the complaints about Liliana. Perhaps without ANY context I guess it can look a bit awkward but your argument can't be "no sexuality whatsoever" can it? The target audience of the game is more than elementary school students and tasteful sexuality is a normal part of fantasy and the human condition in general.
 
Hey do you guys think you could help me settle something? I was playing against my friends' mono green deck. I attacked and then played a card that gave my creatures protection from green. He countered with Terrifying Presence, which is a sweep to prevent combat damage except for target creature of his choice, but Terrifying Presence is a green card so I wasn't sure whether it would work against my protection from green.
 

ultron87

Member
Hey do you guys think you could help me settle something? I was playing against my friends' mono green deck. I attacked and then played a card that gave my creatures protection from green. He countered with Terrifying Presence, which is a sweep to prevent combat damage except for target creature of his choice, but Terrifying Presence is a green card so I wasn't sure whether it would work against my protection from green.
So Protection only stops thing from targeting, enchanting, blocking and damaging the protected things. Terrifying Presence is none of those things, so it would work just fine. Unless your opponent controlled no creatures, in which case he wouldn't be able to target any of your creatures with the spell and couldn't cast it at all unless he cast it in response to your protection spell.
 
So Protection only stops thing from targeting, enchanting, blocking and damaging the protected things. Terrifying Presence is none of those things, so it would work just fine. Unless your opponent controlled no creatures, in which case he wouldn't be able to target any of your creatures with the spell and couldn't cast it at all unless he cast it in response to your protection spell.
Ah ok I think I understand. Thanks for the clarification!
 

ElyrionX

Member
Yeah, casuals would hate this.

Here's a simpler version of where I'm coming from: I want to live in a world where blue answer decks are playable. I don't want to live in one where the best kill condition is Splinter Twin. I do not like these hybrid decks existing.

I want to live in this world too but banning Twin is probably not going to do it.

Unbanning JTMS, however, could be a way to shore up the control archetype which basically does not exist in Modern at this point in time.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Splinter Twin is a stupid card with a bullshit instant win combo, but I don't think its bannable at all.

2 card combo win just happens to be a feelbad.
 

ElyrionX

Member
All this talk of banning Twin is ridiculous. Just based on winning one PT? The Twin deck that won wasn't even in the top eight Modern decks. He got there only because his draft results carried him. In fact, there were zero Twin decks in the top 20 decks for the constructed portion of the event.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Just stop playing Modern to win, like I do. You play it for fun decks that don't involve dumb shit like Splinter Twin or Tarmogoyf.
 
I love Modern.

And the two decks I have played the most?
Twin and Junk

You all are talking about banning my beautiful babies!

If they do, fuck it I'm selling my cards and buying Chinese proxies and just have fun.

Keeping up with what gets banned or unbanned, especially with money invested in cards that I own, and dealer buyouts of cards I may want, really takes the fun out of the game for me.
 

ElyrionX

Member
Of the 64 decks that scored 19 points or more for the Modern portion of PT FRF, there were only 6 Twin decks. That is less than 10% of the field which means that Twin actually underperformed in the PT since around 12-13% of the players were on Twin.

What's that again about banning Twin?

In fact, WOTC needs to stop banning cards and start unbanning more of them (I'm only saying this because I really want to play with JTMS lol).
 

Hero

Member
Of the 64 decks that scored 19 points or more for the Modern portion of PT FRF, there were only 6 Twin decks. That is less than 10% of the field which means that Twin actually underperformed in the PT since around 12-13% of the players were on Twin.

What's that again about banning Twin?

In fact, WOTC needs to stop banning cards and start unbanning more of them (I'm only saying this because I really want to play with JTMS lol).

Popularity or archetype saturation is one reason to ban a card, not the only one.
 

ElyrionX

Member
Popularity or archetype saturation is one reason to ban a card, not the only one.

Then what are the other reasons?

You can argue that the format warps around Twin's turn four kill but then isn't that the stated objective of the format? To allow for cards that will result in consistent turn four kills and not any faster? Modern was virtually built around Twin. To ban Twin would be essentially saying that they want to rethink and revamp the entire format.
 
Problem is with Modern is they are constantly cutting down decks to play with the freaking bannings. If they would of unbanned JTMS(he wouldn't be broken in Modern. Doesn't have the support he had in Standard and in Legacy and Vintage.) you would probably see combo decks drop down and let other decks rise.
 
Man, swapping Legacy decks was definitely the right decision. This reanimator shit is absurd.

Opening hand:
  • Underground Sea
  • Entomb
  • Exhume
  • Dark Ritual
  • Lotus Petal
  • Force of Will
  • Ponder

I ended turn one with Griselbrand, Tidespout Tyrant and Sire of Insanity on the battlefield and my opponent at zero permanents and zero cards in hand.

Why the fuck was I playing Miracles?
 
http://killingagoldfish.blogspot.com/2015/02/kill-reviews-zendikar-block.html

Huh...yeah, I don't agree at all. Well, okay I agree that ZZZ limited was pretty trash and that Worldwake was, at best, generic, but his primary complaint is that the sets weren't "land heavy" enough?

The basic critiques of Zendikar:

  1. The draft format is terrible.
  2. The land focus isn't diverse enough.
  3. The overall format doesn't encourage enough interesting strategies or types of play.
  4. The block design is half-assed.
  5. There aren't enough lands that do interesting things.

I agree with 1-4 (Landfall isn't enough to be the only thing supporting a land theme and Worldwake is another pointless second set) but not 5 -- the two cycles of spell-effect lands are great and the man-lands are one of the better dual cycles. I also think he undervalues some of the other things that are good about the block, but overall if you have a competitive focus ZEN/WWK don't age as well as some of their neighbors.

277 cards = we have DFCs. Legends flipping into PWs.

The set size doesn't really support this (not saying it's impossible, but the set size isn't good evidence.) Innistrad was 264 to Scars' 249 -- fifteen extra cards for a set that had 20 DFCs added. Magic 2015 is 269 cards, so Origins is basically the same size.

I feel like there's a middle ground between BLM Lili wnd WHM Lili but they just have to make her go full Frazetta for the former.

The thing that frustrates me the most about this is that the first Liliana art is gorgeous and doesn't come off as sexualized at all -- it's the last time she really comes off as a badass, scary necromancer first and a sexy lady second at best.
 

kirblar

Member
Ah, I was using the 249 as reference, not 269 with the +20 cards. I searched the wrong set for reference, apparently. (M15) Both Lilianas being done by the same artist could indicate it's a flip though. (And they could certainly reduce the uncommon sheet back down if they felt it helped w/ limited play.) It's actually a 272 card set, not 277, they erred there in the initial announcement. +23 cards does make more sense than +3.
 

Maledict

Member
What makes Liliana a sexual object (rather than a sexualized character who is cognizant of her sexuality and uses it)? Even looking at the art, its clear in the second picture that's she's in charge. Its an expression of power rather than something like servitude. Considering how good Magic is in general with their representation of females, I'm not sure I entirely understand the complaints about Liliana. Perhaps without ANY context I guess it can look a bit awkward but your argument can't be "no sexuality whatsoever" can it? The target audience of the game is more than elementary school students and tasteful sexuality is a normal part of fantasy and the human condition in general.

This argument always slightly vexes me, because you can make it about almost any sexualised character... ;-). The problem with Liliana is that for some reason Wizards normal sensibilities about female characters go completely out of the window when it comes to black mana female characters: the infamous titmonster in from Innistrad being the case in point. Liliana in particular has a very bad history of being shown in a way where the entire purpose of her sexuality is to appeal to teenage boys - Liliana of the Veil is such a ridiculous picture killedagoldfish even wrote an article on it. Compare her first card to every image of her subsequently.

When you have interesting, good female characters in your game like Elspeth, Alesha and Chandra it's embarrassing to still have this one area where you revert back to fantasy art from 15 years ago. The fact that black mana female characters seem to show their power by getting their tits out and stripping is a really lazy, dumb way of showing something.
 
Man, I've never played a deck seriously with Daze in it before. It's really fun.

Have underground sea + island in play

cast entomb, daze it picking up the sea, tap island to pay for daze

replay sea for turn, cast reanimate

VALUE
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
This argument always slightly vexes me, because you can make it about almost any sexualised character... ;-). The problem with Liliana is that for some reason Wizards normal sensibilities about female characters go completely out of the window when it comes to black mana female characters: the infamous titmonster in from Innistrad being the case in point. Liliana in particular has a very bad history of being shown in a way where the entire purpose of her sexuality is to appeal to teenage boys - Liliana of the Veil is such a ridiculous picture killedagoldfish even wrote an article on it. Compare her first card to every image of her subsequently.

When you have interesting, good female characters in your game like Elspeth, Ashiok and Chandrasekhar it's embarrassing to still have this one area where you revert back to fantasy art from 15 years ago. The fact that black mana female characters seem to show their power by getting their tits out and stripping is a really lazy, dumb way of showing something.

Or, conversely, the fact that there is 1 sexualized woman Planeswalker shows this is a total non-issue. Whether some people want to admit it, there are people in the real world who revel in their sexuality and don't treat it like something to be ashamed or something to be hidden. Despite Argyle's legendarily bad LoV art, most of Lili's art has shown a figure of immense power. There is this undercurrent of "why can't women just cover up" when these types of topics are brought up and it's strange to me that this is seen as the moral high ground. The fact that you talk about "normal sensibilities" about "female" characters - revolving around a piece of art drawn by a woman, no less - is a bit odd to me.

Not to mention when it comes to a sexualized character, some are quick to want to have it dialed back to what they consider "normal sensibilities," yet this is a game with horrific dismemberments, bloodletting, decapitations, etc, etc. But god forbid there be a sexualized character in a game heavy with extremely violent adult content. Now, if every, or even a majority, of women characters in Magic were dressed like Witchblade, then there would be an issue to discuss. But, as you say, Chandra is fully dressed and is usually on fire, Elspeth is in full plate armor, Ashiok is genderless, Nissa is fully clothed, Tamiyo is too. So, of the Planeswalkers, there is exactly one sexualized character and even that seems to be too much for some people.
 

kirblar

Member
Or, conversely, the fact that there is 1 sexualized woman Planeswalker shows this is a total non-issue. Whether some people want to admit it, there are people in the real world who revel in their sexuality and don't treat it like something to be ashamed or something to be hidden. Despite Argyle's legendarily bad LoV art, most of Lili's art has shown a figure of immense power. There is this undercurrent of "why can't women just cover up" when these types of topics are brought up and it's strange to me that this is seen as the moral high ground. The fact that you talk about "normal sensibilities" about "female" characters - revolving around a piece of art drawn by a woman, no less - is a bit odd to me.

Not to mention when it comes to a sexualized character, some are quick to want to have it dialed back to what they consider "normal sensibilities," yet this is a game with horrific dismemberments, bloodletting, decapitations, etc, etc. But god forbid there be a sexualized character in a game heavy with extremely violent adult content. Now, if every, or even a majority, of women characters in Magic were dressed like Witchblade, then there would be an issue to discuss. But, as you say, Chandra is fully dressed and is usually on fire, Elspeth is in full plate armor, Ashiok is genderless, Nissa is fully clothed, Tamiyo is too. So, of the Planeswalkers, there is exactly one sexualized character and even that seems to be too much for some people.
Ding.
 

Maledict

Member
I'm slightly perplexed by how you turned my entire point of 'black mana female characters are always portrayed as evil temptresses' into something completely different.

Of course Liliana is the only female planes walker like that - she's the only black mana planes walker! The fact is that when it comes to black mana characters, Wizards only has one setting for showing them off - getting their boobs out and stripping. It's an incredibly lazy, stereotypical trope they could easily move on from.

And it's not just that awful Argyle art, it's *all* of her art barring the very first card they did of her.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Nothing to be "perplexed" about it if you read it. And your hangups remain evident "getting their boobs out and stripping?"
 
Or, conversely, the fact that there is 1 sexualized woman Planeswalker shows this is a total non-issue.

Well, I mean, what constitutes an issue? I don't think it's an issue in terms of being representative of Magic's depiction of women in general, because it's not really; Magic is mostly pretty good on this issue compared to other fantasy brands, and has improved over time to boot. I do think it's an issue in terms of making Liliana kind of lame and annoying.

And it's not just that awful Argyle art

It is really awful art, tho, especially compared to the way more decent illustration they announced Innistrad with:

666_heu2s44j9q.jpg
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
She's okay here:
It's probably better to show instead of tell I guess.


All four of the Avacyn angels have DD tits and thighhighs. They all show off their wonderful model figures in that pose where women arch themselves back and pull up their legs ever so slightly to show off all the goods.

But you know, those are actually minor details. Each of the angels has something going on that draws your attention first, and then, once you look closer, you notice they're all smang-worthy. Avacyn and Bruna has their spears, Sigarda and Gisela have wicked halos. They're angels before they're hot women (okay maybe not Bruna).

This is not true of Liliana, and hasn't been true of her since her very first incarnation, as Charlequin pointed out. The less said about Argyle the better, so let's look at Dark Realms, and then Ortiz' Lili. The first thing you notice about her is that she's not wearing much. Oh, she has some kamehameha thing going on in her hands but that seems like an afterthought. Her head is very small, frighteningly so. As is her waist. Frankly, there's not much to the art aside from her body... and the strange leather-y clothing. This isn't really a matter of "female character who's comfortable in her sexuality" but "cameraman making sure to capture her tits and abdomen".

You can make an argument that they're using the art to showcase this "sexual" side of her (a side that doesn't really come up in the fiction, for some reason?), but I highly doubt most Magic players are up to date on their lore and DailyMTG short stories. They look at Lili and they'll see a hot girl. Wizards knows this, and tells their artists to appeal to this market specifically. There can be all sorts of reasons for why Lili never seems to wear very much, but they all seem to be circumstantial.

While we're on the topic, I'd like to point to Endless Obedience (above) and Liliana's Caress.
These are both cards with effects and names that would work well with her purported "strong female character who's unafraid to flaunt her sexuality" theme, but this element is notably absent from both these cards. Thus, I can't take seriously the idea that Wizards wants Liliana to be a person who celebrates her sexuality. Or if it is, it's minor enough to not be worth enforcing for non-premier cards, aka, planeswalkers.

Onto Ortiz' new Lili.


Clearly, she's following the style guide, because Lili's wearing the same outfit she wore at the end of Innistrad. I don't care to speculate on Ortiz's intentions because that's just rude, so I'll just talk about the piece itself. First, the camera is zoomed out, like for the AVR angels, and yet, it's impossible not to notice her bare skin. The contrast between her skin and her clothing demands it. The background is a gray, nondescript setting of fire and destruction, all of which makes her body pop out more. For stage props, we have these truly thirsty zombies that likely represent the game's male, tweenage audience as they ogle and hoverhand Lili. Come to think of it, this art would be really good for Endless Obedience, much better than the original was, which brings me to my next point.

Whatever Ortiz' own tastes, it's pretty obvious that the commission specifically asked for these zombies, Female necromancers as "mother/dominatrix" is a pretty common trope in fantasy, and this is what they were trying to evoke here. I think this one leans firmly toward the dominatrix side. Why? Replace Liliana with a real model, and the zombies with real dudes (note how none of them look even vaguely female). What do you see? A beer ad. She could be holding a can of Bud Light during the Superbowl.

This, I imagine, is the thing that really rustles people's jimmies: the way Liliana is just consistently conceived of as a model instead of a black mage. Or rather, that "black female mage" seems to be synonymous with model in Wizards' visual design dictionary. There's nothing wrong with this in a vacuum, but when you look at how often they're equating the "corruption" aspect of black with "sexuality", and applying that connection almost exclusively to females (Tasigur being a notable recent exception), well, that paints a different picture doesn't it? We all know where the idea of "corruption = sex" came from, and its origins aren't women friendly at all.

For the record, I like Ortiz' painting a lot. It's gorgeous, evocative and I can tell she went out of her way not to draw Liliana with a wasp thin waist and a xylophone rib cage. Ortiz's Lili probably eats full, hearty meals in between subjugating backwards peasant villages. But the powers that be demand Lili be a sex symbol and a sex symbol is ultimately what she drew.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
They look at Lili and they'll see a hot girl. Wizards knows this, and tells their artists to appeal to this market specifically. There can be all sorts of reasons for why Lili never seems to wear very much, but they all seem to be circumstantial.

These are both cards with effects and names that would work well with her purported "strong female character who's unafraid to flaunt her sexuality" theme, but this element is notably absent from both these cards.

Thus, I can't take seriously the idea that Wizards wants Liliana to be some sexually charged character. Or if it is, it's minor enough to not be worth enforcing for non-premier cards, aka, planeswalkers.

Clearly, she's following the style guide, because Lili's wearing the same outfit she wore at the end of Innistrad.

But the powers that be demand Lili be a sex symbol and a sex symbol is ultimately what she drew.

Everything you wrote disagrees with the bold. There is zero doubt that WotC has designed her to be sexually charged. There isn't anything to take serious or disagree with in that statement. She's scantily clad, she's got the rough same design (style guide) that is sent down by WotC and she's one of the five major faces of the entire game.

Everything else you wrote is a subjective opinion, which is fine. We can disagree all day whether or not it's good for the game, but for the discussion to hold any weight whatsover, it just has to be framed honestly. If you're (not Haly, royal you) opposed to Lili being drawn as a sexual character, then just say so, instead of attaching all sorts of blatantly incorrect and borderline gender policing crap to it.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Let me clarify, I was thinking of this when I wrote that precise sentence:
What makes Liliana a sexual object (rather than a sexualized character who is cognizant of her sexuality and uses it)?
That is, when you draw the line between sexual characters and sexual objects, Liliana, for me, firmly falls on the side of objects. I did a little more digging and found Ortiz's other necromancer lady.
Same idea as her new Lili. Cute black mage raising ghouls. Her blackened bridal wear accentuates her femininity, without needing to show off tits and thigh (there's not a lot of ass in Magic, now that I think about it), but she doesn't need to show nearly as much skin as Lili to achieve the same effect.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Well, that's my point, innit? Gissa is not Lili. Lili is an established character who happens to be sexual in nature. Gissa is not. Not every character has to follow puritanical value sets. It becomes a legitimate problem when every character begins to look alike, or even a vast majority of them begin to look like something drawn up by a Playboy airbrush artist. Having some characters - and no doubt Magic has gotten better at showing more women not be sexualized over the past decade - sexualized isn't bad. Unless, of course, you view women's sexuality as something that has to be constrained to fit within your own personal "normal standards."

I don't follow your line for what you consider "objects" versus "character" to be quite frank. I feel like this is a point that maybe needs a bit expanding on, because the definition likely isn't as clear as it seems in your head. Not denigrating you, I think we all have our own internal measurement for what crosses certain lines.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
All politics aside, that still remains a spectacularly bad piece of art. Lower body moving forward, upper body turning, shoulders turning independently of her breasts, head turning oddly downward...it's just a hot mess.
 

kirblar

Member
All politics aside, that still remains a spectacularly bad piece of art. Lower body moving forward, upper body turning, shoulders turning independently of her breasts, head turning oddly downward...it's just a hot mess.
Holy crap I had always assumed that was her left leg.

Between this and Olivia no wonder they sacked the art director a few years back.
 
I prefer the detailing on her clothes in the original artwork. More bling makes her look more evil.

Incidentally, it's hardly a hot mess. Boobs are maybe a bit much, but like... I think it's fine. I think there's a bit of oversensitivity to this in Magic because of how male-dominated Magic is. But like, compared to other media, Magic's pretty much squarely average in sexualisation depictions of women. Probably even lower than average
 
It doesn't matter how good Magic is on average (or even in majority) when it comes to female depictions. It doesn't matter how much evidence I have to defend the game as being progressive. It doesn't matter what the storyline dictates in terms of character development. It's not enough for the game to have good examples of quality female depictions, but it must also be devoid of bad examples, or at least be showing growth. The fact that they keep choosing to make these depictions of Liliana the face of the product makes recent progressive steps look like token gestures.

Don't we want this game to be open and accepting to all players? We've had a problem with being open to female players for a very long time, but it's been getting better. But what do I say; "Oh, in Theros and Khans the female characters are great, but in this set we're just going to ogle Liliana?"

I completely understand why they chose to show Liliana as the initial face of the set. Her transformation is stunning. The first piece is gorgeous; she looks so innocent, which makes the follow up so striking. In that sense the second piece works - it's incredible, in fact, when paired together. It really makes you wonder "what happened," which is exactly what they're going for.

And then you start to look at the second piece, with savage mindless men clawing at her and pointing at her body on display for the viewer. "Look at me, boys, but don't touch! *wink*" And then you realize that the art director, story director, and artist could have told the same story without objectifying her for the viewer. We all know that players appreciate the game for different reasons - many players don't know the stories at all (mostly because for all their attempts, Wizards sucks at storytelling). That artwork does not tell that story to someone who's not entrenched.

Do you really think that a potential new player sees Liliana and thinks "Oh, this is a powerful necromancer whose sexuality is a core component of her character and who uses others for her own benefit?" Or do they think "Oh look, tits. I guess this game is for teenage boys who don't know better."

And here's the thing - you can do sexy without being classless. It was the teenage me who thought that tits hanging out were sexy. What 30-year-old me finds sexy is being confident, holding eye contact, and just the tiniest of teases.

To put it simply: Liliana reeks of being drawn for early teens who think that watching porn makes them "adult."

Or maybe I'm just a grumpy old man already.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I dunno, but when you start with "it doesn't matter what the evidence is" and how card art must be devoid of any "bad" examples of women you sort of lost me. Talk about tokenism...every woman must fit under a certain umbrella, because if they don't then All Women are now represented by the one depiction that some view as "bad."

It does matter what the evidence shows, because it shows that Magic's art directors are comfortable showing men and women from all ends of the spectrum. Some women are fully armored, some are dressed like a normal villager, some are dressed like they're going to a ball, etc. There is no unified "Magic Woman Template" and that's a great thing.

Again, the artist here is a woman, so who are we, as dudes to tell her that her own depiction is a "bad" example of a powerful woman? Is she not allowed to define the character? We've seen plenty of Lili art that is far, far less sexualized, so clearly there is no grand "make her Franzetta-style" at play here. A woman is allowed to be sexy, exhibit sexiness or show it in a fictional status and do so without having guys telling her that it's "bad."
 
Do you really think that a potential new player sees Liliana and thinks "Oh, this is a powerful necromancer whose sexuality is a core component of her character and who uses others for her own benefit?" Or do they think "Oh look, tits. I guess this game is for teenage boys who don't know better."

I feel like the first reaction is the far more likely one, so I think your point here is kind of diluted. Her breasts aren't even all that prominent in this picture.

Honestly, I read the reactions here before actually seeing this latest artwork so I was expecting something far more risque. This picture is downright tame. Eternal Witness is more scantily clad.


And here's the thing - you can do sexy without being classless. It was the teenage me who thought that tits hanging out were sexy. What 30-year-old me finds sexy is being confident, holding eye contact, and just the tiniest of teases.

To put it simply: Liliana reeks of being drawn for early teens who think that watching porn makes them "adult."

Or maybe I'm just a grumpy old man already.

However 'bad' the LotV artwork is in terms of anatomical correctness, are you trying to tell me that in that artwork, she doesn't look confident, she's not making eye contact, or she's not being teasing? All three of those qualifications are being met in most artwork that exists of her out there.

The only reason Liliana isn't a role model is because she's cruel and evil. It makes perfect sense for a black mana character to use whatever means are within his or her power to subjugate and domineer over others, including their very own sexuality.

And if you don't want people to think that your hobby is designed for teenage boys, you should probably start lobbying against the whole dragon, vampire, elf, fairy, magic powers thing first. That's a far bigger offender in that category.
 
I dunno, but when you start with "it doesn't matter what the evidence is" and how card art must be devoid of any "bad" examples of women you sort of lost me. Talk about tokenism...every woman must fit under a certain umbrella, because if they don't then All Women are now represented by the one depiction that some view as "bad."

It does matter what the evidence shows, because it shows that Magic's art directors are comfortable showing men and women from all ends of the spectrum. Some women are fully armored, some are dressed like a normal villager, some are dressed like they're going to a ball, etc. There is no unified "Magic Woman Template" and that's a great thing.

Again, the artist here is a woman, so who are we, as dudes to tell her that her own depiction is a "bad" example of a powerful woman? Is she not allowed to define the character? We've seen plenty of Lili art that is far, far less sexualized, so clearly there is no grand "make her Franzetta-style" at play here. A woman is allowed to be sexy, exhibit sexiness or show it in a fictional status and do so without having guys telling her that it's "bad."

You genuinely don't believe in the "one bad apple" theory? No matter how much good you do, a bad deed taints the entire thing. It doesn't matter how good the quality is on average - the outliers are what people notice.

And you're talking like Liliana is a real person and I'm trying to impose my will upon her as a man dictating what is and isn't okay for a woman to do. It feels to me like you're trying to read a narrative here that isn't there. What I want is for Magic to be something that's open and inviting to all people, and I genuinely believe the current depictions of Liliana are going to be a turn-off for a not-insignificant number of people. I believe it is a stylistic choice that is unnecessary, and you can create the same character with the same motivations with a little more class in the way you choose to depict her.

However 'bad' the LotV artwork is in terms of anatomical correctness, are you trying to tell me that in that artwork, she doesn't look confident, she's not making eye contact, or she's not being teasing? All three of those qualifications are being met in most artwork that exists of her out there.

Liliana of the Veil is an offender for being anatomically ridiculous in terms of posture and presentation. You take that same dress (honestly, it's a gorgeous dress) and put the character in a more natural pose and it's probably fine.

Reading both of your responses though made me realize that I was unintentionally being a little disingenuous with my original post. Let me back up again and approach it this way:

Let's look at video games. I think it's great that all sorts of video games exist, and I think there are all sorts of fantastic depictions of all sorts of male and female characters across the entire spectrum. The game that jumps out at me during this conversation is Bayonetta - sure, she's not really the same character as Liliana, but there are some obvious parallels in the way that the two are depicted. I think it's completely fine that Bayonetta exists, but I don't like Liliana. Why?

The difference is that I can tell someone that I love video games and not be terribly worried if they happen to be offended by Bayonetta. I can tell them to play any number of games and they don't have to expose themselves to the parts they find distasteful. But if I recommend that someone play Magic, they're going to be exposed to all parts of it. It's all part and parcel - it's the same game. If you find Liliana distasteful, well, too bad. You either deal with it, or you don't play. Personally, I don't find her so distasteful that I'm going to stop playing, but it gives me serious reservation when it comes to recommending the game to a certain subset of people who I believe would otherwise love it.

I want to be able to recommend this game without reservation. I personally think it's one of, if not the, best tabletop game ever made in terms of fun, strategic depth, etc. But I know that there are plenty of people who will find these sorts of things a turnoff, and I think it's completely unnecessary, which is why it bothers me.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
You genuinely don't believe in the "one bad apple" theory? No matter how much good you do, a bad deed taints the entire thing. It doesn't matter how good the quality is on average - the outliers are what people notice.

Uh, no I absolutely do not believe that. That is the basically tokenism. When a minority (EDIT: OR ANYBODY) is a thing or does a thing, it's not appropriate to think of that thing as representative of the whole. I've reiterated this one a couple of times. If you disagree, so be it, but no, I do not agree with this in the slightest.

And you're talking like Liliana is a real person and I'm trying to impose my will upon her as a man dictating what is and isn't okay for a woman to do. It feels to me like you're trying to read a narrative here that isn't there. What I want is for Magic to be something that's open and inviting to all people, and I genuinely believe the current depictions of Liliana are going to be a turn-off for a not-insignificant number of people. I believe it is a stylistic choice that is unnecessary, and you can create the same character with the same motivations with a little more class in the way you choose to depict her.

You seem to be missing that I'm talking about the artist, who is a real person. I really don't see how you missed that, to be honest.
 

Crocodile

Member
This argument always slightly vexes me, because you can make it about almost any sexualised character... ;-). The problem with Liliana is that for some reason Wizards normal sensibilities about female characters go completely out of the window when it comes to black mana female characters: the infamous titmonster in from Innistrad being the case in point. Liliana in particular has a very bad history of being shown in a way where the entire purpose of her sexuality is to appeal to teenage boys - Liliana of the Veil is such a ridiculous picture killedagoldfish even wrote an article on it. Compare her first card to every image of her subsequently.

When you have interesting, good female characters in your game like Elspeth, Alesha and Chandra it's embarrassing to still have this one area where you revert back to fantasy art from 15 years ago. The fact that black mana female characters seem to show their power by getting their tits out and stripping is a really lazy, dumb way of showing something.

Yeah........there is a lot of subjective value judgements and assumptions in this post that I can't jive with. What does "normal sensibilities" or "titmonster" even mean? What evidence do you have that Liliana is some attempt by WOTC to "lure in teenage boys"? Why are Elspeth, Alesha and Chandra good but Liliana bad? The only thing you've described that differentiates them is their attire - that can't seriously be the only component of your argument.

I'm slightly perplexed by how you turned my entire point of 'black mana female characters are always portrayed as evil temptresses' into something completely different.

Of course Liliana is the only female planes walker like that - she's the only black mana planes walker! The fact is that when it comes to black mana characters, Wizards only has one setting for showing them off - getting their boobs out and stripping. It's an incredibly lazy, stereotypical trope they could easily move on from.

And it's not just that awful Argyle art, it's *all* of her art barring the very first card they did of her.

Again with the charged language :p Anyway, the vast majority of major Magic characters, especially the first set of Planeswalkers, adhere very closely to fantasy or general fiction tropes. Garruk's "hunter", Chandra's "passionate hothead" and Jace's "so smart he doesn't even know what do do with himself" shticks are nothing new. Tropes work for a reason and using them isn't inherently bad or lazy. It all depends on the execution and I think in most circumstances the execution has been fine and as we learn more and more about these characters they will only improve.

She's okay here:

It's probably better to show instead of tell I guess.

All four of the Avacyn angels have DD tits and thighhighs. They all show off their wonderful model figures in that pose where women arch themselves back and pull up their legs ever so slightly to show off all the goods.

But you know, those are actually minor details. Each of the angels has something going on that draws your attention first, and then, once you look closer, you notice they're all smang-worthy. Avacyn and Bruna has their spears, Sigarda and Gisela have wicked halos. They're angels before they're hot women (okay maybe not Bruna).

This is not true of Liliana, and hasn't been true of her since her very first incarnation, as Charlequin pointed out. The less said about Argyle the better, so let's look at Dark Realms, and then Ortiz' Lili. The first thing you notice about her is that she's not wearing much. Oh, she has some kamehameha thing going on in her hands but that seems like an afterthought. Her head is very small, frighteningly so. As is her waist. Frankly, there's not much to the art aside from her body... and the strange leather-y clothing. This isn't really a matter of "female character who's comfortable in her sexuality" but "cameraman making sure to capture her tits and abdomen".

You can make an argument that they're using the art to showcase this "sexual" side of her (a side that doesn't really come up in the fiction, for some reason?), but I highly doubt most Magic players are up to date on their lore and DailyMTG short stories. They look at Lili and they'll see a hot girl. Wizards knows this, and tells their artists to appeal to this market specifically. There can be all sorts of reasons for why Lili never seems to wear very much, but they all seem to be circumstantial.

While we're on the topic, I'd like to point to Endless Obedience (above) and Liliana's Caress.

These are both cards with effects and names that would work well with her purported "strong female character who's unafraid to flaunt her sexuality" theme, but this element is notably absent from both these cards. Thus, I can't take seriously the idea that Wizards wants Liliana to be a person who celebrates her sexuality. Or if it is, it's minor enough to not be worth enforcing for non-premier cards, aka, planeswalkers.

Onto Ortiz' new Lili.

Clearly, she's following the style guide, because Lili's wearing the same outfit she wore at the end of Innistrad. I don't care to speculate on Ortiz's intentions because that's just rude, so I'll just talk about the piece itself. First, the camera is zoomed out, like for the AVR angels, and yet, it's impossible not to notice her bare skin. The contrast between her skin and her clothing demands it. The background is a gray, nondescript setting of fire and destruction, all of which makes her body pop out more. For stage props, we have these truly thirsty zombies that likely represent the game's male, tweenage audience as they ogle and hoverhand Lili. Come to think of it, this art would be really good for Endless Obedience, much better than the original was, which brings me to my next point.

Whatever Ortiz' own tastes, it's pretty obvious that the commission specifically asked for these zombies, Female necromancers as "mother/dominatrix" is a pretty common trope in fantasy, and this is what they were trying to evoke here. I think this one leans firmly toward the dominatrix side. Why? Replace Liliana with a real model, and the zombies with real dudes (note how none of them look even vaguely female). What do you see? A beer ad. She could be holding a can of Bud Light during the Superbowl.

This, I imagine, is the thing that really rustles people's jimmies: the way Liliana is just consistently conceived of as a model instead of a black mage. Or rather, that "black female mage" seems to be synonymous with model in Wizards' visual design dictionary. There's nothing wrong with this in a vacuum, but when you look at how often they're equating the "corruption" aspect of black with "sexuality", and applying that connection almost exclusively to females (Tasigur being a notable recent exception), well, that paints a different picture doesn't it? We all know where the idea of "corruption = sex" came from, and its origins aren't women friendly at all.

For the record, I like Ortiz' painting a lot. It's gorgeous, evocative and I can tell she went out of her way not to draw Liliana with a wasp thin waist and a xylophone rib cage. Ortiz's Lili probably eats full, hearty meals in between subjugating backwards peasant villages. But the powers that be demand Lili be a sex symbol and a sex symbol is ultimately what she drew.

When I mention object vs non-object I'm usually looking for agency, power, independence, how their attire ties into what we know about the character, etc. In most respects, Liliana comes out positively across those metrics. I think "ignoring the lore" is something that straight up can't or shouldn't be done. This is a woman who made a deal with demons to preserve her beauty and youth. Her sexuality as part of her character is a relevant aspect of her character that has been discussed in the wider Magic literature and has come up occasionally in flavor text (to my recollection I may want to double check) and what not. I don't think it has been expressed in every single card (or needs to be) but it plays into the obvious "Vamp" archetype she is derived from - WOTC again has made it clear that trying to stick to resonant flavor (tropes and themes that the wider audience may be familiar with) has been successful for them as they don't want Kamigawa II: Electric Bugaloo along that axis.

As for "Black Female Mage", I looked to gatherer for every Human, Female, Legendary Creature with Black mana in their CMC. I got the following list:

Kiku, Night's Flower
Anafenza, the Foremost
Lady Evangela
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
Merieke Ri Berit
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Teysa, Orzhov Scion (+ her RTR incarnation)
Braids, Cabal Minion
Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
Gwendlyn Di Corci
Kaalia of the Vast
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Triad of Fates
Ghoulcaller Gisa
Grandmother Sengir
Sen Triplets
Princess Lucrezia
Vela the Night-Clad
Sivitri Scarzam

Some of those characters are old as fuck but I'm also excluding some humanoid, but not human, characters like Oona who definitely doesn't fall into the trope you mentioned. Overall, I think there is more variety that you're letting on. I can agree to an extent that Black characters, Male or Female, could stand to have more character archetypes represented amongst themselves (I think this is true of all colors to be frank though) however I think calling all Black, Female, Legendary Creatures monolithic in archetype is a bit disingenuous. I know Liliana gets the focus since she's a Planeswalker but she isn't the end all, be all of Black Female characters in the game.

Let me clarify, I was thinking of this when I wrote that precise sentence:

That is, when you draw the line between sexual characters and sexual objects, Liliana, for me, firmly falls on the side of objects. I did a little more digging and found Ortiz's other necromancer lady.

Same idea as her new Lili. Cute black mage raising ghouls. Her blackened bridal wear accentuates her femininity, without needing to show off tits and thigh (there's not a lot of ass in Magic, now that I think about it), but she doesn't need to show nearly as much skin as Lili to achieve the same effect.

Gisa and Liliana may both be female necromancer's but there is no reason to assume or suggest that they should act or dress the same. So I'm not sure I entirely understand your point. Gisa is strictly better because she shows less skin?

It doesn't matter how good Magic is on average (or even in majority) when it comes to female depictions. It doesn't matter how much evidence I have to defend the game as being progressive. It doesn't matter what the storyline dictates in terms of character development. It's not enough for the game to have good examples of quality female depictions, but it must also be devoid of bad examples, or at least be showing growth. The fact that they keep choosing to make these depictions of Liliana the face of the product makes recent progressive steps look like token gestures.

Don't we want this game to be open and accepting to all players? We've had a problem with being open to female players for a very long time, but it's been getting better. But what do I say; "Oh, in Theros and Khans the female characters are great, but in this set we're just going to ogle Liliana?"

I completely understand why they chose to show Liliana as the initial face of the set. Her transformation is stunning. The first piece is gorgeous; she looks so innocent, which makes the follow up so striking. In that sense the second piece works - it's incredible, in fact, when paired together. It really makes you wonder "what happened," which is exactly what they're going for.

And then you start to look at the second piece, with savage mindless men clawing at her and pointing at her body on display for the viewer. "Look at me, boys, but don't touch! *wink*" And then you realize that the art director, story director, and artist could have told the same story without objectifying her for the viewer. We all know that players appreciate the game for different reasons - many players don't know the stories at all (mostly because for all their attempts, Wizards sucks at storytelling). That artwork does not tell that story to someone who's not entrenched.

Do you really think that a potential new player sees Liliana and thinks "Oh, this is a powerful necromancer whose sexuality is a core component of her character and who uses others for her own benefit?" Or do they think "Oh look, tits. I guess this game is for teenage boys who don't know better."

And here's the thing - you can do sexy without being classless. It was the teenage me who thought that tits hanging out were sexy. What 30-year-old me finds sexy is being confident, holding eye contact, and just the tiniest of teases.

To put it simply: Liliana reeks of being drawn for early teens who think that watching porn makes them "adult."

Or maybe I'm just a grumpy old man already.

I'm not female so I can't really say what might generally be off-putting to that group. I can make logical conjectures but what matters most is their actual opinions. I'd would certainly agree with you if like Magic was overrun with "Lilianas" but its not. The "Lilianas" and the "Elspeths" should and can co-exist - the existence of one does nothing to devalue to existence of the other especially since within the context of Magic, it falls way more on the "Elspeth" side than the "Liliana" side. Calling the very real and appreciated general trend of increased inclusiveness "token" feels kind of insulting and it continues the "assumed to be fact" notion that Liliana is regressive. You can't point o Liliana and ignore everything else around her. I would also say I'd be very careful to assume that every potential female Magic player would have an issue with Liliana or that none would even like her.

When I look over the second piece I just see it as Liliana lording over her zombie minions as their master, not her as some object for zombie fulfillment. That's a subjective assessment but I feel that is what the art was going for and what I see. As for your last point, Liliana seems to exhibit all those traits in the vast majority of the art I've seen of her so.......shouldn't that fall in line with what you find "sexy" (vs. "teenage boy sexy")?
 
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