WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Jace will become the Living Dragonmaster
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Jace will become the Living Dragonmaster
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
He's never spoken a single word in the flesh. Its possible he's an evil bastard.
"Why can't I hold all these planar responsibilities?!"
divisionbyzorro
Member
Someone help me understand - the key that I'm missing here is how Ugin not dying at the hands of an Dragon somehow causes the rise of dragons. What did I miss?
Yeah, that's great and all except, guess what, every deck in Legacy really does use Brainstorm and Force of Will. Legacy as a format doesn't have enough broken answers to these dumb, shitty designed cards, therefore, I think its a bad format. And woo-hoo, the format costs 10 billion dollars to buy into so its dying anyways.
? Why you so angry? Force is the testament of good design, an extremely good reactive card that is bad against fair slower decks and is extremely good against super-fast, RNJesus decks which can win T1.
I can concede Brainstorm being dumb, but it's dumb in power level only, the card itself is interesting and bring a lot of decisions every game. Or do you prefer 4 mana 4/5 trample that helix the opponent on etb?
A game where card quality is the most important factor simply degenerate in playing the best card every turn on the curve, and that seems to be magic modern design with everything being mid-rangey, whereas older magic had its rocks and its control-go as well as its rdw and combo. If that is good design, well, opinions i guess.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Preach it brother.
Ugin seemingly powers the "dragon tempests" which is where new Tarkir dragons come from. When Bolas killed him and left the tempests stopped forever and the dragons were hunted to extinction. Now, Ugin is alive but sealed up in a cocoon thing and the tempests are going full blast. It is suggested that he used to modulate them in some manner to keep a balance between dragons and the other inhabitants of Tarkir but he can't while healing/sleeping/hotboxing in his hedron thing.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Ugin was the source of all dragons on Tarkir basically, they spawn from magical storms that he's responsible for.
SigmasonicX
Member
They seem fine to me. I largely enjoy reading them.
Anyway, it seems like the intensity of the dragon storms increased in reaction to Ugin being injured. They're basically reacting in anger.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Having an opinion is not equivalent to "angry," that's you using weasel words to imply my mood level. I'm not really sure why people on the internet have this predilection with branding people giving opinions they don't like as "angry."
Its not an either-or option between Force of Will and Siege Rhino. The problem with your "best card every turn" thing is that the best cards are Brainstorm and Force of Will. And its just silly to argue Force is "bad" against any deck. Force is good against every deck played in Legacy.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I don't have a problem with old design so much as new design. Force of Will and brainstorm wouldn't have such a deadlock on the format if other colors had good 0-mana interaction and variance disablers. Blue's monopoly on card manipulation is the grossest part of magic. Every deck wants cards. Useful card selection shouldn't be part of one color's slice of the pie.
Give me real cards, Wizards! Not random 4-of beaters. More Ponders! In every color!
Give me real cards, Wizards! Not random 4-of beaters. More Ponders! In every color!
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";152623517]I don't have a problem with old design so much as new design. Force of Will and brainstorm wouldn't have such a deadlock on the format if other colors had good 0-mana interaction and variance disablers. Blue's monopoly on card manipulation is the grossest part of magic. Every deck wants cards. Useful card selection shouldn't be part of one color's slice of the pie.[/QUOTE]
That's just because it took about 10 years for them to figure out blue's slice of the pie was overpowered as all fuck and shouldn't be super cheap.
Force of Will (and Misdirection, too) was part of a cycle, you just don't ever see the other cards get played. Wizards at the time figured that Force of Will was good enough vs. Pyrokinesis that a life payment of 1 would balance it out.
That's just because it took about 10 years for them to figure out blue's slice of the pie was overpowered as all fuck and shouldn't be super cheap.
Force of Will (and Misdirection, too) was part of a cycle, you just don't ever see the other cards get played. Wizards at the time figured that Force of Will was good enough vs. Pyrokinesis that a life payment of 1 would balance it out.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Except Pyrokinesis doesn't offer an effect that we care about. If you want to throw damage around at instant speed, you're likely not holding cards in hand. It turns out that there is a card that does what you're asking for, and it does see play. It's called Fireblast.
Nobody wants to go -1 card to deal damage. In fact, nobody really wants to go -1 card to counter a spell either. They just do it because they need to, and because the opponent's engine is fragile enough that knocking out one part of it is enough. Or, to put it another way, if your opponent's deck doesn't care about card advantage, neither do you.
And it turns out that there are proactive weapons to beat Force of Will too! It's not oppressive - it's just suppressive enough.
So you've never played a game in the format then? Like I don't want to make assumptions but that's really the gist I'm getting here. Like there's no question that those cards are seeing a lot of play but citing "X cards are being played too much" is not much of an issue in the face of Legacy's high deck diversity. Brainstorm, as super powerful as it is in formats with plentiful and good shuffle effects, has had multiple articles written explicitly and exclusively on how to play the card. The same can't be said of a lot of other cards in Magic history. Yes, the format is biased towards Blue but it remains a format with high deck diversity and a lot of intensive decision making. Like its not hard to see why it appeals to a lot of players who have been with the game for a long time. Again, you don't have to like the format but how often Force of Will or Brainstorm get played have nothing to do with the format being "dumb" or bad.
You're being disingenuous if you don't see how Force of Will & Brainstorm encourage and promote completely different play patterns than Siege Rhino (not that I have a problem with Rhino, I think its a cool & fun card but it is the epitome of "set it & forget" gameplay). Also, yes, the quality of Force of Will does change depending on the match-up. There are games & decks where you absolutely don't want 4 in your maindeck.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Force of Will functions like a black card. That kind of annoys me.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I agree there's a large diversity of Brainstorm and Force of Will decks in Legacy. I also suggest you look up what "disingenuous" means. I can't be disingenuous and not see the argument that's being made. Being disingenuous means the opposite of not understanding something.
Let's put it this way: the land base alone costs more than a running used car and you can't win unless you play blue and start your deck building with 12 specific cards: Wasteland, Force of Will and Brainstorm. The fact that all of these are broken cards is a good enough reason for me to not like the format. You don't have to agree, but I think its an actively bad format and its part of the reason its dying.
divisionbyzorro
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";152625872]Force of Will functions like a black card. That kind of annoys me.[/QUOTE]
Force of Will means that you're not going to lose to Undercity Informer, or even have to face it at all after round three. That makes up for a multitude of sins.
Force of Will means that you're not going to lose to Undercity Informer, or even have to face it at all after round three. That makes up for a multitude of sins.
When Maverick was the TDB, people sided out FoWs pretty often, and a lot of blue lists didn't play the full set. So your statement is incorrect. Force presence is purely reactive.
That's also a reason i think MM in modern would sucks and is considered too good for Legacy. And i also think FoW would do wonder for Modern as a safety valve, but wotc didn't agree with me and basically has to ban tons of cards only because there aren't enough way to interact meaningfully with a lot of decks. Gavin's format (invasion onward), for as short lived as it was, had a banned list of 6 cards and had basically no OP deck dominating (while elves! was the best deck, but the format was extremely young and didn't react enough, just to say : MM was almost never played because it sucked against the other dominants decks, tron and loam).
SigmasonicX
Member
MM?
divisionbyzorro
Member
I assume he means Mental Misstep
A) I'm calling you dishonest. I don't believe you don't understand the difference between Siege Rhino and Brainstorm with regards to the "best card problem" as described by G.ZZZ. To make the comparison you did you would indeed have to not understand that difference but again, I believe you are feigning ignorance to make a point.
B) You keep going on about how "every deck needs Brainstorm, Force of Will & Wasteland" to compete but that IS NOT TRUE. If you've ever played or watched the format you would know that to be not true. Storm, Maverick, Elves, Burn, Infect, Death and Taxes, Sneak & Show are all competitive decks off the top of my head that can/do forsake one or more of all those cards. Of the ones that share Brainstorm & Force of Will packages, they all play wildly different. I won't argue that the format is Blue biased but again there is a shit ton of viable decks both within the context of Brainstorm + Force of Will and outside it. You're describing a problem that doesn't exist (except maybe the "I hate these 3 cards in particular" problem guess).
C) If you're talking about monetary costs, you won't get any argument from me but that has nothing to do with deck diversity, gameplay, etc. and everything to do with the shitty Reserve List.
I have to assume if more people got to play Over-Extended and it had GPs or PTs dedicated to it that the ban list would be much larger.
I really don't see how it's too strong for modern. I'm having a hard time thinking of decks where it's playable. Maybe twin?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Straight up the facts prove you wrong. 80% of decks play FOW and Brainstorm. I think you're arguing this based on your assumption about what Legacy's meta looks like versus the reality of Legacy's meta. Just check the statistics - the percentage of the meta that aren't FOW/Brainstorm decks really is 20%.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Modern's 1-drops are fundamental to how the format plays (Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Thoughtseize). If decks can play Mental Misstep, the entire format is in chaos.
When are those figures you posted from? I can see it being slightly different after the TC era.
I just don't see it man. I 100% wouldn't run it in affinity or scapeshift. What deck would look at MM as something essential to their 75?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
MTGgoldfish. They compile data from MTGO dailies and SCG/GP/PT events.
divisionbyzorro
Member
When you copy a card, you copy the card as printed. You don't get to copy any effect that's on it.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty).
Rule 706.2.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Bogles, to counter thoughtseize.
divisionbyzorro
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";152634089]Bogles, to counter thoughtseize.[/QUOTE]
Twin also, to counter Thoughtseize/Path/Bolt/Dispel.
Zoo might, to counter Path (although they already get to play Mutagenic Growth to as a soft-counter to Bolt).
And of course, you need to be able to counter Mental Misstep.
Twin also, to counter Thoughtseize/Path/Bolt/Dispel.
Zoo might, to counter Path (although they already get to play Mutagenic Growth to as a soft-counter to Bolt).
And of course, you need to be able to counter Mental Misstep.
Your argument is essentially "don't show up to a Legacy tournament without Brainstorm, Force of Will or Wasteland" isn't it? I'm not sure why you added the Wasteland bit anyway since the chart you pulled up doesn't even support a ubiquity of Wastelands. Anyway, all the chart you pulled showed is that those cards get a shit ton of play (which I never argued against). Since it tells you nothing about winrates, it doesn't support your claim that a deck is non-viable if it doesn't have Brainstorm & Force of Will in it.
Furthermore, the chart tells you nothing about deck diversity. Deck diversity and strategic variance are the important criteria in discerning format "health" because those matter way more than the individual cards used (especially since Force of Will and Brainstorm are reactive and deck smoothing cards not engine cards or build-arounds). It's the same thing with how utility cards like Path and Bolt are all over the place in Modern but like 35 different decks with different strategies use those same cards. If a lot of decks are using similar cards but they all play radically differently from each other and against each other, what exactly is the problem?
TLDR:
A) You legit can win Legacy tournaments even if you don't play Brainstrom & Force of Will
B) Under the umbrella of Force of Will & Brainstorm decks are like 15+ decks. There's no shortage of strategic variety
Still, it's not anywhere in the same universe as what happens when it's legal in legacy.
what you said as well as:
drs
brainstorm
ponder
preordain
delver
mom
high tide
spell pierce
dark rit
top
stp
rite of flame
entomb
reanimate
careful study
putrid imp
faithless looting
bunch of elves
and a lot of other stuff. plus being able to shuffle away when it's dead and exile to fow
The "and to counter MM" is kind of silly. Who is trying to next level the couple decks where MM is viable on modern?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Again, that is wrong. The data only pulls from published deck lists, which are only top 8 decklists.
I'm not saying that there isn't deck diversity, I'm saying all of that diversity is within blue decks that run Force of Will and Brainstorm. If you still can't see that, I'm not sure what to tell you; if you do, I'm not sure how you're throwing the word disingenuous at other people. If that's your bag, play lots of Legacy, but I wouldn't recommend a buy-in.
SigmasonicX
Member
This conversation showed that there is a desire for a "silver bullet" spell in Modern to handle any potentially degenerate cards, but what would that look like as a nonblue spell that isn't a counter? Maybe something like:
Hijack - XR
Instant
You may exile a red card with converted mana cost X from your hand rather than pay Hijack's mana cost.
Gain control of target spell with converted mana cost X or less until end of turn. If it is an instant, sorcery, or Aura, you may choose new targets for it. (If the spell becomes a permanent, you lose control of it at end of turn.)
Hijack - XR
Instant
You may exile a red card with converted mana cost X from your hand rather than pay Hijack's mana cost.
Gain control of target spell with converted mana cost X or less until end of turn. If it is an instant, sorcery, or Aura, you may choose new targets for it. (If the spell becomes a permanent, you lose control of it at end of turn.)
divisionbyzorro
Member
Just to be clear, have you ever played Legacy? Or spent any significant amount of time watching it?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Sure, I've watched Legacy streams and played a bit on MODO. Of course, that's not actually relevant to the discussion, its just a way to use a fallacy to avoid the discussion by saying, "but you don't KNOW Legacy like I know Legacy man!!" It doesn't actually matter to the argument at all whether I personally won 50 Legacy tournaments or just looked at the meta. Its not changing that the stats bear out that you need to play a FOW deck to win. That's true in Vintage too (which I still actively play), but you can also play ridiculously fun broken shit that's banned in Legacy.
Anywho, there are aggressive, tempo and combo strategies all represented within the umbrella of Brainstorm & Force of Will. You even have some control decks too though those tend to be less numerous as a default in such large formats. Non Force of Will & Brainstrom decks may be less numerous but even as a minority, they are still viable. I will concede that my experience with the format is IRL (local stores & SCG events) so I dunno if the MTGO meta is being particularly skewed in a certain direction. At the end of the day, it just seems you hate the cards Brainstorm and Force of Will. Which you are certainly entitled to do. I just find it weird because I tend to evaluate formats based on the decks and strategies being represented and not the individual cards. As long as enough people can do enough different things and still have a shot of winning, that is more important to me even if the decklists share cards.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That's the point, you can't do enough different things because your deck has to be blue to have Force of Will and enough shit to pitch to it. Its because early Magic design was bad and gave blue overpowered shit.
Anywho, there are aggressive, tempo and combo strategies all represented within the umbrella of Brainstorm & Force of Will. You even have some control decks too though those tend to be less numerous as a default in such large formats. Non Force of Will & Brainstrom decks may be less numerous but even as a minority, they are still viable. I will concede that my experience with the format is IRL (local stores & SCG events) so I dunno if the MTGO meta is being particularly skewed in a certain direction. At the end of the day, it just seems you hate the cards Brainstorm and Force of Will. Which you are certainly entitled to do. I just find it weird because I tend to evaluate formats based on the decks and strategies being represented and not the individual cards. As long as enough people can do enough different things and still have a shot of winning, that is more important to me even if the decklists share cards.
(Also, that's not the MTGO meta alone, its the MTGO daily events plus the top 8 decklists of various SCG and GP events.)
Blue's historical first class citizenship aside, Legacy is certainly more differentiated than either Modern or Standard. Having played lots of different decks via proxy, I'd say it manages be an interesting format despite the ubiquity of Brainstorm and Force of Will.
It is definitely more interesting than either Thragtusk/Revelation Standard, or Tarm/Bob Modern were, partly because the two offending cards themselves create nuanced gameplay.
It is definitely more interesting than either Thragtusk/Revelation Standard, or Tarm/Bob Modern were, partly because the two offending cards themselves create nuanced gameplay.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This is all you need to know about MODO:
"Bug fix: Card View | The client no longer crashes when a pane set to Card View is reduced to its minimum vertical size and the User scrolls down"
"Bug fix: Card View | The client no longer crashes when a pane set to Card View is reduced to its minimum vertical size and the User scrolls down"
crimsonspider89
Banned
You do realize some of the top Legacy decks don't run Force of Will right? And some decks only run Force of Will to protect there combos.
Hell elves and storm which are both top tier legacy decks neither run Force of Will or brainstorm. Not to mention Death and Taxes which is all white.
And even then with brainstorm and FoW the decks play totally different. Proxy some of them up.
Just compare Miracles vs Counterbalance vs Delver.
Hell elves and storm which are both top tier legacy decks neither run Force of Will or brainstorm. Not to mention Death and Taxes which is all white.
And even then with brainstorm and FoW the decks play totally different. Proxy some of them up.
Just compare Miracles vs Counterbalance vs Delver.
This is basically the point I've been making. Even if you have to play Force of Will & Brainstorm (you don't, it's just suggested you do) there are still 35351235 different things you can do and not feel embarrassed. Compared to the number of viable strategies/decks in other constructed formats, its in a good place with respect to deck diversity (which matters more than card diversity).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Not ignoring you, but read the earlier posts.
Well.. Although technically not a "Rotating format" in the sense there are rotating sets, when folks keep jumping on the winning decks that need banned or get banned so much that the format is different every year its basically the same thing. I personally don't have time for Modern, but if I did I would want to play something that was good, which unfortunately by standards set in place so far with such a newly developing format, means nothing is safe. Granted I felt like BP needed banned to free up some midrange possibilities, every vocal opinion then starts throwing out what needs banned next and it frustrates me as a player trying (granted not that hard due to time) to get into modern. I just don't have the money to be throwing around a format that has such an expensive card pool compared to alternatives.
EDIT: v Birthing Pod.
SigmasonicX
Member
BP?
I think those numbers are flawed. Not only likely being heavily influenced by TC which is now banned, but modo prices as well. A deck like D&T is insanely expensive with the $150+ ports and $110+ wastelands. UR Delver was incredibly cheap by comparison as well as being popular due to TC before the ban.
Are you sure they're factoring in non-modo results? Every deck I look at seems to only show dailies. There are plenty of non-FoW decks that put up results in paper tournaments. More than 20% for sure.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They don't show decks like that. They just show random sample decks. You'd have to go to individual events to bear that out. But keep in mind that just weighting in favor of paper events is kind of silly since there's dramatically more sample data online and there's no legitimate reason to simply assume paper events are more meaningful. Legacy is expensive everywhere in every format.
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