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[ironmang]

well Modern isn't eternal, it's non-rotating.
I think they should just say fuck it and unban Legacy-level stuff like Jace, DRS and SFM.

When people say eternal they're obviously talking about non-rotating formats. Calling someone out on it is like being a grammar stickler only 1000000x worse.

I love that EVERY major Modern event is followed by "what cards do we have to ban?!" and by love I mean hate with every fiber of my being but WOTC kind of set the stage for this so oh well :/

It really isn't a good look for the format. Magic is already expensive enough without large chunks of people having to change $1000 decks because of it being the new problem after the old problem was banned.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Aside from him liking RTR standard because he won at it a lot, he's dead on about a number of them. Team Sealed really is the best format in the game. Its much better than team drafting.

I completely agree about Team Sealed, and I wish there were more opportunities to play Team-based Magic on a regular basis. He's not wrong there.

Picking on Modern and FRF as the worst formats of all time is ridiculous and click-baity (which worked, I guess, since I linked it here). His comments about Modern especially make him sound like a petulant child; like he felt like he deserved to do better at the Pro Tour, and the only reason he didn't was because the format was dumb.

Essentially, he's just picked formats that he's good at as "good formats," and formats he's bad at as "bad formats," which is why I can't take his opinion seriously.

 

[kirblar]

FRF has gotten a lot of hate from a number of directions, and it seems valid. Take bombs, then take fixing to set up Khans isn't really an interesting draft strategy. Pre-RTR modern was good but since then the wheels came off the bus and they've been struggling to fix it up.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

FRF has gotten a lot of hate from a number of directions, and it seems valid. Take bombs, then take fixing to set up Khans isn't really an interesting draft strategy. Pre-RTR modern was good but since then the wheels came off the bus and they've been struggling to fix it up.

FRF has issues, but it's not even in the discussion for worst of all time. Did we forget M12? Coldsnap? Come on, man.

And we've done the Modern thing to death here. It's not perfect - it never has been. But it's always been very wide open and a lot of fun to play. It has a constantly shifting metagame, thanks to new players exploring it and some very heavy-handed bannings. And it has consistently rewarded players who have studied Modern and made it "their" format, in the same way that Legacy and Vintage do.

The biggest problem with Modern has always been to find an identity. So many people want it to be Legacy-Minus or Standard-Plus, rather than let it just be what it is.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Speaking of skilled players, what would be your favorite tournament structure for promoting solid play be, if nothing else reasonably mattered?

I'd be super happy with double elimination, 3/5 games, 90 minute rounds.

This way there's no tiebreaker bullshit, sideboarding is even more important and variance has a lower overall impact.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";153331436]Speaking of skilled players, what would be your favorite tournament structure for promoting solid play be, if nothing else reasonably mattered?

I'd be super happy with double elimination, 3/5 games, 90 minute rounds.

This way there's no tiebreaker bullshit, sideboarding is even more important and variance has a lower overall impact.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see double elimination, but I don't like the idea of playing more sideboarded games. I think it's important to be prepared for the metagame in the maindeck and sideboard, and not to be able to use the board as a crutch. That's why I would stick with 2/3 games; this lets 66% of the games be sideboarded, which I think is reasonable vs either 80% or 60% if you're playing best 3-of-5.

 

[ultron87]

For that goal I'd like to see some sort of modified mulligan rule just to reduce the number of mull to oblivion non games played. But I'm not sure what the best way to do that is that doesn't enable nut draw combo decks. Maybe something like 7-6-5-5?

 

[red13th]

When people say eternal they're obviously talking about non-rotating formats. Calling someone out on it is like being a grammar stickler only 1000000x worse.

Eh, it's silly to call people on that, I agree. Doesn't make them right.

If you're balancing for Limited purposes only, Wasteland is definitely not uncommon.

Also, this article from Owen basically cemented my opinion of his opinion - which is that his opinions are dumb and nobody should listen to them.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-5-best-and-5-worst-formats-of-all-time/

wtf RtR-Theros? Better than original Ravnica+anything? lol

EDIT: also, he's delusional if he really belives that in Legacy "you can play almost any deck you want and be competitive". I do agree that it's one of the best formats ever though.

 

[Crocodile]

They can just exclude it from the reminder text like they did with Shifting Loyalties:

Why would it be on that text of that card? A Tribal permanent doesn't really provide any additional information as all Tribal permanents are artifacts or enchantments (and if they had made them land or planeswalker).

New MTGO Set: Tempest Remastered
http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/ar...line/announcing-tempest-remastered-2015-02-23

They said no new art but I don't recognize that Bottle Gnomes or "Dragon" art.

Also, Tempest Remastered is the strangest idea they've come up with in a long time. Especially since TSE was kind of miserable as far as draft formats go (in my opinion based on playing it something like four or five times).

Considering how reconfigured this format should be, experiences with the original format (good or bad) may not carry over.

 

[OnPoint]

For that goal I'd like to see some sort of modified mulligan rule just to reduce the number of mull to oblivion non games played. But I'm not sure what the best way to do that is that doesn't enable nut draw combo decks. Maybe something like 7-6-5-5?

This is what I'd like:

No lands/All lands = 1 free mulligan to 7, but you reveal the hand to prove it, and your opponent can write down the contents

It gives you the ability to not lose a card, but gives your opponent something for you shipping it back.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The problem I have with 2/3 isnt the ratio of pre/post-board, but of the impact of mana screw/flood and mulligans where a certain percentage of games just aren't games. Its not a great competitive game in the times when your intelligence doesn't get to influence the outcome.

Post board games are more important already, and knowing how to move around your configuration is another skill test that I like, that also creates a ton of room for individuality which is great for both players and coverage.

It does affect certain decks to an extent, but those are generally the less interactive decks to begin with.

 

[ultron87]

Why would it be on that text of that card? A Tribal permanent doesn't really provide any additional information as all Tribal permanents are artifacts or enchantments (and if they had made them land or planeswalker).

You can swap a Bitterblossom for a. . . *gatherers up a Tribal Artifact* Diviner's Wand. So it could be relevant, it is just entirely unneeded given how rarely it would come up.

If printed in standard Goyf could easily be printed with text like "(Artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, and sorcery are card types.)" if they wanted to not put Tribal on a card, even in reminder text. Or just have no reminder text like the Modern Masters version.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Why would it be on that text of that card? A Tribal permanent doesn't really provide any additional information as all Tribal permanents are artifacts or enchantments (and if they had made them land or planeswalker).



They said no new art but I don't recognize that Bottle Gnomes or "Dragon" art.



Considering how reconfigured this format should be, experiences with the original format (good or bad) may not carry over.

No new art commissioned for it. There's a lot of new art that was in VMA or other supplemental sets that will be used, I imagine. Possibly even the MTGO promo/judge foil Wasteland art:

You can swap a Bitterblossom for a. . . *gatherers up a Tribal Artifact* Diviner's Wand. So it could be relevant, it is just entirely unneeded given how rarely it would come up.

If printed in standard Goyf could easily be printed with text like "(Artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, and sorcery are card types.)" if they wanted to not put Tribal on a card, even in reminder text. Or just have no reminder text like the Modern Masters version.

The Tarmogoyf reminder text is easter egg text though - it basically existed so they could put "Planeswalker" on the card.

 

[ultron87]

The Tarmogoyf reminder text is easter egg text though - it basically existed so they could put "Planeswalker" on the card.

I think it would still be useful to have without that trick if it was in a normal set. It's fine without the text in Modern Masters since that is a set for enfranchised players, but a standard version would be useful to have the types listed out (without Tribal). Otherwise you get people pumping their Goyfs due to having Legendaries, Equipments and Auras in the graveyard.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Or they just don't print Tarmogoyf in standard ever, which I think is a lot more likely.

 

[ultron87]

Well yeah, but I was discussing the theory bigkrev brought up earlier about one of the myriad reasons they wouldn't want to do that.

 

[ThLunarian]

Edit: never mind, I'm mistaken

 

[kirblar]

Hey Kirblar can you elaborate here? I just checked those tweets and the general sentiment I picked up was that WOTC was very happy with the viewership of PT DC. There was no indication that expected upward trends weren't met. What leads you to believe otherwise?

Oh, sorry, that was ambiguous. It blew out their expected gains- these were not just the "Last PT was the highest ever... so we expect this one to replace it!" type of incremental expected gains they thought would happen.

 

[ThLunarian]

Oh, sorry, that was ambiguous. It blew out their expected gains- these were not just the "Last PT was the highest ever... so we expect this one to replace it!" type of incremental expected gains they thought would happen.

Yeah I totally misinterpreted what you said. Wotc has some tough decisions ahead about what to do about the format I guess.

I'm glad it's not going anywhere though because it means my staples can continue to appreciate

 

[red13th]

still 62 cards and $1500 away from finishing my Cube :/
(reprint Tarmogoyf and Zen fetches)

 

[charlequin]

Per Helene on Twitter - PT Washington DC was their most viewed ever. Its gains were not in line with expected upward trends. Modern is not going anywhere as a PT format.

Yeah, the pro complaints (Twin is too good, games are too matchup dependent, classic control isn't good) just don't have anything to do with what WotC needs out of a format, basically. People like watching games with older and more powerful cards, and (if you can follow the decks) Modern produces a ton of intricate gamestates and unexpected blowouts that play well on video.

I do think WotC might move against Twin at some point just because the impression that it's an overly dominant deck is bad for them, marketing-wise, so if it keeps winning after a few more sets are printed they'll have to knock it down a peg.

I think you've posted that one before, but I still disagree with your assertion that they'd never print Tarmo in a Standard set. It wouldn't be broken in most Standard formats, doubly so with any format that has a tone of graveyard disruption of basic removals. I think they're worried because it is so good in Modern that it shouldn't be printed, but I think with a tiny bit of foresight, especially in the new, quicker Standard formats coming our way, they could absolutely reprint him without breaking the format.

They would almost certainly never print it in a Standard set again, not because it would be guaranteed to break the format (it wouldn't), but because whatever joy it brings to people wouldn't outweigh a year and a half of having to put a skeptical eye on every single card and mechanic in case they pushed goyf over the top.

They need to reframe the definition of Modern and be able to include printings from certain supplemental products. If Lightning Bolt is legal in Modern, I kinda think Counterspell should be too, although I completely understand why you don't want to put it back in Standard.

At this point I don't think a single season with Counterspell would be all that bad for Standard.

Also, Tempest Remastered is the strangest idea they've come up with in a long time. Especially since TSE was kind of miserable as far as draft formats go (in my opinion based on playing it something like four or five times).

It's a great idea, it'll let people relive their rose-colored memories of drafting Tempest block instead of the rough reality of what it actually was. (Extra fuck the reserved list, BTW; people would love to pay for remastered sets of old blocks like this in paper if they did it right.)

 

[bigkrev]

Still think Counterspell is safer to reprint than Mana Leak, but not sure either has a place in Standard anymore

 

[kirblar]

Still think Counterspell is safer to reprint than Mana Leak, but not sure either has a place in Standard anymore

They don't want universal hard counters (or virtual hard counters) at 2cc, and they're right on this one.

 

[phazedplasma]

Saw a 13 yr old kick playing a full legacy D+T deck at the shop this weekend.

Me, more then double his age, staring in jealousy.

Someday wallet, someday

 

[Hero]

They don't want universal hard counters (or virtual hard counters) at 2cc, and they're right on this one.

Counterspell and Mana Leak are both way too good to reprint in a standard environment.

Counterspell would essentially be the Thoughtseize effect all over again. Best counter, little thought decision in deckbuilding, etc.

 

[phazedplasma]

I dont understand

Mastery of the unseen in RW aggro?

Ben Stark had 3 in the sideboard...

 

[kirblar]

I dont understand

Mastery of the unseen in RW aggro?

Ben Stark had 3 in the sideboard...

It's a great card vs control decks.

 

[phazedplasma]

It's a great card vs control decks.

ah because they can't counter the manifests or the flipping?

 

[Angry Grimace]

ah because they can't counter the manifests or the flipping?

You can't Bile Blight multiples either.

 

[LaserBuddha]

So tonight I had an Outpost Siege out (dragons) and my opponent triggered Ugin's -X ability. The judge said that he was to go one by one and choose each permanent in his preferred order, and they would go into exile in the reverse order. Meaning he made my Siege go first and thus he took no damage from my other creatures leaving the battlefield. Is that how this is supposed to work?

 

[Angry Grimace]

So tonight I had an Outpost Siege out (dragons) and my opponent triggered Ugin's -X ability. The judge said that he was to go one by one and choose each permanent in his preferred order, and they would go into exile in the reverse order. Meaning he made my Siege go first and thus he took no damage from my other creatures leaving the battlefield. Is that how this is supposed to work?

No. The judge is wrong.





603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures.

 

[LaserBuddha]

No. The judge is wrong.





603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures.

Thats what I figured. Whatever he was saying, it apparently hinged on my opponent having priority.

I know it is saying that triggered abilities will still be triggered as long as they existed before an event, even if they dont exist afterward....but is it also essentially saying that when you have a board wipe (for example), there is no chosen order for removal, since the fact that triggered abilities are preserved means there is no reason for that order to exist?

It seems logical to me that the controller would only choose a target order with something like Arc Lightning that has you choose multiple targets, one at a time, Anything that doesn't target something (such as Crux of Fate) would have all of its "hits" resolve simultaneously.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Thats what I figured. Whatever he was saying, it apparently hinged on my opponent having priority.

I know it is saying that triggered abilities will still be triggered as long as they existed before an event, even if they dont exist afterward....but is it also essentially saying that when you have a board wipe (for example), there is no chosen order for removal, since the fact that triggered abilities are preserved means there is no reason for that order to exist?

It seems logical to me that the controller would only choose a target order with something like Arc Lightning that has you choose multiple targets, one at a time, Anything that doesn't target something (such as Crux of Fate) would have all of its "hits" resolve simultaneously.

There is no "order" of removal with a Wrath effect although the owner can put them in their GY in whatever order they choose. But that doesn't mean they died in a specific order.

Arc Lightning applies its damage as a single effect, not sequentially. If you target three 1/1 creatures with it, they all die at the same time. Even if the effect on Arc Lightning were sequential, the creatures would simultaneously die because creatures with lethal damage die as a state-based action, which isn't checked in the middle of a spell resolving.

 

[ElyrionX]

How is control doing in Standard now? As viable as the Sphinx-Verdict shell was before rotation?

God, I miss playing with that deck so much.

 

[Qasiel]

After playing casually for around 17 years, I finally stepped up and attended my first FNM last week. Came 5/24, which wasn't too bad! I loved the experience and although I work shifts, I'm going to try and attend a few more which is even easier now that I've got my brother into coming along and playing too.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Wouldn't that just make Twin better since its combo pieces are 3 and 4 mana cards that they can then defend from various one mana answers for "free"?

I'm not versed in modern archetypes, but i guess Infect (glistener elf) and blue combo decks in general play a lot of cantrips no? In Legacy MM actually killed all combo for the short while it was legal.

 

[y2dvd]

How is control doing in Standard now? As viable as the Sphinx-Verdict shell was before rotation?

God, I miss playing with that deck so much.

Not as broken. You pretty much have to work for it now lol, but it's more balanced this time around. U/B control is the way now. Supreme Verdict got replaced with a 5cmc counterable boardwipe. I wouldn't say there's really a replacement for Sphinx's Rev. Maybe Dig a Through Time though it doesn't give you crazy life gain. I think life gain only comes in the form of Radiant Fountain, a land that nets you 2 life. Your win condition is nowhere near as versatile as Aetherling.

It's a huge downgrade, but it's viable and took first place in a couple of events. I think people go U/B over U/W for Bile Blight which is killer for most token decks and for Hero's Downfall.

 

[Jhriad]

For that goal I'd like to see some sort of modified mulligan rule just to reduce the number of mull to oblivion non games played. But I'm not sure what the best way to do that is that doesn't enable nut draw combo decks. Maybe something like 7-6-5-5?

Increase the maximum hand size without changing the starting hand size.

 

[Firemind]

Not as broken. You pretty much have to work for it now lol, but it's more balanced this time around. U/B control is the way now. Supreme Verdict got replaced with a 5cmc counterable boardwipe. I wouldn't say there's really a replacement for Sphinx's Rev. Maybe Dig a Through Time though it doesn't give you crazy life gain. I think life gain only comes in the form of Radiant Fountain, a land that nets you 2 life. Your win condition is nowhere near as versatile as Aetherling.

It's a huge downgrade, but it's viable and took first place in a couple of events. I think people go U/B over U/W for Bile Blight which is killer for most token decks and for Hero's Downfall.

IMO Sultai is the way to go now. Red decks are packing more and more Outpost Sieges which spells game over for U/B if resolved. At least Sultai has Sultai Charm and can ramp into Ugin.

 

[phazedplasma]

Sultai control just took down a GP.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, Sultai's access to green makes it better right now.

Outpost Siege - better than Chandra cause it can't be killed by damage. Awkward.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Yeah, Sultai's access to green makes it better right now.

Outpost Siege - better than Chandra cause it can't be killed by damage. Awkward.

It was funny, every time I Sultai Charmed a RW Tokens player's Siege after it resolved game one, they just had this look on their face.

"But I'm supposed to get value!"

Of course, I still wound up losing to that card more than anything else in the matchup since I'm only running a 2-1 split of sultai charms, and they get double duty with Stormbreath Dragons.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Or they just don't print Tarmogoyf in standard ever, which I think is a lot more likely.

If they ever do, they would need to reprint half of the modern graveyard hate as well. Or make a complete Anti-Goyf creature card.

1W
Anti-Goyf
At the end of every turn, exile all cards from all graveyards. If a card that shares a type with Anti-Goyf was exiled this way, put a +1/+1 counter on Anti-Goyf.
2/2

 

[The Technomancer]

I haven't been paying attention: are you always picking the same mode on Outpost Siege or is its modal nature actually important?

 

[kirblar]

I haven't been paying attention: are you always picking the same mode on Outpost Siege or is its modal nature actually important?

It's normally the value option, but the other option being there is nice and helps lock in games.

 

[OnPoint]

If they ever do, they would need to reprint half of the modern graveyard hate as well. Or make a complete Anti-Goyf creature card.

1W
Anti-Goyf
At the end of every turn, exile all cards from all graveyards. If a card that shares a type with Anti-Goyf was exiled this way, put a +1/+1 counter on Anti-Goyf.
2/2

Better give it flash since hate bears always get that now

 

[ElyrionX]

It's normally the value option, but the other option being there is nice and helps lock in games.

Value option? You mean the card advantage option?

 

[bigkrev]

Something strange- they are using recyclable paperboard instead of traditional foil wraps for MM2015 booster packaging

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/recyclable-modern-masters-packaging-2015-02-24

 

[kirblar]

Value option? You mean the card advantage option?

Ya.

 

[ultron87]

Something strange- they are using recyclable paperboard instead of traditional foil wraps for MM2015 booster packaging

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/recyclable-modern-masters-packaging-2015-02-24

Guess they can afford all kinds of fancy tricks with our ten dollars. Thanks, MaRo.

That is nice though. Wonder if that will extend to other sets in the future. Seeing trash cans just packed full of booster foil always does seem like a bit of a waste.