As far as I'm concerned, it's fear. They're worried about messing it up and having a PR nightmare on their hands, or opening doors they don't want to be opened (they don't want any "love" or "passion" in their swords-and-sorcery card game), so they just avoid it altogether.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
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But if you call the spell "Burst of Passion" or whatever the flavor implies that it could be used for that even if in game terms you're almost always attacking.
I could maybe see this kind of flavor as a version of a Falter effect. The creatures is struck by love temporarily and can't bring themselves to fight it for a turn. I think the idea of "control" makes it problematic, and this avoids that.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Joe Molotov
Member
Lust
R
Instant
Gain control of target creature until end of turn.This creature gain Haste. You may only play this spell if you control a creature or Planeswalker with big titties.
R
Instant
Gain control of target creature until end of turn.This creature gain Haste. You may only play this spell if you control a creature or Planeswalker with big titties.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
No doubt. But then it comes back to the obvious in that it's a game for adults, featuring incredibly graphic forms of violence, women and men dressed like lingerie models and even some islands. It's just a very odd line in the sand to draw. I mean, look at Searing Spear. It's a picture of a dude getting impaled by a flaming spear, his face contorted in incredible agony and the flavor text is a joke about a dude dying. But charms or passion are scary?
Again, pretty damn stereotypical nerd thought processes at work here.
It's not so much the card title, so much as it is the art and flavor text being used in that way. (And I wonder if that's the real issue, in that they don't trust the artists to portray these things in a satisfactory way.) Can't be giving Goldfish ammo to be offended on behalf of women everywhere.
I'd like to see a card where we see the after-effects of the control effect- a distraught soldier standing over the body of another, for instance. "One moment, he was next to his comrade. When he came to his senses, that comrade was dead at his feet.'
I'd like to see a card where we see the after-effects of the control effect- a distraught soldier standing over the body of another, for instance. "One moment, he was next to his comrade. When he came to his senses, that comrade was dead at his feet.'
"God's Beard!"
Member
Red Dungeon Geists flavored on Romeo & Juliet confirmed
I think it says quite a bit about the people in charge of this game (and indirectly about the audience) that they would want to avoid these topics because of reasons.
You see this trend in fantasy writing also, I believe, where authors will try to side step or tiptoe around a very natural part of adulthood because they don't want to deal with real feelings.
You see this trend in fantasy writing also, I believe, where authors will try to side step or tiptoe around a very natural part of adulthood because they don't want to deal with real feelings.
keeblerdrow
Member
You Make A Persuasive Argument 2RRR
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may place a counter on this enchantment or take control of a creature of your choice with converted mana cost X until end of turn, where X is the number of counters on YMAPA.
Sacrifice YMAPA: You may permanently take control of any creature currently under your control.
This seems red. It has a persuasion flavor to it. And it also combos well with other forms of Act of Treason effects, because you can sac it to get that spell's target. I also think "choice" would be a neat flavor because it can get hexproof creatures, denoting that it isn't a spell that's creating the effect, but rather the argument presented by the red army.
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may place a counter on this enchantment or take control of a creature of your choice with converted mana cost X until end of turn, where X is the number of counters on YMAPA.
Sacrifice YMAPA: You may permanently take control of any creature currently under your control.
This seems red. It has a persuasion flavor to it. And it also combos well with other forms of Act of Treason effects, because you can sac it to get that spell's target. I also think "choice" would be a neat flavor because it can get hexproof creatures, denoting that it isn't a spell that's creating the effect, but rather the argument presented by the red army.
keeblerdrow
Member
STOP RUINING MY FUN MOM.
Also, it doesn't seem like too much of a flavor violation. No less than blue gets on the regular.
Yeah, this one's a pretty hard line though. (U = Permanent, R = Temporary)
U's violations just need to be shut down hard.
keeblerdrow
Member
Could it also come from B? The sacrificing of resources to create effects?
Nah, you need to sacrifice a third party for that. A black MC with a sac as a requirement to cast could be pretty cool though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's just it though. Being externally manipulated into feeling lust for someone isn't a natural part of adulthood. It does, however, have uncomfortable parallels with some unnatural human interactions. Thats really the entirety of the problem: it isn't "they fall in love with you", its "you use magic to make them fall in love with you". Putting it on a card frames it as a thing the player of the card (or their army by proxy) is doing.
I think they could do it. But I get why they're cautious.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
What if it was U/R hybrid mana?
For a mono-B card that's aping a mono-blue effect?
SigmasonicX
Member
For the record, black is allowed to have straight up Mind Control effects.
charlequin
Banned
I get why Doug is hesitant (he works really hard to make Magic inclusive, and given what the average Magic player is like I would much rather we fail on the side of too careful here) but what that really means is that they don't consider it a high priority. I think you can get the flavor right there, you just need to put some elbow grease into it.
Battlefield Tryst 2RR
Sorcery
Gain control of target creature until end of turn and it gains haste. Choose another target creature you control; if both attack this turn, they each get +1/+1 until end of turn.
Fleeting Devotion 3RR
Sorcery
Gain control of target creature until end of turn and it gains haste. Activated abilities of that creature cost up to {2} less to play this turn.
And so on.
This is a very good idea.
This isn't a nerd thing, nerds love to embarrass themselves with inappropriate and nonsensical sexual content. This is an American thing where we are way more careful about innocent sex than graphic violence.
The act of persuading someone with logic is blue tho!
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
I'm real curious about the Theros hindsight articles, because it has so, so many bad decisions that ended up producing something incredibly mediocre.
A good read, as always.
I confess that I once tought very highly of MaRo, having read all his design articles religiously, and still do, but Jesse's given me a new outlook on the kind of writer MaRo must be in practice, given his position as the Malcom Tucker of Magic.
While its true that Rosewater's status as employee of the people who own the product he's working on has to color his perspective and what he can/can't say I don't think its particularly unusual for someone to think, and thus write, that thing X is awesome and then to change their mind after years of reflection and audience reaction to say "you know what, maybe that thing I thought was awesome back then actually wasn't that awesome".
Also to his credit, he's straight up said they, WOTC, care the most about how well a set sells over, say, how much the enfranchised playerbase may have liked it. So I don't think they are being particularly dishonest, you just have to always be aware they are trying to sell you a product.
It does kind of frustrate me that the WOTC perspective on a set can color other perceptions of it though. I've run into way too many people who've never played Time Spiral block or Lorwyn block but have mostly negative things to say about them mostly because they feel they should be negative on them because WOTC is negative on them.
While I feel that I probably share many of the same thought you might have on the block, I'm curious as to if you can elaborate. Given recent statements from Rosewater, it seems overall people liked the flavor and the world but were less keen on the mechanics (I wonder why
)
Also to his credit, he's straight up said they, WOTC, care the most about how well a set sells over, say, how much the enfranchised playerbase may have liked it. So I don't think they are being particularly dishonest, you just have to always be aware they are trying to sell you a product.
It does kind of frustrate me that the WOTC perspective on a set can color other perceptions of it though. I've run into way too many people who've never played Time Spiral block or Lorwyn block but have mostly negative things to say about them mostly because they feel they should be negative on them because WOTC is negative on them.
While I feel that I probably share many of the same thought you might have on the block, I'm curious as to if you can elaborate. Given recent statements from Rosewater, it seems overall people liked the flavor and the world but were less keen on the mechanics (I wonder why
)"God's Beard!"
Member
Kill Reviews Guy is definitely my least favorite magic writer.
It's a block full of low-hanging fruit and recycled mechanics that was the design equivalent of aiming for a single when you should be looking for a home run.While I feel that I probably share many of the same thought you might have on the block, I'm curious as to if you can elaborate. Given recent statements from Rosewater, it seems overall people liked the flavor and the world but were less keen on the mechanics (I wonder why
The flavor and the world wasn't open-ended and flexible enough to translate into good sets. The two things they got right (Devotion and Monstrous) were both in the first set, and proceeded to be punted by the other two sets as they either replaced a good mechanic with a crappy one that someone should have made a stand on (Tribute) or they completely botched the follow-through execution on (The Gold Gods being 7 devotion instead of 6 was a complete botch.)
Theros and Time Spiral are both good sets, but their blocks are just really, really bad.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, real talk, if Theros block is a low bar for recent Magic quality it means we're in an okay place. The bigger concern for me is the lack of real, standout high bars. I was waiting for the full reveal of Khans for me to be able to call it one and now that Dragons is out...I don't think I can. I'm wondering when the next block that really wows me with what it's doing is, if ever
Even Planar Chaos? Man that set was awesome. The pictured Enslave above set off some good memories of mine. (Should use the superior art though.) Also, Stingscourger is one of my favourite limited cards of all time.
Future Sight I could do without though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I love Planar Chaos, just for existing. I get why a lot of R&D considers it a problem, but its such a goddamn wonky set
RTR was where I started to get worried about modern design. I touched on it before, but the thorough...okay-ness of what should have been a triumphant return bothered me
RTR was where I started to get worried about modern design. I touched on it before, but the thorough...okay-ness of what should have been a triumphant return bothered me
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm partial to Dead/Gone, but Stingscourger is great too.
I mean, come on. Look at that art. It's literally Man-o-war on a stick.
I think the first two sets in Khans block are really good, even if the limited format was an issue- the Choice theme in particular was really neat.
The "lots of mediocrity" thing is really the big issue, as you said. RTR was great. Next 3 sets...not so much. Theros was great. Next 3 sets....not so much. FRF (imo) broke that pattern, but Dragons is pretty meh, even though it has a lot of good cards.
charlequin
Banned
Man, dude is angry!
I think there's a lot of truth to the core critique -- he made a much terser and sharper version on twitter today -- but at the same time it's like... what are your expectations here, exactly? Magic is a business that survives purely on its ability to be enjoyable while selling as many packs as possible. RTR might be kludgy and safe, but it certainly plays as well as plenty of older blocks and it was super popular.
Around the Alara period I definitely felt some of the "wow they took everything and made it lame" angle, but these days there are so many weird new things that they're doing on the side (Modern Masters! Tempest Remastered! Conspiracy! Multiplayer theme decks!) that I'm reasonably on board with slightly safer main-block design.
What clears this bar historically besides Invasion, Ravnica, and (depending on your position on it) Time Spiral? Every other best-in-class set is part of a block with serious problems.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I think this pattern demonstrates that the development step is actually far more relevant to the holistic design of a set than people tend to assume, and as a corollary that Erik Lauer is the single most valuable employee in Magic R&D.
Rosewater wants to make Magic as successful as possible (read: sell lots of pack) for as long as possible. The decisions he (and WoTC) have made have absolutely furthered this goal. I personally loved Lorwyn, but it sold poorly. I would rather Wizards produce sets that I like forever than produce sets that I love and flame out.
Edit: the Goldfish article actually made me kind of angry. Lots of spurious logic in it. Rosewater isn't revising history by originally saying a set is good and then later saying it was bad; instead he starts by saying "you will love this new set" and then later may say "turns out you didn't love the new set, and I believe the reasons are X, Y, and Z"
I don't even agree with the part where he calls Roseanne disposable art!
Edit: the Goldfish article actually made me kind of angry. Lots of spurious logic in it. Rosewater isn't revising history by originally saying a set is good and then later saying it was bad; instead he starts by saying "you will love this new set" and then later may say "turns out you didn't love the new set, and I believe the reasons are X, Y, and Z"
I don't even agree with the part where he calls Roseanne disposable art!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is true. I probably look back on Lorwyn-Shadowmoor block too fondly.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I have a tendency to separate Lorwyn and Shadowmoor mentally, despite being the same block. I love Lorwyn, and I honestly can't understand why they're so against the idea of doing another tribal block. I think Lorwyn is a beautiful piece of design (despite its very real complexity issues); it feels vibrant and alive, where every card is a cog in an engine. Shadowmoor feels like a failed experiment, and despite obvious artistic ties back to Lorwyn, it feels completely separate (a failing of the overall block, perhaps).
manipulate
Member
Lorwyn-Shadowmoor was pretty cool man
planeswalkers were fresh and hybrid mana symbols!
planeswalkers were fresh and hybrid mana symbols!
charlequin
Banned
Lorwyn and Shadowmoor are both great sets; Morningtide is super problematic (ruins the limited format, among other things) and Eventide is awful.
Personally I think Khans is a great set and Fate Reforged does a good job of doing interesting, complex stuff in connection with it. If Dragons wraps it up with a meh it's still ahead of Theros on average and doesn't get close to the single-set terribleness of Dragon's Maze.
Tribal's super-popular and I guarantee there'll be a block again someday where it's the most prominent mechanical theme. (Like, Innistrad is a graveyard block with a minor in tribal; I think we'll see a set like that but with tribal's spot flipped in prominence.) The problem with Lorwyn is that it's just cranked up so absurdly far. You can do a fun tribal set without making 100% of the creatures in the set belong to the specified tribes.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Most of my fond memories of Lorwyn involve the incredibly stupid school lunchtable Merfolk combo deck I built. Merrow Commerce blew my mind back then
charlequin
Banned
I mean, Rosewater himself will say (through strong implication, at least) that it's his job to be a promoter. There is something fundamentally dishonest about the way you have to act if your job is to only speak positively about the product 24/7. I think the amount of inside info we get and Maro's willingness to be honest about things years down the line makes up for it, but it's a real criticism at least.
Yeah that's the part I agree with the absolute least, lol.
With all Lorwyn's issues in the competitive sphere, it is an amazing casual set. So many fun decks to make and so many amazing Commander cards.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Honestly the most useful stuff Rosewater writes is the really broad structural process stuff, including the Nuts and Bolts columns. With that stuff he really has no incentive to exaggerate (well, other then "it works" I guess) and there's some great game design stuff in there
Also, the look behind the scenes of their actual smash success sets is really good. Like, I love the design articles on Innistrad and how they tried to figure out how to elicit feelings from the player in the designs
Also, the look behind the scenes of their actual smash success sets is really good. Like, I love the design articles on Innistrad and how they tried to figure out how to elicit feelings from the player in the designs
charlequin
Banned
He provides very good starting design advice and really showcases a lot of easy, obvious mistakes that many designers miss. It's really when you get to that level of how you go from good design to great that it starts getting harder to fully take his word for it.
EDIT: Oh man Rosewater throwing some shade right back:
blogatog said:
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
How about:
Anguished Defector 3RR
Sorcery
If a creature you controlled died this turn, gain control of target creature.
charlequin
Banned
I like it.
My issue with Mark is the same as others - whether he realise he is doing it or not, he constantly promotes design as being the sole source of all that is good in Magic. When he talks about development there's a subtle disparaging theme to his comments - 'our job is to make it fun, their job is to get the numbers right'.
Getting the numbers right is insanely hard, and part of what makes something fun. I think the design / development split makes absolute sense, but not in the way Mark talk about it. When I did CCG design / development at another, now long dead, company getting the initial ideas for cards was the easy part - making something fun by getting the balance and use right was the hardest bit.
Getting the numbers right is insanely hard, and part of what makes something fun. I think the design / development split makes absolute sense, but not in the way Mark talk about it. When I did CCG design / development at another, now long dead, company getting the initial ideas for cards was the easy part - making something fun by getting the balance and use right was the hardest bit.
Shadowmoor was hilarious. Oona is so broken it's actually comical. You can play her in blue or black decks and because it's a block where most of the removal deals in -1/-1 counters, there's only a handful of unconditional removal that can kill her before she kills you. And she kills very quickly.
My power ranking of most busted limited cards:
1. Umezawa's Jitte
2. Pack Rat
3. Oona, Queen of the Fae
4. Jace, Memory Adept
5. Sprout Swarm
6. Wurmcoil Engine
7. Olivia Voldaren
8. Gideon Jura
9. Batterskull
10. Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Probably forgetting a few. I don't think Wingmate Roc belongs because of the raid requirement and I didn't count wraths wince you still have to win the game afterwards. Martial Coup maybe I guess? Was Skullclamp busted? I only played one Mirrodin prerelease before I called quits. :lol
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I wish they hadn't decided that because Lorwyn was poorly received that they can't do lighthearted stuff anymore. It's the block I most regret missing out on. Plus, it really has been a long time since we've done elves, goblins, merfolks, etc. I know they were played out at one point, but we're already returning to Zendikar, so I feel enough time has passed. Plus, considering how most of the new influx came in post Lorwyn, there really is no telling of lighthearted can work. I imagine it would be well positioned after yet another set revolving around world ending wars.
Why were the multicolor Gods "botches" at 7 devotion instead of 6? They of course would have been more powerful but a lot of them still saw moderate play and one less devotion needed wouldn't have saved the ones obviously not made with competition in mind (see Kruphix).
I will agree that Theros was the best set of that block and the follow ups on Monstrous and Devotion left a lot to be desired. Considering devotion stratgies were/have been doing well with pretty only Theros set with relevant cards there is an argument that the strategies may have become even more oppressive if good Devotion cards were printed in the last two sets.
I played pretty much all the formats those cards were in. Sprout Swarm was beyond obnoxious but no way was it killing you with as much speed and decisiveness as any of the cards on your list below it. It was a little harder to answer (you needed counters or discard or to race) but the other cards on that list just CRUSHED you in a few turns if unanswered. Sprout Swarm was more of a slow death more often than not.
For what its worth, Elves, Goblins and Merfolk are all native to Zendikar. I dunno if we'll get tribal cards for them but I feel pretty confident a few strong creatures of those types will incidentally appear.
It was slow, but not that slow. All thanks to Convoke. Without Convoke, it'd have been a fair card. After only a couple of turns, it's possible to build 3/4 saprolings a turn and if you had one of the fungus that boosted your saprolings, your opponent will die fairly swiftly. It completely warped Time Spiral limited. Pros even advocated taking it if you weren't in green, since it only costs a single green and the saprolings pay for every additional green.
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