Support NeoGAF

[kirblar]

avrillives asked: Ask me again in a year : )

Is there a mechanic that you really thought you’d never bring back that you did?

hmmmmm

He did mention earlier that Affinity for Artifacts is not off the table (And it shouldn't be.)

edit: also

quincognito asked: A change to the list of evergreen mechanics.

What do the players never see coming?

+prowess, -landwalk/intimidate seems to be happening.

 

[ultron87]

At the very least, they should have keyworded it as "prowess x".

That seems fine when you're talking about one creature, but the single version of the ability is really nice for big boards with multiples. Now you can just know "okay, there's been two Prowess triggers and three Prowess guys over there" and have a good idea in your head where everything is at. It becomes tougher to intuit a board state if there's two Prowess 1s and a Prowess 3. And you probably don't want to make that many cards with Prowess > 1 anyway since that gets out of hand quick. So just have the nice clean version and make your Cunning Breezedancer with the non keyword version when you need it.

 

[SigmasonicX]

hmmmmm

He did mention earlier that Affinity for Artifacts is not off the table (And it shouldn't be.)

He's been pretty open about wanting to bring back affinity for a while, though. I actually think it may be madness. He said this two years ago:

aazadan asked: Where does Madness or something similar rank on the Storm Scale?

Madness is a 7. It has a bunch of complication issues and wasn’t beloved so it’s possible it could come back but I’d say more unlikely than likely.

But a few days ago, he's been saying this:
First

mrmond4y asked: Do you think we'll se Madness again? And would it still be in White/Green/Blue, or has it moved completely to Rakdos now?

Madness is the kind of mechanic which would require the right environment to return.

Second, saying which one is more likely to return

normandean asked: Madness or flanking?

Madness.

 

[kirblar]

I actually loathe madness.

 

["God's Beard!"]

UR Dragons is dominating my local scene.

Think my Sidisi Whip deck needs to be retired. Sidisi is fun but man, she's so frail.

Gonna change things up and go Abzan Whip. Seems like it'd be a more durable midrange archetype for my personal style.

Sidisi Whip still the best, yo

I tested Reid Duke's list at a PPTQ today then made some changes I felt were necessary:

Sultai Midrange

Creatures(25):

• 4 Sylvan Caryatid
• 4 Satyr Wayfinder
• 4 Courser of Kruphix
• 4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
• 2 Sidisi, Undead Visier
• 3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
• 1 Torrent Elemental
• 1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
• 1 Dragonlord Silumgar
• 1 Hornet Queen

Spells(9):

• 2 Hero's Downfall
• 4 Murderous Cut
• 3 Thoughtseize

Enchantments(2):

• 2 Whip of Erebos

Land(24):

• 4 Opulent Palace
• 3 Temple of Malady
• 2 Temple of Mystery
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 3 Swamp
• 1 Island
• 2 Forest
• 3 Llanowar Wastes
• 2 Yavimaya Coast

Sideboard(15):

• 1 Treasure Cruise
• 2 Sultai Charm
• 2 Drown in Sorrow
• 2 Bile Blight
• 2 Disdainful Stroke
• 2 Negate
• 1 Thoughtseize
• 1 Soul of Innistrad
• 2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Reid Duke's list really attracted me with all the diversity, but all the cards really play together like you wouldn't believe. It really feels like a 75-card deck instead of a deck with a sideboard.

I got to make some crazy plays today, I even used Sidisi to tutor up a Thoughtseize to ensure the lock. Both silumgars worked waaay better than I expected and I just felt better about the deck with the strong top-end. 2 out of my 3 losses were to straight up mana screw(which is also how Duke lost the invitational), so I cut the Duke's Rec Sage for another land. I also thought Soul was pretty mediocre so I moved it to the side in favor of the third tasigur from my old list.

 

[charlequin]

At the very least, they should have keyworded it as "prowess x".

But that would keep it from being evergreen! (Not to mention that you're never gonna do a value higher than 2, which you can just write as "Prowess, Prowess" anyway.)

+prowess, -landwalk/intimidate seems to be happening.

Definitely, but I think there's gotta be more to it than that. If you just cut Intimidate you stop having a red/black ability or any evasion for either, and Prowess doesn't solve that problem. (Also I'd be surprised if they tackle Intimidate without dealing with the two worst evergreens, Regeneration and Protection.)

 

[kirblar]

I wish they'd just make Regeneration work like Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but that doesn't seem to be on the table. Protection is definitely worth dropping, though.

 

[ultron87]

Tenacious Dead's ability is the regenerate replacement I'd prefer. That's how a lot of people think it works at first.

Edit: Also, dying and returning from the graveyard handles all the messy stuff about regeneration like removing it from combat and taking any marked damage off.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Tenacious Dead's ability is the regenerate replacement I'd prefer. That's how a lot of people think it works at first.

Edit: Also, dying and returning from the graveyard handles all the messy stuff about regeneration like removing it from combat and taking any marked damage off.

Reassembling Skeleton too godlike

 

[kirblar]

Tenacious Dead's ability is the regenerate replacement I'd prefer. That's how a lot of people think it works at first.

Edit: Also, dying and returning from the graveyard handles all the messy stuff about regeneration like removing it from combat and taking any marked damage off.

Yeah, that'd be fine.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Replacing regenerate with "return from graveyard" doesn't keep the functionality of auras and counters remaining on the creature, though.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";158872009]Sidisi Whip still the best, yo

I tested Reid Duke's list at a PPTQ today then made some changes I felt were necessary:

Sultai Midrange

Creatures(25):

• 4 Sylvan Caryatid
• 4 Satyr Wayfinder
• 4 Courser of Kruphix
• 4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
• 2 Sidisi, Undead Visier
• 3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
• 1 Torrent Elemental
• 1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
• 1 Dragonlord Silumgar
• 1 Hornet Queen

Spells(9):

• 2 Hero's Downfall
• 4 Murderous Cut
• 3 Thoughtseize

Enchantments(2):

• 2 Whip of Erebos

Land(24):

• 4 Opulent Palace
• 3 Temple of Malady
• 2 Temple of Mystery
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 3 Swamp
• 1 Island
• 2 Forest
• 3 Llanowar Wastes
• 2 Yavimaya Coast

Sideboard(15):

• 1 Treasure Cruise
• 2 Sultai Charm
• 2 Drown in Sorrow
• 2 Bile Blight
• 2 Disdainful Stroke
• 2 Negate
• 1 Thoughtseize
• 1 Soul of Innistrad
• 2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

[/QUOTE]
That looks like a really fun toolbox deck. I think it was the lack of the expensive cards in my deck that hurt it (Thoughtseize, Courser, etc). Milling up a zombie army feels amazing though, can't argue that.

But holy hell, the Abzan Whip I just threw together feels terrific. I'm going to run with it for a while before I finalize the decklist, but it definitely feels more comfortable to me in the midrange arena.

 

[charlequin]

Edit: Also, dying and returning from the graveyard handles all the messy stuff about regeneration like removing it from combat and taking any marked damage off.

Yeah, but it makes regenerators with ETBs/LTBs insane.

 

["God's Beard!"]

But holy hell, the Abzan Whip I just threw together feels terrific. I'm going to run with it for a while before I finalize the decklist, but it definitely feels more comfortable to me in the midrange arena.

I hate not having access to negate in a whip deck. The weakness of abzan is that you get burned out so easily without the whip and all the decks that burns you can kill the whip. I always felt like the abzan whip decks looked a lot better than they played. And I played a lot of Abzan Whip.

 

[The Technomancer]

Prowess as blue evergreen seems like a lock now, it's the fit they've been looking for

 

[The Technomancer]

That seems fine when you're talking about one creature, but the single version of the ability is really nice for big boards with multiples. Now you can just know "okay, there's been two Prowess triggers and three Prowess guys over there" and have a good idea in your head where everything is at. It becomes tougher to intuit a board state if there's two Prowess 1s and a Prowess 3. And you probably don't want to make that many cards with Prowess > 1 anyway since that gets out of hand quick. So just have the nice clean version and make your Cunning Breezedancer with the non keyword version when you need it.

Unnumbered Prowess is totally fine for the reasons you outlined. Unnumbered Unleash is the one I'm still scratching my head over

 

[Crocodile]

I feel the topic of Prowess as evergreen has come up before. Ah well, seems all the more likely now. Good I say, after Delve it was the best mechanic in the block with, like Delve, a lot of build around me potential (though a lot easier to develop than Delve).

I feel they've been talking about a change in evergreen keywords for a while now too. I wonder if Magic Origins will be the time they drop that "bomb". I'm concerned how that will play out though as Protection is useful as a development tool to be used sparingly and losing intimidate is a big deal for Jund colors in limited.

Because the gold gods generally didn't see play, and when they did see play, they were barely able to turn into creatures in their games. Keranos sees play as a 1x SB card, but never activates. Pharika sees play as a 1-x mirror-breaker of sorts. The only two that really saw any decent play in multiples was Ephara, because her ability is nutty, and Xenagos back when R/G monsters was a thing. But even then both started disappearing from standard lists last season,.

I don't think Devotion needed the follow-up, it was clearly saturated well enough in the first two sets. The problem was with how everything else was handled-f or instance, BOTG clearly did not have enough mechanics playing in it, and JIN had too many.

Having cards come in at slightly under the desired power level seems to me as merely unfortunate rather than a huge screw up. I can't disagree with the rest.

 

[RadioHammer500]

2 questions for you Magic guys

1. who would you consider the greatest player of all time in the history of Magic?

2. who would you consider the greatest Deck Builder?

 

[kirblar]

The explanation was just totally awful though for the change- adding a +1 to them "because gold cards are always 2" still means that you have to play a lot of gold cards to make them work consistently, which is going to put a lot of pressure on your mana.

 

[Yeef]

Unnumbered unleash was fine. All of the unleash creatures were on-curve if you didn't unleash them and above curve if you did (with the exception of Rakdos Drake). An unleash creature that came in with more than one counter would need to be below curve when not unleashed, thereby making the decision to unleash less interesting. The only other way I can see doing it is to have another drawback for it having a counter. Something like:

Rakdos Clown BR
Creature
Unleash 2
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose life equal to the number of +1/+1 counters on ~.
2/2

Even that seems pretty strong. Having higher unleash numbers would need to be isolated toward the top of the curve, and at that point I don't think it would matter much.

 

[charlequin]

I feel they've been talking about a change in evergreen keywords for a while now too. I wonder if Magic Origins will be the time they drop that "bomb".

Rosewater's been hinting at it since before KTK came out so it's gotta be soon. If it's not Origins it'll definitely be BFZ.

I'm concerned how that will play out though as Protection is useful as a development tool to be used sparingly and losing intimidate is a big deal for Jund colors in limited.

I don't actually think Protection is that important (there are non-keyworded mechanics they can use to fill the void in most cases) but the point about Intimidate is exactly why I don't think they'll ditch it without some kind of plan in place to fill its role (just like they didn't ditch Fear without Intimidate to take its place.)

 

[kirblar]

Just using conditional unblockables is probably just fine.

 

[charlequin]

2 questions for you Magic guys

1. who would you consider the greatest player of all time in the history of Magic?

2. who would you consider the greatest Deck Builder?

Number 1 is an easy call for me -- with some latter-day success on the books, I think Finkel tips over Kai for the #1 spot.

2 is tougher. I think it's harder to drill down on exactly what the metrics are for this. Wafo-Tapa? Saito? Zvi would definitely be a safe choice.

Just using conditional unblockables is probably just fine.

Black isn't usually supposed to get that, tho.

 

[ultron87]

Replacing regenerate with "return from graveyard" doesn't keep the functionality of auras and counters remaining on the creature, though.

That'd be the biggest change certainly. The "puts pant on me" target is handled by hexproof pretty well, so you wouldn't lose that game plan entirely or anything.

Yeah, but it makes regenerators with ETBs/LTBs insane.

I suppose Skeletal Vampire would become the proverbial nuts, yes.

 

["God's Beard!"]

My favorite match at the PPTQ today was the one I lost against Narset Control. And I mean the creature Narset. Deck was wild, and I got burned out when I had super lethal on board both games. Fantastic, fantastic mach and I was super grateful for my opponent. 2nd favorite was against a GR aggro player with a real head on his shoulders for playing around cards. Both of us playing several turns ahead really made for a great match that played out pretty far away from how the match usually goes.

Even though I lost the tournament, I was really happy to play today. I don't always feel like that.

2 questions for you Magic guys

1. who would you consider the greatest player of all time in the history of Magic?

2. who would you consider the greatest Deck Builder?

1. Jon Finkel is an easy answer, but dude is just so consistently impressive at the highest levels of competition, over a very long time period.

2. Depending on how you define deck building skill, probably LSV? He was key in defining both Legacy Elves and Birthing Pod in Modern, right? Plus, he's always polishing current decks in every format and has had a huge impact across Magic decks for a long while. I could be pretty off-base here, though.

 

[WanderingWind]

Prowess is a perfect mechanic, so it definitely should be evergreen. I don't like the fact that black might be losing its only primary evasion though. Then again, they use it so rarely , it probably wouldn't affect anything.

Regenerate is a tricky one to fix. It's a necessary mechanic, but the way it functions is obviously messed up. But none of the proposed fixes work any better. Going to the graveyard borks interaction with auras, so that's a definite no go, imo. Plus, having a potential repeatable ETB trigger is just screaming for abuse, so it's doubly a bad idea.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why not just have more cards with temporary indestructibility? Makes things easier to understand even if you lose some of the more subtle interactions. It stops basically everything regenerate would anyway.

 

[WanderingWind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";158895121]Why not just have more cards with temporary indestructibility? Makes things easier to understand even if you lose some of the more subtle interactions. It stops basically everything regenerate would anyway.[/QUOTE]

Like, sort of a reverse fading? I think that could work.

Unstoppable 3 (When this creature enters the battelfield, place 3 counters on it. If it would go to the graveyard for any reason, instead tap it and remove 1 counter. If there are no more counters, place it into the graveyard).

Only not templated like ass

 

[Crocodile]

A lot of these regeneration fixes feel abusabe in ways regeneration currently is not. If any of them were the actual change I'd feel a bit uncomfortable.

 

[SigmasonicX]

The problem with indestructible compared to regeneration is that regeneration has the built-in weakness that it wears off after one prevented death, allowing it to be costed cheaper than it otherwise would be, while that can't be done with indestructible. Plus, using indestructible does have flavor issues--skeletons and trolls regenerate, not become temporarily indestructible.

 

[Joe Molotov]

That feel when you're playing RDW and your first two opponents are playing U/B control.

Lost to White Weenie and R/W Aggro, but 4-2 was enough to barely make the Top 8 cut, and it was after 1am so everyone just took a prize split. (Then some dickhead had the nerve to pull a Narset, Sarkhan, and a Deathmist Raptor, wtf?)

Did a draft tonight, and some dude dropped a Skywise Teachings on me twice, omg fuck that shit. I had no enchantment hate and he had about 20 noncreature spells or some shit. I had Clone Legion (lol) but even that only held him off a few extra turns.

 

[y2dvd]

Esper Control with dragons and Silumgar's Scorn and Foul-Tongue Invocation is so fun. Or am I a bad person for enjoying it as much as I do?

 

[kirblar]

Esper Control with dragons and Silumgar's Scorn and Foul-Tongue Invocation is so fun. Or am I a bad person for enjoying it as much as I do?

Nope, James Buckingham is one of my best friends and when he and Soorani agree on a deck, it's legit.

 

[Firemind]

2. who would you consider the greatest Deck Builder?

Michael J. Flores

loljk we all know GB is the greatest deckbuilder of our time.

I'm glad I offloaded the Sarkhans immediately after the events ended. It's taking a dive. IRL it's getting dangerously close to 10 bucks too. Should have waited a little bit longer. RIP Sarkhan.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Michael J. Flores

loljk we all know GB is the greatest deckbuilder of our time.

I'm glad I offloaded the Sarkhans immediately after the events ended. It's taking a dive. IRL it's getting dangerously close to 10 bucks too. Should have waited a little bit longer. RIP Sarkhan.

Sarkhan is 18 in paper still?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The best deck builder is Sam Black. Come on guys.

 

[Firemind]

Sarkhan is 18 in paper still?

Not here it ain't. If you have Sarkhans I'd sell them now. I don't think it's going to hold much longer after the timmy allure wears off. At least Narset has been appearing in decks!

 

[Angry Grimace]

Not here it ain't. If you have Sarkhans I'd sell them now. I don't think it's going to hold much longer after the timmy allure wears off. At least Narset has been appearing in decks!

I mean except mine. I have three and there all in my deck.

Incidentally, I've played against Narset control decks and have been utterly unimpressed by her contribution. Every game I lost I would have lost anyways and vice versa.

 

[RadioHammer500]

Number 1 is an easy call for me -- with some latter-day success on the books, I think Finkel tips over Kai for the #1 spot.

2 is tougher. I think it's harder to drill down on exactly what the metrics are for this. Wafo-Tapa? Saito? Zvi would definitely be a safe choice.



Black isn't usually supposed to get that, tho.

it's amazing..why are the best deck builders NEVER the best players

Wafo Tapa is a better deck builder than Finkel...but Finkel is a better player

why is that? its always surprising to me

 

[ElyrionX]

it's amazing..why are the best deck builders NEVER the best players

Wafo Tapa is a better deck builder than Finkel...but Finkel is a better player

why is that? its always surprising to me

It's two entirely different skill sets?

 

[Jhriad]

Like, sort of a reverse fading? I think that could work.

Unstoppable 3 (When this creature enters the battelfield, place 3 counters on it. If it would go to the graveyard for any reason, instead tap it and remove 1 counter. If there are no more counters, place it into the graveyard).

Only not templated like ass

Not sure I'd like an evergreen ability that not only made me keep more counters around but also wasn't great over a long haul.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Not sure I'd like an evergreen ability that not only made me keep more counters around but also wasn't great over a long haul.

For some reason, people are very eager to retemplate Regeneration and then say it is redesigned.

 

[kirblar]

It's two entirely different skill sets?

Seriously. Rietzl's said its his least favorite part of PT prep.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Sarkhan is 18 in paper still?

I got rid of mine as part of a trade for a Steam Vents and a foil Delver of Secrets.

Michael J. Flores

loljk we all know GB is the greatest deckbuilder of our time.

Thanks for being a fan, Firemind and all my other GB's Jeebies™, I do it for y'all. Just for the shoutout, I'm gonna hit you with a little GAF-exclusive preview of the remix.

 

[bigkrev]

2 questions for you Magic guys

1. who would you consider the greatest player of all time in the history of Magic?

2. who would you consider the greatest Deck Builder?

1. It's Finkel. You could have debated that Kai was better a decade ago, but it really isn't a contest anymore

2. This one is tough. A few years ago, Chapin wrote a series of articles and concluded that Zvi was the best deckbuilder of all time, and I find it hard to argue against him. Saito would also be on my shortlist of people

 

[Angry Grimace]

hmmmmm

He did mention earlier that Affinity for Artifacts is not off the table (And it shouldn't be.)

edit: also

+prowess, -landwalk/intimidate seems to be happening.

I was sort of okay with Intimidate so long as it wasn't stapled to fucking Lifebane Zombies.

Landwalk and Intimidate haven't really shown up much recently, so I think they're the obvious targets, especially given the random hosing nature of it and the fact that Landwalk is easily replaced by "can't be blocked." I know some people don't like protection, but I think they like it, just not all that much as a static ability (e.g. they seem to prefer giving you ways to obtain it through Gods Willing, Feat of Resistance, etc.).

 

[RadioHammer500]

1. It's Finkel. You could have debated that Kai was better a decade ago, but it really isn't a contest anymore

2. This one is tough. A few years ago, Chapin wrote a series of articles and concluded that Zvi was the best deckbuilder of all time, and I find it hard to argue against him. Saito would also be on my shortlist of people

so Finkel as the best player and Zvi as the best deck builder of all time would most likely be the general consensus among magic players and fans

 

["God's Beard!"]

My opponent Thoughtseized my Torrent Elemental when they had Anafenza out.

 

[Jhriad]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";158940001]My opponent Thoughtseized my Torrent Elemental when they had Anafenza out.
[/QUOTE]

Mistakes have been made.

 

[Transhuman]

4x Nyx Weaver
4x Grim Guardian
4x Forgeborn Oreads
4x Erebos's Emissary
4x Purphoros, God of the Forge
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Commune with the Gods
4x Scout the Borders
4x Rally the Ancestors
1x Mogis's Maurauder
23x Land stuff

Fill graveyard with enchantment creatures with Erebos's Emissary, Satyr Wayfinder, Nyx Weaver, Commune with the Gods, and Scout the Borders. Cast Rally the Ancestors, win the game instantly?