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Magic: the Gathering |OT4| Izzet Me; Izzet You? A Love Story

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S

SigmasonicX

Member
Jhriad said:
Spoilers won't matter to anyone that isn't already into the game so the excitement we get from things spoiled at PAX, whatever they might be, isn't necessarily going to translate to people that just wander in. How long will our thread be outside of the Community section? If we're doing this experiment in the hopes of drawing in new players and/or reintroducing folks to the game then we should try to make sure our time outside of community is centered around prerelease and release, not an event that probably won't even draw many people to the game that aren't already interested or engaged with it. If the thread is being shifted over to cover the release of BFZ, which was my understanding, then putting the thread out there over a month before the set actually releases probably isn't a good idea. I doubt we're going to last a month before we're moved back. This is especially important if we're attempting to create a template for how we might be able to shift the thread outside of community temporarily to cover set releases.

Maybe I'm just incredibly unclear as to what the reasoning behind the move is to begin with and I'm making poor assumptions based on the wrong information. That's certainly possible.
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The idea is that we create a new thread when set spoilers start (or when a special event held soon before spoiler weeks reveals a bunch of cards), then move that thread to Community at some undetermined time after the set is fully revealed. Then the thread is moved back to OT for the next set in the block then moved back to Community. Then a new thread is made for the next block.

I think creating the OT thread before the set is fully revealed has the benefit that new people aren't flooded with new cards, and instead can just see a couple of cards at a time. You claim that new people won't get excited about new cards, but I'm sure our own excitement can get them excited. Plus, though I keep mentioning new people, there are also a ton of GAFers that used to play Magic and don't anymore but still have some interest, as demonstrated by the Magic threads that sometimes appear in OT (like when that Black Lotus was put on eBay); and there are also the guys in the Magic Duels thread that don't come to this thread.

Also, my assumption behind OT-Community dynamics is that threads are allowed in OT as long as there are new things to discuss, and moved to Community when there isn't anything new. Spoiler season is when there are new things to discuss.

And in any case, charlequin seems to be fine with this idea. Barring someone flooding the thread with player asscracks, I don't think the thread is in danger of being moved back to Community before spoilers end.
 
J

Jhriad

Member
SigmasonicX said:
And in any case, charlequin seems to be fine with this idea. Barring someone flooding the thread with player asscracks, I don't think the thread is in danger of being moved back to Community before spoilers end.
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It still feels like trying to get out there for PAX is a little overly ambitious if we're trying to make this a recurrent affair. If we move the thread back to Community a week after release that would mean we're in OT for a month and a half. If Charlequin says that's okay, cool.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Jhriad said:
It still feels like trying to get out there for PAX is a little overly ambitious if we're trying to make this a recurrent affair. If we move the thread back to Community a week after release that would mean we're in OT for a month and a half. If Charlequin says that's okay, cool.
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The set doesn't come out for a month and there is limited information you could put in before PAX. Don't really get why we're talking about putting it out so early.
 
Y

Yeef

Member
Angry Grimace said:
The set doesn't come out for a month and there is limited information you could put in before PAX. Don't really get why we're talking about putting it out so early.
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I think when spoilers start on the mothership is the most logical time. That's also when the mechanics articles come out and we have a good idea of exactly what the set is trying to do.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
So, I'm watching a little bit of the Pokemon TCG championship, and even with all my knowledge of the Pokemon TCG coming from the "fad" phase of the game (and the game is barely recognizable today compared to then), I can tell these commentators suck- if I, an uninformed viewer, can tell what's going on better than these 2 guys, it's a real problem. The video feed/overlay is also a confusing mess.

Maybe it's harder than we thought to provide decent streaming coverage of a TCG?
 
M

Matriox

Member
So I've been out all weekend with my family (ended up getting engaged! We do things backwards considering we already own a home and have a son lol), but can anyone tell me why Cloudstone Curio is being bought out? Any particular deck or just a unique card?
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Matriox said:
So I've been out all weekend with my family (ended up getting engaged! We do things backwards considering we already own a home and have a son lol), but can anyone tell me why Cloudstone Curio is being bought out? Any particular deck or just a unique card?
Click to expand...

No clue but I built a sweet Legacy deck using it that sometimes works lol

I'm sure that's not what it is.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Angry Grimace said:
The set doesn't come out for a month and there is limited information you could put in before PAX. Don't really get why we're talking about putting it out so early.
Click to expand...

Yeef said:
I think when spoilers start on the mothership is the most logical time. That's also when the mechanics articles come out and we have a good idea of exactly what the set is trying to do.
Click to expand...

The draft OT I've made seems to have enough information. We have the story, preview cards, and most if not all of the named mechanics. I'm not sure what benefit there would be to waiting in that regard, especially since the OP can just be updated later.

I'm noticing concern over the thread being kicked out of OT early, and maybe charlequin can chime in, but I don't think there's a major risk of that happening. For instance, the Gravity Falls and Steven Universe OTs see a fair amount of activity even during months long hiatuses, but don't get moved to Community. (The same applies to MLP, but that may be a special case due to already having a Community thread)

Reposting my reasoning for thinking creating the thread for PAX would be better:
* If the purpose of creating the OT topic before spoiler week is to share the most exciting part of the set with new members, when they unveil the new cards, then it makes more sense to create the topic before PAX, when the most exciting cards of the set will be spoiled and there is more pageantry.
* Thus far, only about five cards have been spoiled. If the topic is made after PAX, then around 20 cards would already have been spoiled by the time the topic is made.
* Wizards is hosting a livestream of the card unveiling events, and GAF is all about commenting on livestreams.
* The unveiling events are even including non-Magic nerd celebrities like Wil Wheaton as hosts. It seems like Wizards is intentionally trying to draw in casual and new players.

To explain why I wish to make the thread while spoilers are being revealed and not when the set is released, I've had the chance to look at Magic threads before these OTs started, along with attempts to start up OTs for other TCGs, such as Cardfight Vanguard. I've noticed that most of them are created at random points, and thus all discussion is limited to people talking about how much they like the game and new players. Discussion quickly dies down because there is little to talk about.

Regardless, the reason I've been posting OT drafts and have been telling you guys about this plan in advance instead of just creating the thread on my own is so I can get everyone's input. If enough people think we should wait until before the first spoiler week starts, I'll wait, and if enough people are against going to OT, then we can stay in this thread.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Yeef said:
I think when spoilers start on the mothership is the most logical time. That's also when the mechanics articles come out and we have a good idea of exactly what the set is trying to do.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is what I'd like to do -- it's the most effective time if the thread's going to be informational, since it'll be well-situated for people who want to find out about current developments or go to prerelease/release events. The trend with gaming-side |OT|s has been to bring the threads closer and closer to the release, so they're more focused on actionable stuff (like playing the game) than speculation and hype. We can't follow the exact same principle here (waiting until the day of the set release would be pretty bad) but I am keeping that principle in mind.

In general, I want to stay away from the slow, draggy last stage of the rumor season, after the event blowout but before mothership previews, so waiting a week to September 7th accomplishes that.

Re: how long it'll stay in the OT, this is an experiment so we'll have to play it by ear, but I'd definitely prefer it to be until after the pre-release, which is also easier to swing if we start a little later.

Anyway, like I've said, this is kind of an experiment, so if we follow this approach and it goes okay we can tweak it for future set releases.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
After reading all of the arguments I think I come down on the side of waiting till the primary spoilers start. That gives us a good period from then until the pre-release for OT placement. We can always do it differently next time
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Haven't official spoilers often started the Monday after the PAX Prime blowout? Is there a big lag this year between the Blowout party and the mothership spoilers?
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Crocodile said:
Haven't official spoilers often started the Monday after the PAX Prime blowout? Is there a big lag this year between the Blowout party and the mothership spoilers?
Click to expand...

We do know that spoilers won't be starting the Monday after PAX, because MaRo stated on Blogatog that his article for that day is "Vorthos and Mel". It will almost certainly start the week after, though. The set is fully revealed the Friday of the week before prerelease (September 18), and they will have at least two weeks of previews, so previews should start on September 7.

Anyway, I suppose fair's fair. I'll hold off on creating the OT until the spoiler weeks start.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
Can't post the image, but it looks like fetches are in Commander. New art. Looks like a slide that is to be shown at Pax panel
 
O

OnPoint

Member
CNI3Qz9U8AEpNKt.jpg


I got you Krev.

Is this real life? I won't believe it until I see it for myself.

That Tarn art is SO bad from this angle, but I don't mind the Marsh Flats.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Otherwise this falls just barely within the realm of plausible (one huge chase card per deck keeps product orders high and ensures people are opening all five in big numbers so we don't get the unbalanced-orders issue from 2013) and it's pretty well within WotC's standard approach to style an enemy portion of a cycle that was printed normally elsewhere to match. But I'm not sure how someone could plausibly have one, but only one, of the PAX slides and be in a position to upload it.

That said, as always, the ultimate proof on these things is in the artwork. If it's fake, those five illustrations are sourced from somewhere online.
 
T

traveler

Not Wario
Best way to catchup on standard and modern metas after being out of the loop since nyx? Going to be at PAX so I'd like to be at least somewhat informed when watching world championship.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
I can't make out the flavor text at all, so can someone post them so I can see just how terrible they apparently are?
EDIT: Bigger picture here. Wow, those are bad. And don't make any sense. It's following the format of the Khans fetchlands, but there's no reason to at all. That last one in particular.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Yeah, there's an inverted-and-cropped version here that exactly matches the fake card, which is presumably where they grabbed it from: http://media.moddb.com/cache/images.../monolith_desert_by_wildweasel339-d5q3ggf.jpg

These guys have gotten better at this part over time, but Google Image Search will still find the original if you crop-n-swap it yourself.

EDIT: oh man it really is way more obvious at the can-read-stuff size: http://i.imgur.com/8ZmUIW3.jpg The Marsh Flats is a non-Magic piece Eytan Zana has had on his site for ages too.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Man that flavor text really did get fucked up. It should have been worded as "is" not "was" in the second part of the sentence. They're idiots for even trying, but at least get it right.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
I like this year's State of Design. Set out to make a cool dragon set and fuck up by making a cool Warlord set everybody likes better than your dragons lol

Seriously nobody gave a shit about the dragon stories but Alesha and Narset were everywhere. Plus, Khans was an insanely good draft format followed by two crap ones.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";176380512]I like this year's State of Design. Set out to make a cool dragon set and fuck up by making a cool Warlord set everybody likes better than your dragons lol

Seriously nobody gave a shit about the dragon stories but Alesha and Narset were everywhere. Plus, Khans was an insanely good draft format followed by two crap ones.[/QUOTE]

The only reason people gave a shit about Alesha was because she's a transsexual. Take that part away and it'd be generic MtG legendary creature #2753.

Narset had a legendary card and PW card in the same block. Of course, people would talk about her story more than the dragons.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Huh...that is far more honest a state of design then I'm used to. Normally the failures are couched in "but it wasn't that bad" or "but we learned a lot", this one has a fair amount of "yeah we fucked up"
 
K

kirblar

Member
The Technomancer said:
Huh...that is far more honest a state of design then I'm used to. Normally the failures are couched in "but it wasn't that bad" or "but we learned a lot", this one has a fair amount of "yeah we fucked up"
Click to expand...
I think DTK is a set where "too conservative" is actually a very valid criticism.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
State of Design link

I'm surprised he was as hard on Dragons as he was. But yeah, it clearly was the less interesting of the two large sets of the block. I do agree with him that going with smorph (cast face-down for (4), put a +1/+1 counter on it) would have been much more interesting than megamorph. I hadn't considered that the relatively lackluster reception to Dragons could also have been due to Fate Reforged having so many dragons already.

I'm also surprised that he seems to consider the draft format with Fate Reforged to be a success, given how you guys talk about it.

It's disappointing that we will no longer see the goals laid out for blocks, but it makes sense with there being two blocks a year now.

Also, they did this dumb re-edit of the Metamorphosis article (announcing the two-set block model), replacing the set code names whose official names we now know, but otherwise not editing the text, and replacing the card images with things that no longer reflect the theme.

The Technomancer said:
Huh...that is far more honest a state of design then I'm used to. Normally the failures are couched in "but it wasn't that bad" or "but we learned a lot", this one has a fair amount of "yeah we fucked up"
Click to expand...

He was pretty upfront last year about Born of the Gods.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
ElyrionX said:
The only reason people gave a shit about Alesha was because she's a transsexual. Take that part away and it'd be generic MtG legendary creature #2753.
Click to expand...
She's a pretty awesome EDH general and her personality in the story was cool (Until it turned out that she basically made the exact same choice the other Khans did).
 
T

Toxi

Banned
SigmasonicX said:
State of Design link

I'm surprised he was as hard on Dragons as he was. But yeah, it clearly was the less interesting of the two large sets of the block. I do agree with him that going with smorph (cast face-down for (4), put a +1/+1 counter on it) would have been much more interesting than megamorph. I hadn't considered that the relatively lackluster reception to Dragons could also have been due to Fate Reforged having so many dragons already.

I'm also surprised that he seems to consider the draft format with Fate Reforged to be a success, given how you guys talk about it.

It's disappointing that we will no longer see the goals laid out for blocks, but it makes sense with there being two blocks a year now.
Click to expand...
I found this point resonated with me.

#3: Dragons Needed More Variety

We spread the Dragons across all the colors, but we did little else to create variety. Baby Dragons were off the table because of the story (although I do wish I challenged this idea in retrospect), and as a result, all the Dragons tended to fall into the same size range. Looking back, I've now realized that if you're going to push a particular component design-wise, you have to look at how to increase variety so that you can make designs that feel very different from one another. Yes, Dragons of Tarkir had 26 Dragons, but they were just too similar to one another. We needed to work to give them a little more mechanical personality.
Click to expand...

It's true; one of the problems of having dragons across all five colors at the same size ranges is that you end up with a bunch of really samey cards at uncommon and rare.
 
J

Jhriad

Member
Matriox said:
Thanks, I spot a set of Evolutionary Leap too o_O

LOL the deck got 105th...
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It got 105th because he lost round one on day two and dropped to go play Legacy since I think he was trying to get more Open points to get into the SCG Players Championship or whatever it's called.. It showed really well on camera on day one though. I'd expect it to do worse once folks know what the deck is trying to do and focus their removal on some of the combo elements.

ElyrionX said:
The only reason people gave a shit about Alesha was because she's a transsexual. Take that part away and it'd be generic MtG legendary creature #2753.
Click to expand...

I picked up a playset of Alesha before her story came out because I thought the card was cool. Actually had it in a janky Mardu Warriors deck for a little while there.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Firemind said:
Ha! Baby dragons should have been considered! Who's the laughing stock now?
Click to expand...

Another option would have been to have dragonmen running around
to further tie in with Fairy Tail
. My understanding is that this is what viashino are supposed to be, but maybe they could all have the type "Dragon Viashino" to drive this point further, like how dryads in Theros also had the type nymph.
 
M

Maledict

Member
I think there's also a really valid angle of "Too much of a good thing is bad for you". Dragons were prized and loved partly *because* they are rare, unique and powerful Timmy like cards that occasionally get played by Spikes and Johnny.

Create two sets full of them and they lose all of that - barring the Elder Dragons, I honestly couldn't tell the difference between all the dragons. In particular, it just felt like a lot of them were the usual creatures that would fill those slots in a big creature set, but made as dragons instead of vampires / hydras / sphinx's etc.

Some things work well *because* they are rare. Like sugar, everyone likes a bit but give them too much and they get a bit sick.
 
K

kirblar

Member
The last time they tried this stunt (AVR) there weren't actually that many direct Angels because they needed to be white-based. The lesson likely lies there.
 
F

Firemind

Member
Maledict said:
I think there's also a really valid angle of "Too much of a good thing is bad for you". Dragons were prized and loved partly *because* they are rare, unique and powerful Timmy like cards that occasionally get played by Spikes and Johnny.

Create two sets full of them and they lose all of that - barring the Elder Dragons, I honestly couldn't tell the difference between all the dragons. In particular, it just felt like a lot of them were the usual creatures that would fill those slots in a big creature set, but made as dragons instead of vampires / hydras / sphinx's etc.

Some things work well *because* they are rare. Like sugar, everyone likes a bit but give them too much and they get a bit sick.
Click to expand...
I especially like the design of the dragon who has Flying and Super Prowess, and by like I mean LOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
I think there is a potentially easy out for Return to Tarkir: Ugin turns down the dragon faucet, Narset reveals to everyone what the clans used to be like, the non-dragons rise up and reclaim their lost colors, and bam, three-color clans and dragons in the same set. There is the issue that a story like this really wants the transition to be seen, but perhaps Wizards would prefer for the large set to not be full-on wedge while the small set is.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
They should have made the FRF and DTK dragons have different color identities, ie. allied and enemy color pairs. At leadt that would have got the EDH crowd more excited.
 
K

kirblar

Member
SigmasonicX said:
I think there is a potentially easy out for Return to Tarkir: Ugin turns down the dragon faucet, Narset reveals to everyone what the clans used to be like, the non-dragons rise up and reclaim their lost colors, and bam, three-color clans and dragons in the same set. There is the issue that a story like this really wants the transition to be seen, but perhaps Wizards would prefer for the large set to not be full-on wedge while the small set is.
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You get to recenter the clans in the correct color doing it this way, it works out for the best.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
And while I completely believe that R&D shouldn't design for EDH in regular expansions, calling these dragons "Elder Dragons" and then giving one of them a completely-useless-in-Elder-Dragon-Highlander ability was a stupid tone-deaf move.
 
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