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[Firemind]

Summer Bloom is so banned. Only question is when. (Deck is still decent without it, it's just not absurdly stupid.)

Also, F Tron.

Aren't the statistics screwed up because of that one guy stacking his opening hand every match?

also scglol

 

["God's Beard!"]

Aren't the statistics screwed up because of that one guy stacking his opening hand every match?

also scglol

You really have something against SCG tournaments, don't you?

 

[Firemind]

I mean, it made Tom Ross into a celebrity star.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I mean, it made Tom Ross into a celebrity star.

I mean, what do you want? They're pretty big tournaments, nobody is saying they're more valuable than GPs. It's not like there's anybody else running 500-man tournaments every weekend.

 

[kirblar]

Nah. Amulet isn't even that broken of a deck. Being a top tier deck doesn't necessarily mean things need to be banned in it.

Sam actually thought Bloom was probably a necessary ban.

 

[Firemind]

Watching people play Magic on Twitch is a lot like watching people play video games on Twitch. I want to play; not watch some idiot fumbling (unless they're attempting impossible speed runs or something.) The only things interesting about Magic tournaments are the new tech, metagame stats, the insightful deck techs and draft viewers.

Funny anecdote. I played against Tom Ross once at a PT. I was playing Ad Nauseum. He was playing Doran Rock which was probably my worst matchup. He had lethal on board but chose not to alpha strike for some reason, letting me stay alive for several turns and win eventually. It ended up being my only win vs. Doran. :lol

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The Amulet deck doesn't need any bans. It's just an absurdly fast ramp deck. Until it starts winning more than its share, all banning it would do is prove that WotC hates Modern.

 

[kirblar]

The Amulet deck doesn't need any bans. It's just an absurdly fast ramp deck. Until it starts winning more than its share, all banning it would do is prove that WotC hates Modern.

They likely won't touch it until the next Modern PT anyway, but its totally on the endangered list.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Protect Magic's Endangered Species! They killed all of the Second Sunrises and Seething Songs, and they're coming after the Summer Blooms now. With your donation of just $1 a day, we can keep these poor, innocent combo decks safe from predators who want nothing more than to suck all of the joy and fun out of a format that has precious little of either left. Won't you do something? Or will you sit idly by while the Wizards destroy yet another format?

 

[Firemind]

Games of commander have to end. If your deck is winning more than its share in your playgroup, that can become a problem. But I don't believe that how the deck wins really matters; as long as everybody got to actually play the game and do meaningful things then the game should be considered a success.

The real problems in EDH are the durdly decks that put up Moats and Ensnaring Bridges and slow the pace of the game down to a crawl. I'd rather see someone Tooth and Nail to pull down Triskelion and Mikaeus or Birthing Pod up a Kiki-Jiki combo than have to deal with pillow forts that make the game last three hours before something meaningful finally happens.

Also, infinite combos just don't work on MTGO. Deadeye Navigator/Palinchron may technically make infinite mana, but it never actually happens online.

I agree with all of this.

The real struggle is deciding what to cut. Need to cut like ten cards.

General
Niv-Mizzet

Second in command
Dack Fayden

Artifacts
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Thran Dynamo
Worn Powerstone
Gilded Lotus
Coalition Relic
Everflowing Chalice
Izzet Signet
Fire Diamond
Sky Diamond
Coldsteel Heart
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Solemn Simulacrum
Phyrexian Metamorph
Voltaic Key
Defense Grid
Sensei's Divining Top
Sculpting Steel
Helm of Awakening
Stone Calendar
Memory Jar
Krak-Clan Ironworks

Tutors
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Dizzy Spell
Gamble
Merchant Scroll
Transmute Artifact
Fabricate
Trinket Mage
Drift of Phantasms
Firemind's Foresight

Draw
Brainstorm
Thirst for Knowledge
Compulsive Research
Frantic Search
Fact or Fiction
Gush
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Wheel of Fortune
Reforge the Soul
Windfall
Timetwister
Time Spiral
Time Reversal
Breakthrough
Stroke of Genius
Enter the Infinite

Rituals
High Tide
Simian Spirit Guide
Seething Song
Mana Geyser

Enchantments
Curiosity
Ophidian Eye
Future Sight
Omniscience

Enablers
Show and Tell
Turnabout
Reiterate
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Tresspass

Permission
Force of Will
Pact of Negation
Arcane Denial
Swan's Song
Remand
Foil
Thwart
Cyclonic Rift

Win
Conflagrate

 

[inthrall]

.

I would cut Simian Spirit Guide, Swan Song, one of the Diamonds, Lotus Petal, Fireminds Foresight, Dizzy Spell, Reforge the Soul at a glance.

 

[acheron_xl]

And you could replace several counters with a Forbid.

And why aren't you playing Epic Experiment? That card would be bananas in your deck.

Edit: and you're running red and a ton of ramp, so I would, personally, play Insurrection. It's one of the finest multiplayer laxatives around. If you need it in your group.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Protect Magic's Endangered Species! They killed all of the Second Sunrises and Seething Songs, and they're coming after the Summer Blooms now. With your donation of just $1 a day, we can keep these poor, innocent combo decks safe from predators who want nothing more than to suck all of the joy and fun out of a format that has precious little of either left. Won't you do something? Or will you sit idly by while the Wizards destroy yet another format?

This is why I'm trading off most of my modern cards to get legacy stuff. Modern isn't fun, and it gets less fun over time.

 

[inthrall]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166803295]This is why I'm trading off most of my modern cards to get legacy stuff. Modern isn't fun, and it gets less fun over time.[/QUOTE]

I would play legacy if it didn't require $400-$600 of lands for the cheapest decks

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166803295]This is why I'm trading off most of my modern cards to get legacy stuff. Modern isn't fun, and it gets less fun over time.[/QUOTE]

Dude. Legacy is garbage.

 

[duxstar]

If you play combo in modernyou should kind of expect your deck to eventually be banned. I have been playing magic for about a year or 2 now (started in Theros block, so a year and a half).

I still hate playing against counter - draw decks, and straight combo decks where one person goes off and wins the game and you just feel helpless against it. Amulet is one of those decks, If it's just going off and your sitting there staring at your hand and on turn 2 they go Summer bloom, tap untap 3 Gruul Turf or Breeding Pool, Play Primevil Titan, go get a land that makes it get +2/+0, give it double strike.

You can tell yourself its fun for you, and that new players should just suck it up, but why would they? Magic is trying to grow and I'm sorry but Counterspell is too busted for standard and creates an unenjoyable environment. Just look at how fun it was playing against Esper Dragons, Counter spell, Counter spell, ok that guy resolves, kill that guy at your end step Ojutai, swing 5, counterspell, counterspell, dig through time removal counterspell, Ojutai kills you.

In what sequence has the other person you know, played magic. They've just been denied the ability to play magic, and it frustrates them. Hell it frustrates me and I've gotten used to it and do pretty damn good against control decks. I'm just saying I'm sure something will be banned soon, and if it was up to me infinite combo's or solitaire would be banned in all magic. I get that there are a subset of players out there that like it, but it is such a hindrance to newer players that I see why wizards would try to hate it out of any format they are trying to promote.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Well, Modern isn't a format for new players, so we shouldn't be sculpting the format to cater to people who can't handle running into a bad matchup.

It's a common misconception that Magic owes it to you to give you a fighting chance when you sit down to play a match. It doesn't. Sometimes you draw a pile of lands, or mulligan to four. Sometimes your opponent just combos off in your face. Sometimes they just "have it all" and everything you play gets countered, destroyed, or outclassed.

The game owes you nothing. You do not inherently deserve a fair game. Sometimes you will lose matches out of your control - that's just how the game works. Banning combo decks just masks the variance inherent to the game - it doesn't actually make it any less variant.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Dude. Legacy is garbage.

Well I hate Modern so it's either build Legacy or just stick with Standard forever. I really don't have interest in getting back in Modern. I've already traded off most of my Grixis Twin deck this week.

 

[Transhuman]

Sliver Overlord

Amoeboid Changeling
Animate Dead
Basal Sliver
Blur Sliver
Bonescythe Sliver
Brainstorm
Brood Sliver
Constricting Sliver
Crypt Sliver
Crystalline Sliver
Cultivate
Demonic Tutor
Diffusion Sliver
Dormant Sliver
Enlightened Tutor
Essence Sliver
Explore
Firewake Sliver
Frenetic Sliver
Galerider Sliver
Gemhide Sliver
Green Sun's Zenith
Harmonic Sliver
Heart Sliver
Hibernation Sliver
Homing Sliver
Hunter Sliver
Intruder Alarm
Kodama's Reach
Magma Sliver
Mana Echoes
Manamorphose
Manaweft Sliver
Metallic Sliver
Mindlash Sliver
Muscle Sliver
Necrotic Sliver
Noxious Revival
Plated Sliver
Prophet of Kruphix
Quick Sliver
Realm Razer
Rewind
Screeching Sliver
Sedge Sliver
Sentinel Sliver
Shadow Sliver
Shapesharer
Shifting Sliver
Sidewinder Sliver
Sinew Sliver
Skyshroud Ranger
Sliver Hivelord
Striking Sliver
Summer Bloom
Synapse Sliver
Syphon Sliver
Telekinetic Sliver
Training Grounds
Two-Headed Sliver
Virulent Sliver
Ward Sliver
Wild Pair
Wild Ricochet
Winged Sliver
Winter Orb

Ancient Ziggurat
Azorius Chancery
Boros Garrison
Cavern of Souls
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dimir Aqueduct
Evolving Wilds
Exotic Orchard
Forest
Gemstone Mine
Golgari Rot Farm
Gruul Turf
Island
Izzet Boilerworks
Mana Confluence
Mountain
Mutavault
Orzhov Basilica
Plains
Rakdos Carnarium
Reflecting Pool
Selesnya Sanctuary
Simic Growth Chamber
Sliver Hive
Swamp
Terramorphic Expanse
Vesuva
Vivid Crag
Vivid Creek
Vivid Grove
Vivid Marsh
Vivid Meadow

They said making an EDH deck would be a good way to meet new people and make friends. Not with this decklist.

Niv-Mizzet

Curiosity

Me and you against the world, Firemind.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

You need a Patriarch's Bidding.

 

[Transhuman]

You need a Patriarch's Bidding.

So expensive though. I put this deck together for like <$100, somehow. Someone gave me a foil Golbin Piledriver the other day for my goblin EDH for nothing. People around here are weird.

Unnatural selection is a card I definitely need.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The "Goblin War Drums" ability has been evergreen'd as "Menace."

Prowess and Scry are now evergreen.

Intimidate and Landwalk are gone. Protection is moving to the toolbox; it's no longer evergreen, but will show up where it needs to (the example given was to think of it like hybrid mana, which can show up where necessary, but won't be a mainstay of the game).

EDIT: I think we all had an idea that Menace and Prowess were going to happen. I never expected Scry to go evergreen, but I'm glad it is.

 

[ultron87]

Great changes. Yay Prowess! Scry is great to have as well.

Now the hope for Serum Visions reprint begins again. Lol. But it won't because they don't do those in Standard anymore and Mirrodin isn't one of the planes in Origins.

 

[Transhuman]

It makes sideboarding in draft a less shallow affair than "are they playing black? Better take out my 2 Accursed Spirits" I guess. I'd like to see some menace creatures with some secondary abilities like loot. Or double loot. Should've made loot evergreen.

 

[Yeef]

Menace and Prowess were pretty obvious, but I'm really glad to see scry go evergreen. I wonder if it'll still be primary red & blue or if all colors will get it more or less equally.

Should've made loot evergreen.

There's no reason to make it a keyword. It's not used enough for it to make sense and it's not used on cards where it would save much text space.

 

[bigkrev]

This makes Serum Visions not being in MM2 because "we aren't supporting Scry" look even stupider

 

[SigmasonicX]

The Making Magic article, which was accidentally put up early, for the record. There's not too much interesting in the article other than the new cards, though.

I expected menace and prowess, but scry becoming evergreen is a big surprise. I'm also surprised that protection and regenerate are sticking around, and the latter doesn't even have an asterisk by it.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

The Making Magic article, which was accidentally put up early, for the record. There's not too much interesting in the article other than the new cards, though.

I expected menace and prowess, but scry becoming evergreen is a big surprise. I'm also surprised that protection and regenerate are sticking around, and the latter doesn't even have an asterisk by it.

If regenerate went away this whole change would be blue gets another ability that red will sometimes share in prowess, blue gets to scry more, red and black get intimidate downgraded and black and green lose regenerate. So more toys for blue and less for everyone else except white because no one cares about white.

 

[y2dvd]

What do yall mean by evergreen?

 

[Transhuman]

There's no reason to make it a keyword. It's not used enough for it to make sense and it's not used on cards where it would save much text space.

Yet. wink

What do yall mean by evergreen?

Evergreen means it just has a word instead of explaining the ability. Like they don't say "any additional damage this creature could deal after lethality of the defending creature(s) is still directed to it's target" they just say Trample.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

This makes Serum Visions not being in MM2 because "we aren't supporting Scry" look even stupider

Nah, it just means that Maro was trying too hard to keep the lid on Scry becoming evergreen, and his messaging about Serum Visions in MM15 was poor. If anything, Serum Visions is likely getting some sort of Standard reprint soon.

What do yall mean by evergreen?

Available for use in every set, regardless of the other set mechanics. Flying is the quintessential "evergreen" mechanic; it's in literally every set.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

What do yall mean by evergreen?

Stuff that can go in any set. Base abilities like flying, and first strike.

 

[SigmasonicX]

If regenerate went away this whole change would be blue gets another ability that red will sometimes share in prowess, blue gets to scry more, red and black get intimidate downgraded and black and green lose regenerate. So more toys for blue and less for everyone else except white because no one cares about white.

What I was expecting was for regenerate to be replaced by a keyword that works the same way regenerate used to (as noted in the article itself), where it can only be used while the creature is "dying", which would require adding a new "dying step" or something.

Anyway, it occurs to me that scry becoming evergreen should do huge things for draw consistency in Limited.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, Serum Visions in Standard could totally be a thing at any time, now.

 

[Vangu Vegro]

Menace: OK, but I'd have preferred it if it were "Menace N" so stuff like Phyrexian Colossus could get in on the action.

Prowess: Nice.

Scry: Whatever.

Intimidate: Good riddance to bad rubbish. Shame they couldn't errata it out of existence though.

Landwalk: What a sick, sad world the powers that be must live in where landwalk is seen as problematic but hexproof isn't.

Protection: Glad it's not gone but I'm OK with it showing up less often.

Regenerate: Told you it wouldn't make sense to axe it after all those years of them trying to make it more relevant! (Actually, I don't think I did, but I thought it!)

 

[Crocodile]

Scry becoming evergreen (the only surprise) is huge. HUGE. I just hope they don't use it as an excuse to overprice cards like they often did in Theros Block. If this means a Serum Visions reprint in MMOrigins that would be great. But then again Mirrodin/New Phyreixa aren't one of the ten featured planes.......

Also hurray for Prowess

 

[Yeef]

What I was expecting was for regenerate to be replaced by a keyword that works the same way regenerate used to (as noted in the article itself), where it can only be used while the creature is "dying", which would require adding a new "dying step" or something.

That would be a reversion of the rules.

The way it used to work, there was a damage prevention/regeneration step between combat damage and state-based actions (for lack of a better term, since they didn't actually exist back then). During that step you could play any abilities that prevented damage or regenerated. It was pretty clunky even back then, but would be even clunkier with the current rule set. It's make some cards, like Burrenton Forge-Tender of Auriok Replica, mimic damage on the stack.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Scry becoming evergreen (the only surprise) is huge. HUGE. I just hope they don't use it as an excuse to overprice cards like they often did in Theros Block. If this means a Serum Visions reprint in MMOrigins that would be great. But then again Mirrodin/New Phyreixa aren't one of the ten featured planes.......

Also hurray for Prowess

They could totally have serum on Vryn.

You're going to take your "kid Jace o-face" Serum Visions art and you're going to like it!

 

[kirblar]

I'm not sure Scry going evergreen is a good thing, but we'll see. It does solve a lot of constructed level "consistency of results" issues for top-level players though, at least at its current prevalence.

 

["God's Beard!"]

As soon as Theros dropped I told everyone in here that Scry was too good to not go evergreen. Super pumped for consistency enablers sticking around.

 

[charlequin]

I highly approve of all these changes. I think we've hashed out menace and prowess pretty well at this point.

Scry is a big shocker for everyone, it seems like. From a design standpoint it makes sense -- now for sets that need smoothing they can just use scry (which can basically be used an infinite number of ways) instead of having to invent garbage like clash. The biggest downside I can see is that it might step on the toes of something like cycling, although I guess when they want to use that they can just downplay scry for a couple sets.

Also, Rosewater didn't mention it, but this means they can reprint the Temples whenever they want, which I'm sure makes Development happy.

I expected menace and prowess, but scry becoming evergreen is a big surprise. I'm also surprised that protection and regenerate are sticking around, and the latter doesn't even have an asterisk by it.

Can't swap regeneration out until they have a good replacement. If they didn't come up with one in time for Origins, then they're stuck with it.

Protection from colors is something they probably want to mostly phase out since it has the same problem as landwalk, but it's useful for a lot of possible reprints as well as for certain specific types of impressive cards (Swords, Champions, etc.) When they do dig this tool out I think it's actually more likely to be for non-color things, since stuff like "Protection from creatures" or "Protection from lands" don't have the deck-hosing problem and are hard to fill in for with something that fits in the text box.

 

[bigkrev]

Slightly worried about the idea of Serum Visions getting into standard- I remember it getting to a point where people were discussing if Ponder should be banned in Standard last time it was around.

 

[kirblar]

Slightly worried about the idea of Serum Visions getting into standard- I remember it getting to a point where people were discussing if Ponder should be banned in Standard last time it was around.

It's not even close to as good.

 

[bigkrev]

So, I guess Dissolve is our evergreen 3 CMC counterspell now?

It's not even close to as good.

Oh I know, but it's still a risk

 

[kirblar]

I actually don't think Dissolve is a healthy spell to have around.

 

[charlequin]

I'm not sure Scry going evergreen is a good thing, but we'll see. It does solve a lot of constructed level "consistency of results" issues for top-level players though, at least at its current prevalence.

What downside are you concerned about?

Slightly worried about the idea of Serum Visions getting into standard- I remember it getting to a point where people were discussing if Ponder should be banned in Standard last time it was around.

Wasn't that just because of Delver dumbness? Anyway, Serum Visions is the least good of its little clique so I don't think it'd be a big issue.

I actually don't think Dissolve is a healthy spell to have around.

It's fine as the occasional "What's less shitty than Cancel?" variant for a format but it's not great as a staple, I'd agree.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm even more glad I just got rid of my last Serum Visions this week then. It'll be fun in Standard, though.

 

[kirblar]

It's just the consistency thing- the temples turned out to be pretty insane, and all those little +%s are really adding up for players at the SCG level, it feels like. Not sure if it's a + or - for the game, probably a + for me when I get back to PPTQing.

Dissolve is a case where I think that card just encourages really unfun gameplay.

 

[Yeef]

Also, Rosewater didn't mention it, but this means they can reprint the Temples whenever they want, which I'm sure makes Development happy.

There's a few other cards that I think we'll be seeing more frequently, too. Titan's Strength, Omenspeaker and Read the Bones seem like they have a good chance of becoming "go-to" cards like Giant Growth and Lightning Strike.

 

[WanderingWind]

Dissolve is a case where I think that card just encourages really unfun gameplay.

This has to the weirdest of your hate boners to date. Dissolve? It's barely playable, much less the enabler of unfun gameplay.

 

[Crocodile]

I actually don't think Dissolve is a healthy spell to have around.

I think I've seen you throw shade on literally every counterspell made in the last 5 years. Is your bar for what's acceptable as playable so low that Dissolve is "too good"? Only Cancel is ok? Every counterspell has to cost 4+? I mean I hope I don't sound snarky but you don't seem pleased with any of them.