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Magic: the Gathering |OT8| Eldritch Moon - It's only a paper (and digital) moon
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
even if they had been at some point they certainly shuffled that around after 4C standard.
A Serious Man
Member
Nah, the block after.
Looking for some advice here..
I have a Collectors Edition Set from 1993 I'm looking to sell. I'm paranoid about using Ebay/Craigslist however and a lot of the gaming stores in town have folded.
Are there any reputable online stores that people would recommend, or would you recommend going to a MTG convention?
Similarly, would you recommend selling individual cards or the whole set?
Thanks!
I have a Collectors Edition Set from 1993 I'm looking to sell. I'm paranoid about using Ebay/Craigslist however and a lot of the gaming stores in town have folded.
Are there any reputable online stores that people would recommend, or would you recommend going to a MTG convention?
Similarly, would you recommend selling individual cards or the whole set?
Thanks!
charlequin
Banned
Yeah, I mean at this point it's clear that basically all their major format balancing errors (minus fetch+tango lands which is a bizarre miss, but more on that below) of recent memory are the result of late tweaks; they need to just bite the bullet and combine an earlier set-lock date with a dedicated procedure for power testing anything that changes afterwards.
...
On the mana base issue, somebody on Twitter made a good point about this today: the FFL mostly works in a sensible way as I laid out, but they have a systemic bias against 3+ color decks. I was thinking about why, and I'm gonna say it's some combination of three things:
- Just as a matter of temperament, maybe the developer group has internalized an idea of how risky multicolor strategies are that is more conservative than the general public.
- In short testing bursts the high-variance aspect of mana/color-screw is more prominent than over the whole population of players, and cards whose mana costs are in flux exacerbate this.
- The same way that red decks in FFL are closer in power to their real versions than complex ones, one and two-color decks will be closer in power than 3+ color ones, since the former have self-evident mana bases while the latter are often dependent on carefully built ones to function. (And again, you could miss a 3-color deck completely just by changing the dual lands late in a set's life.)
Something like this would definitely go a long way to explaining many of the different issues of different sizes (Abzan, four-color madness, Bant CoCo, etc.) we've seen in the last couple years of Standard.
They 100% are not.
Depletion lands here we come.
I agree with you on your points. I definitely feel like multicolor should be an option but it just feels so completely dominant barring some special exceptions like RTR + THS standard. Every now and then you have a mono red or white deck stealing a tourney. So should they start pushing cards that have more mana symbols like WWW or RRR in them? Just thinking out loud, not even sure if the majority of players want monocolor to be viable, though I'd guess not.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Avacyn should have cost 1 more W
Sometimes you have to push things you believe are good for the game, even if players don't see it or disagree with it. I think pushing monocolor via restrictive mana costs or special mechanics would be nice.
Heck, they could always push basic lands/creatures and mono-color with Muraganda maybe, see Imperiosaur and Muraganda Petroglyphs, just to test the waters. That might also maybe help lowering the price for duals/fetches?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The set would have been finalized by the time 4C standard was a thing.
The thing that you have to remember is that a lot of the Bogeyman Four Color Standard was that it was filled with relatively high-powered three-colored cards which don't actually exist right now.
That's not to suggest Bant Company wouldn't still be 4C Company.
In terms of magic development, do we know exactly what they do for testing?
When I tested for Decipher, we used to get very early drafts of sets with instructions on what they were looking to achieve with the set and what areas were being 'pushed' power wise. The some groups would focus on taking existing decks and adding new cards into them, whilst others built entirely new concoctions. About two thirds of the way through development, they would then fly and hold a long weekend play test where they changed the cards on the spot. Leads were picked by Decipher from their tournament scene - either folks who performed very well or folks who built 'weird' decks that somehow worked (that's how I got in).
It just feels like Wizards doesn't have a strong external testing group to identify problematic cards. Obviously their system overall is much better than deciphers in a thousand ways, but by the time I started play testing for them they had really gotten a grip on figuring out the format defining cards by bringing in external testers.
When I tested for Decipher, we used to get very early drafts of sets with instructions on what they were looking to achieve with the set and what areas were being 'pushed' power wise. The some groups would focus on taking existing decks and adding new cards into them, whilst others built entirely new concoctions. About two thirds of the way through development, they would then fly and hold a long weekend play test where they changed the cards on the spot. Leads were picked by Decipher from their tournament scene - either folks who performed very well or folks who built 'weird' decks that somehow worked (that's how I got in).
It just feels like Wizards doesn't have a strong external testing group to identify problematic cards. Obviously their system overall is much better than deciphers in a thousand ways, but by the time I started play testing for them they had really gotten a grip on figuring out the format defining cards by bringing in external testers.
Because they make their sets a year in advance, it's difficult for them to do on-the-spot changes. They have an internal playtesting league (called the Future Future League) making and playtesting decks for the Standard environment they think will exist one year later.
I think I ranted about this a while back. Every set now feels like a multicolour set in some way. What used to be really special (enemy colour cards!) are now staples in every set. I understand why they have done it, but that fact that they deliberately build every limited environment around the 10 colour pairs irks the grumpy old man in me.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They don't have an external testing group at all.
The FFL and development itself is composed of a lot of former pro players, e.g. Melissa De Tora, etc.
They just don't always get it right. The same way that LSV doesn't always get it right; he gave Collected Company a "3" in his 1-5 scale when it came out. The cards power is dependent on things that may or may not exist (e.g. future 3 drops).
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm wondering if we're missing a GB tempo deck they figured out internally.
since that in no way is a draft card.
GoutPatrol
Forgotten in his cell
It took them 12 years to reprint allied fetches. Does that mean you'll need to wait another 5 years for them? Probably not. But I don't think they will do them until 2018 at the earliest.
SigmasonicX
Member
I think they'll come sooner than that, but definitely not while the BFZ dual lands are still in Standard.
Yeah, Mournwillow is a baffling card, it just doesn't fit with their GB or delirium theme at all.
Giant Panda
Member
They gotta keep up with the
Good. More interesting than mono colored.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yeah I went last today because I took some pot shots first and then automatically became the target to kill as that reaps the rewards. My draft was pretty low to the ground which is ill suited to multiplayer as well.
the weird thing is it neither fits in constructed or limited. How do you get delirium that fast in an aggressive deck in colours with no burn, well there's alms of the vein if that counts and in limited delirium is just slow unless you get the perfect vessel turn 2 but even for that you spend 2 turns doing effectively nothing.
No, just a huge amount of Modern decks run them in their sideboards.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You Traverse for it against a weenies deck. That never happens in practice but that's the idea.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
but why? If you're keeping up on board against a weenie deck you're already winning.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean maybe they have infinite chump blockers or something.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Nope card makes no sense for constructed yet, to me.
And here. we. go.
I guess this confirms that Saheeli is a blue PW.
You know what I meanI'm super onboard with letting stores allow you to rebut a pack that is ridiculous in value. Keep the draft going without someone feeling like shit for passing $$$$. This isn't the pro tour.
Have to disagree. If you're lucky enough to pull something awesome, let the other guy get something as well. Makes no sense for stores to support this.
I'm super onboard with letting stores allow you to rebut a pack that is ridiculous in value. Keep the draft going without someone feeling like shit for passing $$$$. This isn't the pro tour.
charlequin
Banned
It's cool to swing in this direction sometimes, but it does have two major challenges: it's very hard to make work well in draft, and it tends to narrow competitive metagames way down if everyone's just choosing between five monocolor decks. (FWIW, I think Theros did an okay job of encouraging this without completely killing everything else.)
There's no conceivable external team that would be useful for them. Their actual development team is made up of extremely skilled ex-pros already. The people better than them are the people who aren't actually going to agree because they'd rather actually play and continue to put up results. Like: I'm sure it would do a lot for balance if they could get Team CFB to review sets for balance beforehand, but they also very much wouldn't ever do that.
Yeah I read that as less "theoretically possible" and more "is going to happen within our planned-out period of years."
The biggest reason I'm thinking otherwise is because this block seems like a perfect opportunity for a UR artificer legend and those kind of mine the same space. (Then again, they did do both Arlinn and Ulrich in SOI block...)
FreedomFrisbee
Member
Conspiracy 2 is great. Had fun with it, should prove to be a diverse thing I draft several times.
But hoooly shit, some of the cards do not do what they say! Example: Leovold's Operative. Flip to draft extra cards, skip packs equal to the number of operatives flipped for this pack. That's how that works, and that makes sense. That is NOT what the card says. The card just says to pass the next pack. Not 'next time you would draft a card pass that pack instead' or 'skip the next pack' or something more in line with when a player skips a turn. The wording on the card is perhaps fine if you're looking at it from programming standpoint or something, but in practice there won't be two packs for the player to immediately pick up and pass, so people would use magic logic and assume 'pack pass' triggers beyond the first fizzle since there are physically not generally more than one pack to pick up and pass.
I'm mad at the above because that actually happened, and that player got to draft extra cards from a pack and was only docked one pack. Because that's what the card says! And I can't really fault the decision. But then we go to the release notes and it says 'nope, skip a pack for each operative used'. If this were the only case of this, I would be a little less pissed about it. It isn't.
Spire Phantasm makes you guess the next card drafted. Then it gets a bonus 'if you guessed correctly for a card named Spire Phantasm'. As in, the card you guessed needs to be named Spire Phantasm to receive the bonus? Of course not, thats stupid! BUT THAT'S WHAT THE CARD SAYS! The card is straight missing a 'with'. The rest of the cards that make you note something seem to have their 'withs' in place, Phantasm is missing it. This one did not cause confusion because people assumed its actual function correctly, but likely only because that's the only way it makes any kind of sense existing.
The melee reminder text is hilarious. It seeks to remind us that a player attacks with creatures. In doing so it says that the bonus only gets applied if you attacked a player that has a creature. 'Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn for each opponent you attacked with a creature this combat'. You literally can't attack with anything but creatures. The only thing that saves people from misreading this is that it doesn't say 'opponent you attacked that controls a creature'. People might divine that the card doesn't actually mean that, but only because it doesn't say exactly that when they know it should, instead it is possible to misinterpret the ability. MULTIPLE PEOPLE MISINTERPRETED THIS UNTIL THEY WERE CORRECTED!
And then there's the Monarch token typo. I rest my case.
Sorry for the rant, but the amount of poorly worded cards in this set is amazing. These are just the ones we caught. I'm sure there are more.
But hoooly shit, some of the cards do not do what they say! Example: Leovold's Operative. Flip to draft extra cards, skip packs equal to the number of operatives flipped for this pack. That's how that works, and that makes sense. That is NOT what the card says. The card just says to pass the next pack. Not 'next time you would draft a card pass that pack instead' or 'skip the next pack' or something more in line with when a player skips a turn. The wording on the card is perhaps fine if you're looking at it from programming standpoint or something, but in practice there won't be two packs for the player to immediately pick up and pass, so people would use magic logic and assume 'pack pass' triggers beyond the first fizzle since there are physically not generally more than one pack to pick up and pass.
I'm mad at the above because that actually happened, and that player got to draft extra cards from a pack and was only docked one pack. Because that's what the card says! And I can't really fault the decision. But then we go to the release notes and it says 'nope, skip a pack for each operative used'. If this were the only case of this, I would be a little less pissed about it. It isn't.
Spire Phantasm makes you guess the next card drafted. Then it gets a bonus 'if you guessed correctly for a card named Spire Phantasm'. As in, the card you guessed needs to be named Spire Phantasm to receive the bonus? Of course not, thats stupid! BUT THAT'S WHAT THE CARD SAYS! The card is straight missing a 'with'. The rest of the cards that make you note something seem to have their 'withs' in place, Phantasm is missing it. This one did not cause confusion because people assumed its actual function correctly, but likely only because that's the only way it makes any kind of sense existing.
The melee reminder text is hilarious. It seeks to remind us that a player attacks with creatures. In doing so it says that the bonus only gets applied if you attacked a player that has a creature. 'Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn for each opponent you attacked with a creature this combat'. You literally can't attack with anything but creatures. The only thing that saves people from misreading this is that it doesn't say 'opponent you attacked that controls a creature'. People might divine that the card doesn't actually mean that, but only because it doesn't say exactly that when they know it should, instead it is possible to misinterpret the ability. MULTIPLE PEOPLE MISINTERPRETED THIS UNTIL THEY WERE CORRECTED!
And then there's the Monarch token typo. I rest my case.
Sorry for the rant, but the amount of poorly worded cards in this set is amazing. These are just the ones we caught. I'm sure there are more.
"God's Beard!"
Member
A new Izzet planeswalker would definitely be a draw for the set.
Etrian Oddity
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";215148336]A new Izzet planeswalker would definitely be a draw for the set.[/QUOTE]
I'm loading up on all the Kaladesh-themed cards from Origins in anticipation. :3
I'm loading up on all the Kaladesh-themed cards from Origins in anticipation. :3
It was probably slotted to hate against GW tokens. It was one of the decks they were worried about during SOI FFL.
Also, I've actually played that card to good results in sealed league.
I don't know if you're playing cards in a different language, but the English text seems pretty clear to me.
"Pass the next booster pack without drafting a card from it."
Drafted the green avatar that exiles dudes as drafting with abilities and had him with flying, lifelink, trample, and hexproof and nobody else at my table had shit. Game was grindy as hell and of course the one blue player at the table with two cards in hand counters my Overrun despite him being dead no matter what on my turn. Game goes an hour longer because then the one guy casts Pariah on the other dude's creature that gets bigger whenever another creature dies. Got milled by being the Monarch and the game wound up being like two hours. While I absolutely adore the set, it's for this exact reason that I hate multiplayer without friends.
He doesn't gain trample!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
He was talking about multiples used at once. If you use say 3 at once and each says pass the next pack you're fulfilling that by just passing the next pack not the next 3, it's not obvious it's cumulative from the text.
In regards to mournwillow I still don't see it, even against GW token. GB delirium is a grindy af deck and the way it's build isn't outlandish or anything. With access to black GW tokens would never have been an issue once they got options to quickly develop a board.
Re: Leovold's Operative -- I can see how it's confusing at first, but it works the same way as other replacement effects, so it's intuitive in that sense. It'd be extra confusing if it worked differently.
Like for example, if you activate a bunch of different Chronotogs in the same turn, you skip a bunch of turns, even though each Chronotog only mentions skipping your "next turn" (just like each Leovold's Operative only mentions your "next pack"). Once a turn (or a pack) has been replaced, it's like it doesn't exist, so it can't be replaced again.
Like for example, if you activate a bunch of different Chronotogs in the same turn, you skip a bunch of turns, even though each Chronotog only mentions skipping your "next turn" (just like each Leovold's Operative only mentions your "next pack"). Once a turn (or a pack) has been replaced, it's like it doesn't exist, so it can't be replaced again.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Someone on CFB did magic math for deploy the gatewatch and also included EDH he said he wouldn't go below 27 and 30 something is best.
I'm gonna build Narset Superfriends in the near future and settled on a general build. It's not easy to even find 27 good PWs in those colours that don't require some build around.
With all the usual suspects and some fringe playables I only came up with around 24 and had to settle for OG Ajani, OG Chandra and Living Guildpact Jace, who can at least temporarily get rid of stuff.
I fear I need some recursion though and have no idea what to take for that. Maybe the free spell time twister.
I'm gonna build Narset Superfriends in the near future and settled on a general build. It's not easy to even find 27 good PWs in those colours that don't require some build around.
With all the usual suspects and some fringe playables I only came up with around 24 and had to settle for OG Ajani, OG Chandra and Living Guildpact Jace, who can at least temporarily get rid of stuff.
I fear I need some recursion though and have no idea what to take for that. Maybe the free spell time twister.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
I don't know if you're playing cards in a different language, but the English text seems pretty clear to me.
"Pass the next booster pack without drafting a card from it."
Nah, we were doing english. The text can very easily be interpreted to mean, when used in multiples, take extra cards from the current pack then skip only 1 pack.
The difference lies in knowing the intent of the card vs doing strictly what the card says. Literally nobody at the draft (20 people, 2 judges) looked at Leovald's Operative and concluded that it said anything to the effect of 'pass multiple packs'. We considered that might have been the intent of the card, but in simply reading the card we could not strictly conclude that.
For reference, look at the skip turn wording. Nobody misinterprets that because the object you are skipping only gets skipped if it exists (the turn). When you stack multiple 'skip your next turn's you know that means it's a cumulative effect. Operative should say 'skip your next draft pick' or something to the extent of depriving you of a future game object. Instead it instructs you to perform an action.
Or maybe this makes more sense: it wants to be a replacement effect but it isn't written like a replacement effect.
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