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Post part 7-

Spoiler

Ive been thinking about the blood vial. It was put on record in 1985. In the 18 years he was in prison, they went through several appeals and whatnot based on DNA. Wouldn't they have used the vial from 85 for testing in all those appeals? That would explain why it was opened so many times and had a needle hole in it...

no i dont think the vial is from 1985. i think the vial is from 2003 or whenever he got out because they had to test his DNA at that point against the evidence they had. that was my understanding anyways but i didn't pay too much attention as to when the vial of blood was gathered from him

 

[KarmaCow]

ep6 spoilers

Spoiler

I believe the point was to suggest that if the technician was careless enough to contaminate the sample with her own DNA, then its possible that she could have made a similar mistake with accidentally introducing Teresa's DNA into the sample. That possibility is further supported by the fact that there was no other trace of her DNA anywhere in the garage and they couldnt even determine if the source of the dna on the bullet was even blood. Under any other circumstance the sample would have been marked inconclusive but because they were directed to "put Teresa in his garage" they went and got special permission to ignore protocol.

Somehow missed your post and yea that makes more sense.

 

[FlyinJ]

no i dont think the vial is from 1985. i think the vial is from 2003 or whenever he got out because they had to test his DNA at that point against the evidence they had. that was my understanding anyways but i didn't pay too much attention as to when the vial of blood was gathered from him

I could have sworn I remember them saying they had it on file because it's mandatory for prisoners to submit a sample when going in...

 

[Vampire On Titus]

I don't get why he would murder a woman he didn't know after making an appointment with her.

Spoiler

The only way him murdering her makes sense is if he wangs her over the head, puts her body in the back of the van, and transports her to the quarry for a burn.

The cops don't burn the body. Do they -or the killer- move the charred remains to behind Avery's trailer? I can buy that. Do they move an abandoned van to Avery's? Would Avery have taken the van back to his place himself and not crushed it? Possibly.

But we still don't have a murder scene or murder weapons.

Spoiler

I know all caps yelled about this a few pages back but... WHERES THE FUCKING BLOOD? Seriously If this happened as the coerced as shit Brendan testimony says it did (which I've since read the transcripts on and it's still coerced as shit) then how could their possibly not be a SHRED of physical evidence at the actual crime scene? I know this is what you mean when you say we still don't have a murder scene. But I just want it to fully sink in that we DONT have a murder scene but we do have inexplicably convenient evidence as if there was one. Like the mysterious bullet. It's clear to me evidence was planted. The only reason that makes sense is a frame job imo.

 

[robertsan21]

we have been watching this show for a day now and I am so angry. How can something like this happen? This documentary must stir the pot and hopefully help these two guys out. The cops are fucking corrupt as it gets. how can they even be allowed to continue working?

 

[UltimaPooh]

This show gets really sad if you've seen Jinx... Huge amount of evidence that he killed the guy in Galveston but he gets off.

Spoiler

Hardly any evidence here and the two guys go to jail for the rest of their lives.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

This show gets really sad if you've seen Jinx... Huge amount of evidence that he killed the guy in Galveston but he gets off.

Spoiler

Hardly any evidence here and the two guys go to jail for the rest of their lives.

There's two different legal systems for wealthy people and poor people. Imagine if Steven didn't have the money from his first trail going into is second.

Spoiler

The defense made a brilliant case and still lost out. He would have had absolutely no chance with a public defender

 

[UltimaPooh]

There's two different legal systems for wealthy people and poor people. Imagine if Steven didn't have the money from his first trail going into is second.

Spoiler

The defense made a brilliant case and still lost out. He would have had absolutely no chance with a public defender

Yeah that's why it's so sad.

Also I really dislike Jude Willis.

Spoiler

He pretty much just give the prosecution everything they want unless the defense gets him in a corner on it... then denies the defense to do anything outside of the scope of proving that Avery did not commit the crimes.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

i'm heartbroken.

what a complete and terrible failure of justice.

 

[SlickShoes]

I finished it last night I guess I'll spoiler tag my thoughts since everyone else is:

Spoiler

OK so, the Avery's don't seem like the best bunch of folk at least Stevens brothers don't and he done some questionable things as a teenager too.

Other than that did this TV show leave out some huge bits of evidence? I just can't see how either man could be convicted with the evidence presented, especially Brendan.

I understand that this TV show was basically from a defence point of view since every other bit of coverage from the time seemed to be the other way around.

My theory is that either of Stevens brothers, Bobby Dassey or Tadych guy done it and they hated Steven already so it was easy to frame him for it, Brendan was sadly collateral damage in all this. I don't think it would be too hard for them to commit the crime on the property, transfer her in her car to be burned, use a burn barrel to dump the remains in Stevens fire then leave the car on the yard. The police filled in the rest of the blanks because they wanted to nail him so badly.

This still doesnt explain her deleted voicemails and how creepy her ex-boyfriend was as well. I thought her brother was an oddball as well but I'll give him a pass since he probably just wants someone/anyone to pay for his sisters horrible murder.

It was crushing hearing Brendan tell his mum he's stupid and that photo at the end of him standing in jail smiling was real sad too.

 

[Always-honest]

Damn.. I only watched 4 episodes but this is incredible.

 

[Nyx]

Watched another three episodes last night (5 in total so far) and damnit man, I can't even describe how I feel about what has been going on....

I'm definitely watching the remaining 5 episodes in the next few days.

 

[suzu]

Binged watched all the episodes.

Spoiler

Why is it possible that you can convict two separate people on the murder of the same person.. with two totally different stories about what happened. Like, w t f.

 

[KingWool]

Binged watched all the episodes.

Spoiler

Why is it possible that you can convict two separate people on the murder of the same person.. with two totally different stories about what happened. Like, w t f.

Because you're guilty until innocent

This documentary made me cry. So much god damn corruption.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Spoiler

Other than that did this TV show leave out some huge bits of evidence? I just can't see how either man could be convicted with the evidence presented, especially Brendan.

Spoiler

He had confessed. Brendan's confession was an admission of guilt--granted his confession was bullshit considering the investigators fed him the most crucial details and it didn't match the physical evidence at all. Not to mention they questioned him without a lawyer or a guardian which I'm pretty sure is against the law. The kid clearly had no idea what was going on.

Everytime they interview Brendan he's contradicting their story but they push him using misleading language. Like right now I'm watching the part where he's writing his story and the guy keeps correcting events and even states it as "you did a bad thing and you won't get out until you apologize". He then keeps feeding tidbits to the kid insisting the coerced statement was fact and his own recollection of events is a lie. It's absolutely maddening.

 

[ZQQLANDER]

At the least they could've found the number that had called, right? Seems like an odd thing not to pursue, although I understand as it wasn't the job of his defense attorney's to do that sort of thing. I just have a feeling

Spoiler

it'd be the ex-BFs number if they had found it and called

Yup. You bring up a good point as there was nothing regarding phones (apart from the voice mail situation) in the case. Phones are crucial because they can corroborate a timeline or suspect/witness statements.

I'm actually kind of astounded they never pinged Teresa Halbach's phone. I believe she left it in the car (?) so it could have provided a rough outline of where the vehicle went. Could have proved/disproved if Halbach's vehicle left Avery's property.

 

[Koozek]

Finished it today. Couldn't stop thinking about it. This is all so insane. The thought of never knowing the truth is maddening I hope we'll someday learn it. Will there be a second season?

 

[POWERSPHERE]

This was a harrowing watch

 

[Cake Boss]

Spoiler

I would imagine that there will be a kickstarter for Avery to hire a private detective.

I think the only way the Averys get out of this is to find out what really happened to the girl, and it starts with searching her apartment and her ex boyfriends. He was too fishy, that body language read he was hiding something. How in the fuck do you not know what time of the day did you go visit her house? Just how? My bullshit Meyer went off the charts when he was answering questions

 

[SuperPac]

Re: Auto Trader and blank bill of sale form -

Spoiler

The prosecution uses these two things as proof that Halbach was inside Steven's trailer. But seeing as the Avery family is in the auto salvage business, seems to me these two items being in his trailer meant jack squat. Yet they were treated like a smoking gun.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I love the younger pretty girl during the interviews between sections of the trial. You can see her getting pissed at the prosecution in every interview for

Spoiler

trying to explain away inconsistencies and breaking protocol. The part where they are talking about the contaminated DNA sample on the bullet, there's a second shot of her where the prosecutor says some nonsense and she just drops a, "are you fucking serious?" face.

.

 

[Futurevoid]

Finished it last night.

As frustrated as I was with the

Spoiler

outcome of Steven's trial and the subsequent uphill battle he faces to ever get out of prison

- What was done to Brendan is seriously one of the most amazing

Spoiler

miscarriages of justice I've ever seen. How any juror could sit there and watch those confessions and not feel that there is full coercion going on considering the level of intelligence he possesses is beyond me. Considering the inconsistencies in his statements as time went on, etc. You have to know something isn't right there.

Furthermore, the original trial got my blood boiling enough but when the post-trial team was fighting for a new trial and presenting the absolutely despicable job that Len Kachinsky and his investigator Michael O'Kelly did to ignore his pleas of innocence was just too much. I almost had to stop watching.

The fact that Kachinsky is smiling about his complete ineptitude while a 16 year old is spending his life in prison is sickening.

...and O'Kelly's ribbon breakdown.

 

[Don Draper's Hat]

Finished it last night.

As frustrated as I was with the

Spoiler

outcome of Steven's trial and the subsequent uphill battle he faces to ever get out of prison

- What was done to Brendan is seriously one of the most amazing

Spoiler

miscarriages of justice I've ever seen. How any juror could sit there and watch those confessions and not feel that there is full coercion going on considering the level of intelligence he possesses is beyond me. Considering the inconsistencies in his statements as time went on, etc. You have to know something isn't right there.

Furthermore, the original trial got my blood boiling enough but when the post-trial team was fighting for a new trial and presenting the absolutely despicable job that Len Kachinsky and his investigator Michael O'Kelly did to ignore his pleas of innocence was just too much. I almost had to stop watching.

The fact that Kachinsky is smiling about his complete ineptitude while a 16 year old is spending his life in prison is sickening.

...and O'Kelly's ribbon breakdown.

Just this minute finished watching it and I pretty much agree with all this.

Spoiler

I hope we do eventually find out what really happened to Teresa. I don't know why exactly, but I have a feeling her brother is somehow involved.

 

[KingWool]

Manitowoc County Sheriff deleted their Facebook page. Fucking cowards

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

I mentioned this at work today after watching the first episode. One of my co-workers is from that city, knows the family, and jumped down my throat claiming that Avery is an inbred scumbag and should rot in hell. He is not reliable or unbiased at all, but now I really want to see what else happened.

 

[internetwolf]

Manitowoc County Sheriff deleted their Facebook page. Fucking cowards

recently?

 

[KingWool]

recently?

Yep just within the past few days

 

[UnemployedVillain]

recently?

Like I said last page, all their pages have been getting blown the fuck up since this released

 

[neurosisxeno]

Am I misremembering or wasn't Manitowoc not supposed to be involved at all, yet found all the damning evidence? How the hell did that happen...

 

[KingWool]

Am I misremembering or wasn't Manitowoc not supposed to be involved at all, yet found all the damning evidence? How the hell did that happen...

To Protect & Serve

Spoiler

bull shit

 

[Futurevoid]

I mentioned this at work today after watching the first episode. One of my co-workers is from that city, knows the family, and jumped down my throat claiming that Avery is an inbred scumbag and should rot in hell. He is not reliable or unbiased at all, but now I really want to see what else happened.

He may well be but did he commit the crime in question beyond a reasonable doubt? Whether someone is inbred or a scumbag doesn't mean he's a murderer.

Spoiler

The defense had the unenviable task of trying to make the accusation that the county framed Steven stick. I mean that's tough going and I thought the defense did a pretty incredible job presenting the possibility of such a thing happening despite not having a "smoking gun" as it were. Realistically though, that key piece of evidence (the blood vial) went up in smoke with the testimony from the FBI analyst claiming there was no EDTA found in the blood tested from the RAV4 (despite the flaws presented in said test).

You have to ask yourself though - if the EDTA testimony had not happened - would the outcome have been different? Then you have to take into account that the initial jury count was 7 in favor of his innocence from the get-go even with the EDTA testimony. I'd be really curious to see how those deliberations went considering how drastically the room turned against him 20 or so hours later. There were accusations mentioned of certain jurors going into this with their minds already made up and while that's pretty deplorable given a mans life is in the balance - its very very human. Scary but human and its ashame that people viewing Steven as a scumbag for whatever reason would blind them to certain evidence presented during the case (or lack thereof on the side of prosecution).

 

[FlyinJ]

I mentioned this at work today after watching the first episode. One of my co-workers is from that city, knows the family, and jumped down my throat claiming that Avery is an inbred scumbag and should rot in hell. He is not reliable or unbiased at all, but now I really want to see what else happened.

Your friend's attitude probably reflected the attitude of every juror. They were all from that area as well, and a lot of them probably decided he was guilty before the trial even began.

 

[Cake Boss]

Spoiler

Out of the 12 jurors, 7 were said they thought he was innocent, 2 undecided and 3 were stubborn and believed he was guilty before the trial started, as stated by that one juror who had to leave for a family emergency. How did those 3 convince the other 9 jurors is what i cant understand.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Spoiler

Out of the 12 jurors, 7 were said they thought he was innocent, 2 undecided and 3 were stubborn and believed he was guilty before the trial started, as stated by that one juror who had to leave for a family emergency. How did those 3 convince the other 9 jurors is what i cant understand.

Spoiler

That family emergency was incredibly funny timing.

 

[Boston]

Did the sherif, deputies and court people end up paying for their crimes of putting Avery in jail for 18 years? I stopped watching after he got charged with murder. I'm just curious if they still went after these scumbags and if they payed for it?

 

[twentytwo22]

Did the sherif, deputies and court people end up paying for their crimes of putting Avery in jail for 18 years? I stopped watching after he got charged with murder. I'm just curious if they still went after these scumbags and if they payed for it?

Nope.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Did the sherif, deputies and court people end up paying for their crimes of putting Avery in jail for 18 years? I stopped watching after he got charged with murder. I'm just curious if they still went after these scumbags and if they payed for it?

No and avery had to settle his claim against the state for 400k just so he could pay for a good defense lawyer on the murder charge

 

[FlyinJ]

Did the sherif, deputies and court people end up paying for their crimes of putting Avery in jail for 18 years? I stopped watching after he got charged with murder. I'm just curious if they still went after these scumbags and if they payed for it?

They were about to be, then out of the blue Avery decided to murder a woman and the charges against the department were dropped because Avery was forced to make a settlement to pay for a new lawyer.

 

[criesofthepast]

Watched up to episode 4 so far. It is really fucking sad. But there is definitely something off about the Avery family and Steve himself?

When Brendan was in custody and talking about missing wrestlemania it really made me sad.

 

[KingWool]

Watched up to episode 4 so far. It is really fucking sad. But there is definitely something off about the Avery family and Steve himself?

When Brendan was in custody and talking about missing wrestlemania it really made me sad.

His brain could not literally calculate what was happening to him

 

[evilromero]

They were about to be, then out of the blue Avery decided to murder a woman and the charges against the department were dropped because Avery was forced to make a settlement to pay for a new lawyer.

The documentary certainly forces the viewer to make a pretty big leap in logic to believe that a conveniently placed smudge of blood in the car AND the keys in plain sight would be authentic points of evidence. It was almost comical how perfectly placed everything was.

Oh, and we can't forget the "GoT-worthy" gruesome narrative provided by the boy recounting the alleged murder of the missing woman. It was a pretty loaded set of cards.

Can I believe that a cadre of influential men in a small town would go to such lengths to cover their tracks and save their necks? Absolutely, yes. Is that what happened? Not necessarily. But it makes for interesting drama.

 

[The Illiterati]

I just had to post and echo everyone thoughts. I've never been more angry throughout watching a piece of media as I was watching this. Thankfully I hope that somehow -real- justice is served after this documentary has been released.

Side point: I'm really interested in knowing how this series came to be made. I mean,

Spoiler

very little progress has been made since the second convictions.

So I find it surprising that this series hasn't been released or used up until now. The amount of footage and effort put into this over the years is astonishing.

 

[KarmaCow]

Episode 8 spoilers

Spoiler

It was hinted at before the episode but the conspiracy angle really fucked the defense there. The defense already couldn't point to another party but trying to push the narrative the cops created the crimescene for Steven is massive leap for anyone. In a small town like that, it's not hard to spin it as a big time laywers picking on good honest cops, which is what they did. At best they made it sketchy and the blood vial thing actually ended up costing them since to fit the narrative, the FBI would now need to be complicit. I'm not sure what they could have done (especially since I don't have the full story) but it was strange in the closing statements they made no mention of how no blood splatter was found in the garage even though that was the supposed kill site. Or that bones were found far away in the gravel pit. Or that her blood, seemingly from a head wound was found in her car. All those seems like big holes in the prosecution timeline, but again I'm just going by what's in the documentary

Even all that said and acknowledging the obvious bent of the documentary it seems crazy to me that he was guilty. It seems hard to see what context not shown could have made it certain enough to find him guilty. It makes no sense that he was charged with murder, but not mutilation since him burning the body is a significant part of the prosecutions narrative for what happened. They present it as a matter of a few jurors brow beating the others into finding him guilty and I can buy that, but it's still so ridiculous.

The Brendon case should be wrapped up and dismissed immediately but after this episode I'm worn down enough to believe that he will be screwed by the system.

 

[Ravager61]

I'm curious as to why

Spoiler

the judge in Steven's case doesn't allow the defense to present alternate suspects in the first place. That immediately hamstrings the defense in a huge way because the defense can't even really point out the fact that the investigation focused solely on Avery and that there were other parties with just as many reasons to be investigated as Avery. I think that is even mentioned at some point by the defense when talking about the ex-boyfriend.

 

[suzu]

I'm curious as to why

Spoiler

the judge in Steven's case doesn't allow the defense to present alternate suspects in the first place. That immediately hamstrings the defense in a huge way because the defense can't even really point out the fact that the investigation focused solely on Avery and that there were other parties with just as many reasons to be investigated as Avery. I think that is even mentioned at some point by the defense when talking about the ex-boyfriend.

I was wondering about this as well.

 

[mjc]

Holy FUCK at the end of episode five. Damn.

 

[yyzjohn]

Spoiler

One thing that I didn't see mentioned in the doc is what motive Avery would have had to kill her. Other than the "he's psychotic and has no feeling" I don't understand why he would kill her if he did it. Also his actions and demeanor right after he's accused don't seem to fit with someone that is guilty. I wonder if they regret not having him testify in his own defense. His story has never changed and I think he would have done well under examination. What a complete cluster fuck this entire case was.

 

[Rin Tohsaka]

Holy shit end of episode 4

 

[criesofthepast]

Episode 6:

Spoiler

"Try to put her in the garage or house."

WHAT THE FUCK.

The DNA analyst lady is a moron.

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

Your friend's attitude probably reflected the attitude of every juror. They were all from that area as well, and a lot of them probably decided he was guilty before the trial even began.

Yeah, he's pretty typical of the type of person I work with. The amount of anger in his voice when talking about this was unprecedented. He's in his late 50s, and said that nothing good ever came out of anyone in that family, or their disgusting junk yard. I asked if he was going to at least watch the doc (talking movies is the one thing we can agree on, but probably not in this situation) and he just said 'fuck no'. I need to find a new job, but that's another story.