With Iron Fist incoming, Marvel may want to ease us into stuff like The Hand sooner rather than later.
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Marvel's Daredevil S2 *Spoiler Thread* |OT| Elektra Boogaloo - March 18th on Netflix
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
peanutbutterlatte
Member
A year in a bit I guess, as Defenders will probably take the Autumn timeslot after Iron Fist in the Spring. Really we need them to up their output! It might be straining for the studio, but there's no way after how good Season 2 was DD won't get renewed for a third. And then Jessica Jones S2. This is assuming that Luke Cage and Iron Fist won't get renewed as well.
MutonCommander
Banned
D'Onofrio's Kingpin is one scary son of a bitch. The episode 10 scene with Matt was incredible.
Calm waterfall
Banned
The whole Hand plot was seriously lacking. It lacked plenty of focus and depth. The whole immortality thing look seriously out of place in this "realistic" setting. Ninjas with throwing stars running through the streets looked very silly. The motivation of the Hand is still a mystery. Why Electra is so special? Why her specifically? For a 13 episode season there were not plenty of info about the Hand. The show runners should focus on one thing at a time, instead of splitting their focus in a already short season. Last season was much better because the focus was razor sharp on one villain, and the plot was not all all over the place.
krameriffic
Member
He pulls it off perfectly. One of the only performances of a character where I genuinely feel scared when he goes off. His awkward, query mentality in most scenes just serves to heighten the insanity.
Dr Duncan Steel
Member
His scenes just makes all the shit with Nobu all the more bland in comparison. Glad that dudes head got chopped. Fuck him and his boring ass.
Also, Deborah Ann Woll might be the most beautiful person in all of television today. It's almost distracting.
Alandrus Sun
Banned
I disagree with ninjas being silly, it's a comic book show about a blind buy dressed in red beating up bad guys, ninjas are perfectly within the realm of this world. However, I agree with everything else you just said with regards to the super unfocused nature of the plot-lines, especially The Hand. Why in the fuck should I care about The War, Blacksky, the Hand, the Chaste, these weird demon children, and all the rest? None of that stuff is properly setup after two whole seasons, I have no idea what the stakes are or what each side wants.
Dr Duncan Steel
Member
Wait so was it Mr. Krabs and Mr. Krabs alone that killed DA Reyes?
Clancy Brown plays Mr. Krabs in case you didn't know.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It's really really hard to sympathise with Matt when he gets the choice between Karen and Elektra. Like boo hoo man you get beat up once every so often....
Very good Season, overall i think the Season was better than 1
Very strong start, the ending was a bit weaker (
The Punisher was fantastic, the conversation on the roof with DD, the greveyard monologue, the block A scene. But I don't know if I want a Punisher Show, probably would be to much for me, he works great within an ensamble
The integration of the Kingpin was great
The Hand Stuff is bit of a weakpoint. It was already teased in season 1, but we still don't get answers. They kinda want to make it mythical, but it does't really work. It only worked well
Very strong start, the ending was a bit weaker (
to many Ninjas running on the roof, made it a bit goofy.
The Punisher was fantastic, the conversation on the roof with DD, the greveyard monologue, the block A scene. But I don't know if I want a Punisher Show, probably would be to much for me, he works great within an ensamble
The integration of the Kingpin was great
The Hand Stuff is bit of a weakpoint. It was already teased in season 1, but we still don't get answers. They kinda want to make it mythical, but it does't really work. It only worked well
with the blood farm. Nobus immortality is teased, but they didn't really do anything good with that one after this scene.
Oh but they are. The final episode has them with submachine guns and according to that black detective, they had snipers at all the entrances. So they do use guns but only when the plot calls for it. However they don't use any of those snipers when they actually need them on the roof.
It's badly written. The Hand was just a misfire on all fronts.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
One small gripe is with how deserted large areas of NY are, though that goes for a lot of comic fiction. It just wouldn't happen.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
All they need to add is Bullseye and it'll be perfect
I'd add these after Born Again:
Daredevil: Love and War - Marvel Graphic Novel Vol.1 #24 (Frank Miller, Bill Sienkiewicz)
Elektra Lives Again (Frank Miller)
You might also want to start with Daredevil: The Man Without Fear (Frank Miller, John Romita Jr.). It's a grittier retelling of his and Elektra's origin story, it doesn't align perfectly with the main continuity and some of it might seem redundant, but generally it's a much more effective and exciting version of those (rather quaint) parts of Miller's original run.
The Outsider
Member
I kinda feel like this was intentional, to some extent. I mean, you don't exactly want your main character to be unlikeable, but Matt clearly doesn't know how to handle himself between Castle and Elektra and everything else in his life. I think the Defenders presents a really strong opportunity for Matt to accept that he doesn't have to be alone in his crusade, and that there's nothing wrong with accepting help. I think revealing his identity to Karen is just step one of that process.
Exactly. This a step in Matts evolution as Daredevil. I'm not sure what people want here, should he be the perfect hero? That's not Daredevil, nor is it interesting. Matt should be making mistakes, big ones.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
He did start to go a little "Peter at the end of ASM2" at the end there though. 'We'll go around the world! I'll go where you go!'" Noooo you won't.
Oh also, you know in Jessica Jones they introduced Nuke out of nowhere, and his subplot didn't really go anywhere? And you know also how they're setting up a 'Born Again' arc very very obviously for S3?
Guess who has a big role in the Born Again comic storyline?
I think one of the main problems with the season is that we never see Nelson and Murdock be an actual thing for longer than five seconds. The first season had them start up the firm, come to blows halfway through the season, and miraculously get back together just because the season finale demanded it. This season repeated the process yet again, only the split was made permanent. It reminded me of the Christopher Nolan trilogy in a way, where we got a Batman who only had a one year career. You see Batman get started, but then he ends right when you feel he only starts to get going.
Calm waterfall
Banned
Haters? Really? If someone did not like the plot point, it does not mean that i don´t want that story line. The whole Hand thing lacked focus and more info.
More_Badass
Member
Ennis' Punisher MAX run is fantastic
The Bookerman
Member
I bet plenty of people said it... I want my Punisher series on netflix.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Got to wait behind Defenders, Iron Fist, JJ Season 2 and undoubtedly DD Season 3.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
He'll totally show up in Defenders wanting to get in on the action and getting told to go away because the others don't want to kill to achieve their ends. Like Civil War where he tries to fanboy over Cap and Cap tells him to get lost
Just replace Cap with DD/Luke in this scene.
The Outsider
Member
I agree with this. But on the plus side, at least we got a shit ton of Daredevil action. No complaints on that front.
Finished S2 a few hours ago. Couple questions:
Was it ever shown who drove up to Frank's house the night Karen broke in? Were we supposed to assume it was the Colonel's men?
With the Colonel dead doesn't this leave Madame Gao to do whatever the shit she wants? Matt's involvement in the Colonel's plot felt weird to me for this reason. He knew Frank would find him so I don't see why he didn't focus entirely on The Hand.
Was it ever shown who drove up to Frank's house the night Karen broke in? Were we supposed to assume it was the Colonel's men?
With the Colonel dead doesn't this leave Madame Gao to do whatever the shit she wants? Matt's involvement in the Colonel's plot felt weird to me for this reason. He knew Frank would find him so I don't see why he didn't focus entirely on The Hand.
crazyrabbits
Banned
Eh, I could see them bringing the duo back together somewhere down the line. Maybe Foggy stays with Hogarth's firm for a season of JJ or two, gets bored/burned out with big corporate law and decides to get the old band back together.
I'd also like to see Born Again as a tight 6-episode arc in the next season. Maybe start it off with the introduction of Bullseye/return of Elektra, then have shit hit the fan once Wilson gets parole midway through the season.
Trailer bait
They completely forgot to follow up on that by the end of the season. I didn't even realize who The Blacksmith is. Then Matt forgot about it and it was never heard of again. I thought it was supposed to be a big reveal.
Ninjas magic macguffin plot reasons.
It's kind of funny, it's like a literal plot hole.
Well, yeah, I'd bet on them coming back again. But it has become way too repetitive and circular for my liking.
Oh, I thought they were looking for the iron container thing in that area. It seemed dumb that it would be New York but I just waved it off as Hand ninja bullshit.
Also is there a good list of all the easter eggs, both for the MCU and comics? I noticed quite a few nods to Jessica Jones but I know very little about the comics. Like the redhead at the end of the season seems like someone important but she appeared with no setup and out of nowhere.
Spieler Eins
Member
It's like... there's still more seasons coming.
How is it a plot hole?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
The Outsider
Member
Probably only a year or so, if we assume that S1 took place around when it was filmed, or when it aired. I think episode 1 set the tone of DD being in control; we see how used to things he is with that scene with Turk. It isn't until Castle and Elektra enter the picture that Matt really loses control and is unable to balance the different aspects of his life.
the_firewithin
Member
btw the dude that DD keeps messing with at the docks who was running guns this year, i hope they make it a running joke that DD screws with him every season
I know, right? Where's the patience to let a story unfold?
The Outsider
Member
Just don't let Castle get to him.
Season 1 did this too. Stick, Black Sky. We still don't have a full explanation, but we know a lot more than we previously did.
Let's be honest, Matt could barely control shit in the first season. The main Elena tenement case was practically only Senor Foggy and Karen with Matt swooping in to take the credit despite not being there for 80% of it.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
He did start to go a little "Peter at the end of ASM2" at the end there though. 'We'll go around the world! I'll go where you go!'" Noooo you won't.
Oh also, you know in Jessica Jones they introduced Nuke out of nowhere, and his subplot didn't really go anywhere? And you know also how they're setting up a 'Born Again' arc very very obviously for S3?
Guess who has a big role in the Born Again comic storyline?
I really expected Punisher's CO to get tied in with that plot somehow.
I actually love that they are doing the out there stuff.
Like with Gotham it got much better imo once they brought in pre-venom, fear toxin, Indian Hill and The Order of St Dumas and Azrael.
Or when on the "realistic" Arrow Oliver got the shit kicked out of him by a criminal on a Japanese supersoldier formula out of nowhere.
Only thing I find silly about The Hand are the bow & arrows, especially when they use guns in other scenes.
Matt is officially "that guy" from College. The one that takes credit for everything doing the least.
chaobreaker
Member
I spent yesterday marathoning Season 2 and slept on my thoughts. Here's what I think:
I think season 2 started out really strong. Exceptionally strong. The Punisher subplot was very compelling TV. I had little expectation on how good it would be and was complete blown away from it from the get-go. That's why I was genuinely disappointed that it slowed down and took a backseat so early just for it to wrap up in the lamest way possible. The confrontation with The Blacksmith really took me away from the viewing experience. Did the writers really expect us to believe Frank's old unit all became drug runners and were responsible for a drug bust that got his family killed? The episode that revealed that his colonel was the Blacksmith all along came out of nowhere. Literally no foreshadowing or any meaningful reason to expect this guy was a criminal mastermind that eluded law enforcement and every other criminal organization. His goons are also former Marines like Frank but got wiped out as easily as any other goon in the show. Give me a break. I'm glad we'll see more of him in the MCU though. Give him screen time to be the vengeful piece of shit he is without that disappointing origin story to drag it down.
The Elektra subplot was fascinating at first but like the Punisher subplot, ended in a disappointing way. The writers were being deliberately obtuse about her origins as a trained killing machine was fine but then but that swerve us with her relationship with Stick, then threw that Black Sky reveal like it changed anything. What did that final reveal add? 2 minutes of her feeling conflicted but then immediately fine with hacking up those ninjas. The scene with that French dude also felt very out of place but I guess they needed an excuse to introduce the sais.
Speaking of the ninjas: What's up with the Hand? Those are the final antagonist of the season? They're place in the story felt really off. If they were so strong and influential then where were they last season? Why was their powerful and immortal leader Nobu 2nd banana to Fisk last season? If he was immortal then why did no one thought to decapitate him in the long life he lived? I don't know, I just wished their role as the final antagonists of the season was more clear.
Some more thoughts:
1. I thought Fisk's scenes were very well done. Arguably the my favourite part of the season. He's such a terrifying villain even when he's not a immediate danger. That confrontation with Matt had me trembling for real. Can't wait for his appearance in S3 and him eventually figuring out Matt was Daredevil all along.
2. Bless Karen but why the fuck is she constantly involved in trouble? Even the detective was like "what the fuck were you doing here?" on the final episode climax. It feels like the writer don't know what to do with her. It's fine that she was heavily involved with Frank's subplot but why drag her into the nonsense with the Hand? I have no interest in backstory the writer's keep slipping pieces in either.
3. The Foggy/Matt subplot felt like a retread of their issues from season 1. Unfortunate that they ultimately split up the law firm but I guess they'll eventually get back together?
4. I never liked Claire's role as this sole nurse who happens gets involved with all this street-level shenanigans so I'm glad she's moving on from all that.
5. Why did the writers invest so much in Matt not being a killer, enough to for him to stop Frank from killing at every opportunity possible, just to let him passively accept Elektra killing goons right beside him in those final fight scenes? What's up with that? What's up with him agreeing to let Frank kill just that one time with the Blacksmith? Why did he end up wanting to be with big ol' murdering Elektra?
I don't know what to think about this season but all I can stay is that it started off strong but ended disappointingly. Even the nonsense with JJ's last episodes was less of a mess than the Hand and the Blacksmith.
Hoping for a cool villain in S3.
I think season 2 started out really strong. Exceptionally strong. The Punisher subplot was very compelling TV. I had little expectation on how good it would be and was complete blown away from it from the get-go. That's why I was genuinely disappointed that it slowed down and took a backseat so early just for it to wrap up in the lamest way possible. The confrontation with The Blacksmith really took me away from the viewing experience. Did the writers really expect us to believe Frank's old unit all became drug runners and were responsible for a drug bust that got his family killed? The episode that revealed that his colonel was the Blacksmith all along came out of nowhere. Literally no foreshadowing or any meaningful reason to expect this guy was a criminal mastermind that eluded law enforcement and every other criminal organization. His goons are also former Marines like Frank but got wiped out as easily as any other goon in the show. Give me a break. I'm glad we'll see more of him in the MCU though. Give him screen time to be the vengeful piece of shit he is without that disappointing origin story to drag it down.
The Elektra subplot was fascinating at first but like the Punisher subplot, ended in a disappointing way. The writers were being deliberately obtuse about her origins as a trained killing machine was fine but then but that swerve us with her relationship with Stick, then threw that Black Sky reveal like it changed anything. What did that final reveal add? 2 minutes of her feeling conflicted but then immediately fine with hacking up those ninjas. The scene with that French dude also felt very out of place but I guess they needed an excuse to introduce the sais.
Speaking of the ninjas: What's up with the Hand? Those are the final antagonist of the season? They're place in the story felt really off. If they were so strong and influential then where were they last season? Why was their powerful and immortal leader Nobu 2nd banana to Fisk last season? If he was immortal then why did no one thought to decapitate him in the long life he lived? I don't know, I just wished their role as the final antagonists of the season was more clear.
Some more thoughts:
1. I thought Fisk's scenes were very well done. Arguably the my favourite part of the season. He's such a terrifying villain even when he's not a immediate danger. That confrontation with Matt had me trembling for real. Can't wait for his appearance in S3 and him eventually figuring out Matt was Daredevil all along.
2. Bless Karen but why the fuck is she constantly involved in trouble? Even the detective was like "what the fuck were you doing here?" on the final episode climax. It feels like the writer don't know what to do with her. It's fine that she was heavily involved with Frank's subplot but why drag her into the nonsense with the Hand? I have no interest in backstory the writer's keep slipping pieces in either.
3. The Foggy/Matt subplot felt like a retread of their issues from season 1. Unfortunate that they ultimately split up the law firm but I guess they'll eventually get back together?
4. I never liked Claire's role as this sole nurse who happens gets involved with all this street-level shenanigans so I'm glad she's moving on from all that.
5. Why did the writers invest so much in Matt not being a killer, enough to for him to stop Frank from killing at every opportunity possible, just to let him passively accept Elektra killing goons right beside him in those final fight scenes? What's up with that? What's up with him agreeing to let Frank kill just that one time with the Blacksmith? Why did he end up wanting to be with big ol' murdering Elektra?
I don't know what to think about this season but all I can stay is that it started off strong but ended disappointingly. Even the nonsense with JJ's last episodes was less of a mess than the Hand and the Blacksmith.
Hoping for a cool villain in S3.
The Outsider
Member
Yeah, that's true. Maybe control isn't the best word, but he clearly seems more comfortable in the role of Daredevil. Nelson and Murdock have clientele, he's on good terms with Karen, etc. Again, it really isn't until Castle and Elektra enter the picture that shit really begins to spiral and Matt gets in way over his head.
Because it's unexplained massive never ending hole in the middle of Manhattan, with no justification beyond "here's a mystery." But sure, it might be explained in a later season or in a different show. Just a little funny that it's a literal hole in the ground that serves no apparent purpose.