Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE

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I'm Garrus Vakarian and this is my favourie spot on the Citadel.

Agreed. Leaving Earth, leaving Mars, Thane's death, Mordin's death, Liara's timecapsule, looking at infinity with Liara, and so many other scenes all nailed the emotions of the moment through a combination of music, dialogue, and art design. In the face of the rest of the game, the ending doesn't seem possible.
Thessia getting overrun with reapers. Samara choosing her life over her daughters. Going through the Sol relay. Admiral Hacketts speech. Prothean VI discovery.

So many amazing moments in this game! And the ending does that? I seriously think they were running out of time and commissioned it to the guys that made the Arrival DLC. Seriously.

Also I wish people would stop harping on them for the Day 1 DLC. The extra ten bucks helps with development cost, I have no problem with that -- I'd even be ok if the game was only available through the collectors edition. It blows my mind that this game is the same price as other games that come out with such little to offer. I'm sure they could not do the big epic space battle due to budget constraints..

*added*
Holy tits. We have to start a Kickstarter for Bioware to fund them to make a proper ending... I'd so be down.
 
But I will bet that you have EA producers asking Bioware pointed questions of where they expect to take the franchise in the future if the Mass Relays and the Citadel are gone.

I was talking to Kabouter about this, and it is really interesting, as it should be the producer's job to ensure longevity of a popular intellectual property, as that is in the best interest of the parent company. Though laying framework for a potentially new 'clean slate' series of games in the universe, the changes they made and the response from fans has put them in a much worse position than they could have been in. They've once again dug themselves a hole, arguably bigger than anything else, to the point of easily damaging the perceived value and interest in the series to buyers.

We'll have to wait and see what the DLC/comics/books do to get an idea of where BioWare will take this. Both the anime and the new comic series are ME3 prequels. There's nothing post-ME3 announced yet.
 
Were all the other super minor characters (like Conrad Verner etc) you could kill or let live in the other games in ME3? I have the gimped PS3 version where they are all dead by default so I don't know.
 
Were all the other super minor characters (like Conrad Verner etc) you could kill or let live in the other games in ME3? I have the gimped PS3 version where they are all dead by default so I don't know.

Yes. Basically everyone had a cameo role. Even Balak, from the ME1 DLC, had a cameo.
 
Also I wish people would stop harping on them for the Day 1 DLC. The extra ten bucks helps with development cost, I have no problem with that -- I'd even be ok if the game was only available through the collectors edition. It blows my mind that this game is the same price as other games that come out with such little to offer. I'm sure they could not do the big epic space battle due to budget constraints..

*added*
Holy tits. We have to start a Kickstarter for Bioware to fund them to make a proper ending... I'd so be down.

The epic space battle that lasted about twenty seconds? I'm sure they could have managed without charging ten bucks for a quest on Eden Prime + some dialogue.
 
I also kind of disagree with the assertion that the game is amazing except for the ending. There's a lot of low cards in that hand that don't necessarily have anything to do with the story.

I'm interested in discussing what's flawed about Mass Effect 3 other than the ending. Could you give some examples?

In relation to the story besides the ending, I had trouble with the following stuff:

  • the Catalyst suddenly being the MacGuffin
  • Earth Kid representing the people that couldn't be saved
  • Kai Leng being the worst character in the series
  • Cerberus & Reapers being able to capture the Citadel and move it to Earth, and no one commenting on all the people there being made into goo.
  • Reapers unwilling to capture the Citadel and turn off all Mass Relays, as stated in ME1

There are probably more flaws.
 
Also I wish people would stop harping on them for the Day 1 DLC. The extra ten bucks helps with development cost, I have no problem with that -- I'd even be ok if the game was only available through the collectors edition. It blows my mind that this game is the same price as other games that come out with such little to offer. I'm sure they could not do the big epic space battle due to budget constraints..

*added*
Holy tits. We have to start a Kickstarter for Bioware to fund them to make a proper ending... I'd so be down.

If they really want the $10, they should of just make another comic for those who didn't have ME1 or 2, but wanted to play this game. It would help them to understand what is happening and give them choices that would impact their gameplay.

edit: and for those who want to change their past choices but too lazy to replay the previous games.
 
I'm laughing really hard at the indoctrination theory.

You guys are giving way too much credit to Bioware. It's not their style, it's too complicated and honestly, it doesn't fit with what we know of the dev time.

They ran out of time, had to finish the game and they made what we currently have.

Creating your own substitute ending won't change the fact that it's just a fantasy. :|

I don't see what's so unbelievable about Shepard being indoctrinated. But here's something else to consider: look at the post MassiveEffects quoted (it's a few posts down).

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423/277

Looking back at the Illusive Man confrontation, Anderson never bleeds from the gunshot. Shepard does though, from the exact spot Anderson was shot. The blood on Shepard's arm disappears after being taken to the top of the Crucible.

That hardly seems like something that would happen if Shepard was in reality at that time.
 
ENORMOUS PLOT HOLE:



If the kid-AI lives in the Citadel, so why the reapers needed to activate its mass relay "manually" in MassEffect 1?
 
Were all the other super minor characters (like Conrad Verner etc) you could kill or let live in the other games in ME3? I have the gimped PS3 version where they are all dead by default so I don't know.

If you let Conrad Verner lives in ME1 and ME2. He's there in ME3 and reveal he has a PhD in Dark Energy studies. You need the matriarch writings from ME1 and some of the vendors licenses to complete his quest. Later on he gets attacked by a thug and survives only if you rescued Jenna from Fist's bar in ME1.

The Batarian pirate from the ME1 DLC is there in ME3 if you let him live in ME1. He's behind the hacking on the citadel and can join your war assets if your Reputation is high enough.

David from Project Overload ME2 DLC is at Grissom Academy. Archer from the same DLC is at the base during Jacob's mission.

Doctor Chakwas and Doctor Michel are at the hospital if they lived. The two engineers from ME2 are in jail but you can recruit them through your Spectre's terminal.

The Asari barmaid on Illium (which is a matriach) shows up on the Citadel and reveals she's Liara's dad.

There's probably more though.
 
well, shep reaches the control panel or whatever of the catalyst, and has the power to unleash the macguffin on the macguffinators. harbinger (who according to the theory has been trying to indoctrinate shep all through the game BEHIND THE SCENES) is too far away to blast them (but close enough to indoctrinate) and tricks shepard into doing something, w/e.

I'm not sure anyone has been trying to argue that Harbinger has been trying to indoctrinate Shepard through the entire game (although we should be aware of the fact that Shepard has spent a good deal of time around Reaper tech, which was enough to indoctrinate a few people).

There is no reason to think, for instance, that the dream sequences are a subtle form of indoctrination. Personally, I see them as visual indications that Shepard possesses an internal psychological state marked by fear and doubt - and the child serves as a symbol of everything that could be destroyed if she fails. That's the setup: Shepard does dream, does doubt, does use the kid as an embodiment of everything she holds dear and which could be taken away with just one wrong choice. These are all elements that are primed to be manipulated by creatures well known for their manipulative practices. And considering that Shepard has been, and in London, is surrounded by Reapers, it seems sensible that they would strike at her fragility.

Could they have just blown up her body instead of trying to perform an elaborate lie in order to indoctrinate her? Sure. But considering Harbinger's apparent love of mind games and how the importance of Shepard's life is fighting for unity and self-determination, it's thematically meaningful that the Reapers try to claim her as a trophy. If they can mentally topple Shepard, the one person who seems to resist their grand plan, then it is a symbol of their ultimate power over organic life. After all, there are multiple instances in which Shepard is referred to as an icon that inspires hope in others, and multiple characters recognize that crushing hope is the best way to conquer an enemy.

Also, it's just as unreasonable to weave these elements together into an indoctrination theory as it is to propose that "it isn't in Bioware's style." Both are attempts at creating patterns out of disparate elements. But the indoctrination theory relies on nothing more than the "text" itself, while the "lol Bioware can't write" idea relies on a number of assumptions: that every Bioware project must conform to the same standards, ideas and themes; that every Bioware writer is the same, and will write the same in every project; and that you have a clear understanding of the game's development, the writer's mindset and the team's intent on rejecting or embracing fan expectations. I see the latter as quite a bit more risky than the former.
 
I don't see what's so unbelievable about Shepard being indoctrinated. But here's something else to consider: look at the post MassiveEffects quoted (it's a few posts down).

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423/277

Looking back at the Illusive Man confrontation, Anderson never bleeds from the gunshot. Shepard does though, from the exact spot Anderson was shot. The blood on Shepard's arm disappears after being taken to the top of the Crucible.

That hardly seems like something that would happen if Shepard was in reality at that time.

lol the disappearing blood on the arm was an obvious mistake lol COmE ONNNN
 
how convienient is it that you can stroll from the human collection site in the citadel to the control panel for the citadel?
 
I'm interested in discussing what's flawed about Mass Effect 3 other than the ending. Could you give some examples?

In relation to the story besides the ending, I had trouble with the following stuff:

  • the Catalyst suddenly being the MacGuffin
  • Earth Kid representing the people that couldn't be saved
  • Kai Leng being the worst character in the series
  • Cerberus & Reapers being able to capture the Citadel and move it to Earth, and no one commenting on all the people there being made into goo.
  • Reapers unwilling to capture the Citadel and turn off all Mass Relays, as stated in ME1

There are probably more flaws.

Kai Leng was definitely stupid.

The Crucible should have been set up in ME2 (although I'm sure they hadn't thought of it yet).

Udina's sudden turn. Well it felt sudden to me. Sure he was always a jerk but I didn't see him ever doing something like that.

Vega was a waste of a spot. He wasn't terrible but I'd have rather seen that spot go to an alien species.

I felt Legion deserved to be a party member since he got the shaft in ME2, but I guess given his storyline it was alright.

The EDI/Joker stuff was creepy.

Really good game though... until those last 10 minutes where it spirals down the toilet.
 
I don't see what's so unbelievable about Shepard being indoctrinated.

Indoctrination Theory amounts to fans wanting desperately to believe the ending made sense and was quite good. Squall's Dead, Rinoa=Ultimecia, etc.

Does it make sense? Sure it does! Is there evidence marshaled to the cause? Of course.

There's a confirmation bias and flawed methodology in all of this, though. Fans are starting with the conclusion ("Shep was indoctrinated") and then working backward with this assumption as correct, and through this lens, one can find a ton in the game that seems to support this assumption.

- The in-game Codex entry for Indoctrination? That's a good piece of evidence.
- The audio layering of the growl when the kid appears? That's an example of approaching the scene searching for clues and interpreting what happens to be supportive.

I want to know why my badass, renegade, leave-no-witnesses Shepard gives a fuck about this kid.

Made the nightmare scenes cringe-worthy for me. Every time they popped up, I kept thinking "I wanted my char to not give a damn if the kid died on Earth, billions dying everywhere, and that hoodie wearing punk is what haunts my dreams? Fuck that."

Also why Liara's whining on Thessia annoyed me so much. "Oh I can't believe this, I can't go on, I can't... this is so much worse than anything else happening anywhere". Garrus and Palaven wanna have a word with you. So does Shep, Vega, etc. and Earth.
 
how convienient is it that you can stroll from the human collection site in the citadel to the control panel for the citadel?

About as convenient as the fact that the Reapers never attacked the Citadel during the whole game while they attacked every other worlds even if their master plan involves controlling the relays through the Citadel.
 
He says he was not able to do that before. The magical crucible changed him and gave him this new magic power.

When the crucible ditch the outer armor shells when docking the citadel, it looked like a giant microphone. At that point, I thought some galactic idol will sing and lead the world to peace.
 
Mass Effect 3 is getting hammered on Amazon reviews. A united alliance of humans of every race, simply enraged at the ending. Goddamn, Bioware has really called the wrath of the internet upon themselves.

pzdWF.jpg
 
Indoctrination Theory amounts to fans wanting desperately to believe the ending made sense and was quite good. Squall's Dead, Rinoa=Ultimecia, etc.

Does it make sense? Sure it does! Is there evidence marshaled to the cause? Of course.

There's a confirmation bias and flawed methodology in all of this, though. Fans are starting with the conclusion ("Shep was indoctrinated") and then working backward with this assumption as correct, and through this lens, one can find a ton in the game that seems to support this assumption.

- The in-game Codex entry for Indoctrination? That's a good piece of evidence.
- The audio layering of the growl when the kid appears? That's an example of approaching the scene searching for clues and interpreting what happens to be supportive.

Even if we presume Bioware is capable of something as directly counterintuitive to what they previously have been doing for the last 15+ years, the ending message that states "Shep is legend and did it for the universe! Go buy DLC" clearly negates the Indoctrination theory.

SECOND ENORMOUS PLOT HOLE:

if the kid-AI is capable of destroying all the synth life with the crucible, why using the reapers?

Aliens. Or Green/Blue/Red Space Magic.

Udina's sudden turn. Well it felt sudden to me. Sure he was always a jerk but I didn't see him ever doing something like that.

I think the conversation with him at the office hinted at him being tired of humanity being alone and without any help from the other races. Coupled with his previous humanity-first opinions, I thought his turn was to some extent believable.

The EDI/Joker stuff was creepy.

As creepy as fucking blue aliens with tentacles? Or having sex with bipedal dragons/frogs?

Mass Effect 3 is getting hammered on Amazon reviews. A united alliance of humans of every race, simply enraged at the ending. Goddamn, Bioware has really called the wrath of the internet upon themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/pzdWF.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

I imagine people are acting like this [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXLVFnl3WcE[/url]
 
Even if we presume Bioware is capable of something as directly counterintuitive to what they previously have been doing for the last 15+ years, the ending message that states "Shep is legend and did it for the universe! Go buy DLC" clearly negates the Indoctrination theory.



Aliens. Or Green/Blue/Red Space Magic.



I think the conversation with him at the office hinted at him being tired of humanity being alone and without any help from the other races. Coupled with his previous humanity-first opinions, I thought his turn was to some extent believable.



As creepy as fucking blue aliens with tentacles? Or having sex with bipedal dragons/frogs?
Taurians are birds, right?
 
Indoctrination Theory amounts to fans wanting desperately to believe the ending made sense and was quite good. Squall's Dead, Rinoa=Ultimecia, etc.

Does it make sense? Sure it does! Is there evidence marshaled to the cause? Of course.

There's a confirmation bias and flawed methodology in all of this, though. Fans are starting with the conclusion ("Shep was indoctrinated") and then working backward with this assumption as correct, and through this lens, one can find a ton in the game that seems to support this assumption.

- The in-game Codex entry for Indoctrination? That's a good piece of evidence.
- The audio layering of the growl when the kid appears? That's an example of approaching the scene searching for clues and interpreting what happens to be supportive.

True, some of the evidence seems like it could be a stretch by people desperate for the ending to not be terrible, but until someone can come up with a good reason why Shepard was bleeding from where Anderson was shot and why that blood disappeared later, and how Shepard would possibly be able to fall from the Crucible, re-enter orbit, and survive, I'm sticking with the indoctrination theory.

Oh, and the explanation has to be better than "lol, Bioware."

I don't see how people could chalk those up to fans just reaching for straws to make the ending better. Neither of them could possibly make sense without Shepard actually being indoctrinated.

Even if the indoctrination theory is right though, it's irritating knowing Shepard is laying in a pile of rubble on Earth, and the Reapers still haven't been dealt with when I thought that's how the game was supposed to end.
 
Mass Effect 3 is getting hammered on Amazon reviews. A united alliance of humans of every race, simply enraged at the ending. Goddamn, Bioware has really called the wrath of the internet upon themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/pzdWF.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

Ah, that sucks. I still feel for developers and I know there's a lot more people that work on a game then those that were responsible for the ending. Must be a pain (for some of them) to see a game they worked on getting screwed up because of some higher ups choices for the ending.
 
The Darth Bane novels are really good. (Well the first two, the third is ok)
nicolascagelaugh3hccq.gif

WHYTF the kid Ai says that the cycle exists to protect the organics to create sintethics and fight against them, when the only robotic menace are the reapers?(especially in the prothean cycle)?

And why every 50.000?

And HOWTF can he says that the reapers preserves orgnic life building new repaers with it?
It's like an hunter of a rare animal says the same killing them for creating a trophy.

damn crapware!

Imagine you're a hunter. In order to keep the tigers from killing off all the deer in the world, you kill the best tigers so that later on the deer can be at the top of the food chain in 50,000 years. It's protecting the youngest races from the oldest ones.
 
Kai Leng was definitely stupid.

The Crucible should have been set up in ME2 (although I'm sure they hadn't thought of it yet).

Udina's sudden turn. Well it felt sudden to me. Sure he was always a jerk but I didn't see him ever doing something like that.

Vega was a waste of a spot. He wasn't terrible but I'd have rather seen that spot go to an alien species.

I felt Legion deserved to be a party member since he got the shaft in ME2, but I guess given his storyline it was alright.

The EDI/Joker stuff was creepy.

Really good game though... until those last 10 minutes where it spirals down the toilet.

Udina's motivation is expanded upon in some e-mail or thing elsewhere. He wasn't a Cerberus agent, he just contacted them to help him assume total control over the council to get access to the council fleet so he could take it to immediately liberate Earth because he was getting fed up with how long Shepard was taking.
 
Udina's motivation is expanded upon in some e-mail or thing elsewhere. He wasn't a Cerberus agent, he just contacted them to help him assume total control over the council to get access to the council fleet so he could take it to immediately liberate Earth because he was getting fed up with how long Shepard was taking.

His Codex entry, yeah. It also speculates that he may have been indoctrinated.
 
ENORMOUS PLOT HOLE:



If the kid-AI lives in the Citadel, so why the reapers needed to activate its mass relay "manually" in MassEffect 1?

SECOND ENORMOUS PLOT HOLE:

if the kid-AI is capable of destroying all the synth life with the crucible, why using the reapers?


Neither of those are plot-holes.

1. We can assume that the AI only has control of the Reapers, the keepers are still in charge of the citadel relay.
The "hands" of this AI.

2. He can do it, but this will not stop the creation of synthetic life in the future.
 
nicolascagelaugh3hccq.gif



Imagine you're a hunter. In order to keep the tigers from killing off all the deer in the world, you kill the best tigers so that later on the deer can be at the top of the food chain in 50,000 years. It's protecting the youngest races from the oldest ones.
But deer are herbivores
 
Indoctrination DLC theorists have been indoctrinated by BioWare/EA to believe that change and positivity can come if you just remain hopeful and align yourselves (and your money) with the company.

*buys all the DLC*
 
Joker is willing to tap that robotic ass, yet turns down Shepard?

Commander fucking Shepard?

Fuck you Bioware. /rage
 
True, some of the evidence seems like it could be a stretch by people desperate for the ending to not be terrible, but until someone can come up with a good reason why Shepard was bleeding from where Anderson was shot and why that blood disappeared later, and how Shepard would possibly be able to fall from the Crucible, re-enter orbit, and survive, I'm sticking with the indoctrination theory.

Oh, and the explanation has to be better than "lol, Bioware."

I don't see how people could chalk those up to fans just reaching for straws to make the ending better. Neither of them could possibly make sense without Shepard actually being indoctrinated.

Even if the indoctrination theory is right though, it's irritating knowing Shepard is laying in a pile of rubble on Earth, and the Reapers still haven't been dealt with when I thought that's how the game was supposed to end.

Seriously? Ok. Shepard was shot as she was running toward the teleport beam. This is different from being normal shot because her armor was gone and you could not avoid it. The only part where her arm is bloody THE ONLY PART is when she looked at it while Anderson was dying before that it was just dirty and after it was just dirty, this is just an oversight and nothing more, a mistake among dozens of others of Bioware not using the correct model probably because the bloody model was only a close up of her hand and they didn't feel like making a whole new model just for that.
 
Seriously? Ok. Shepard was shot as she was running toward the teleport beam. This is different from being normal shot because her armor was gone and you could not avoid it. The only part where her arm is bloody THE ONLY PART is when she looked at it while Anderson was dying before that it was just dirty and after it was just dirty, this is just an oversight and nothing more, a mistake among dozens of others of Bioware not using the correct model probably because the bloody model was only a close up of her hand and they didn't feel like making a whole new model just for that.

Should've photoshopped it in
 
Mass Effect FB has been responding to some about the bad ending with vague answers like, "hang in there". Probably reading too much into it... but who knows.

I know. They wont.
 
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