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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow

RDreamer

Member
On 3: What happens when the Synth-Organics create new Synthetics?! And those Synthetics try to destroy them?!

Trying to destroy them isn't the problem. The problem is that synthetics, in the reapers mind, would always gain the ability to upgrade themselves to infinity and could (and would) at one point wipe out organics. When you have synth-organics and they create simple synthetics there is a far less probability that the inferior simple synthetics would or could wholesale wipe out synthetics. The other thing is that the dichotomy would still be completely changed. The reason the created rebel against the creators now is because of control and misunderstanding between two completely and utterly different lifeforms. If they are hybrids, the theory is that they would still be synthetics. They are not going to try and control any synthetics they create, because they are the same. They understand each other in a way that organics and synthetics right now do not.

On 3: And why would EVERYONE BEING THE SAME ROBO-MEN somehow stop them from having differences? I mean, if I wanna bang your ROBO-WIFE, and I do, you gonna be all like, "NAH DAWG, I AINS MAD, CAUSE WE ROBO-BROS."

Again, I never said they wouldn't have differences. For fuck's sake are you guys reading anything? The problem that the reapers saw and set out to solve was that there was an eventuality that synthetics (the superior beings in ways of war) would absolutely wipe out organics (the squishy inferior beings). The problem wasn't that they would fight. It wasn't that they had problems. It wasn't that they had differences. The problem was that at some point in the future organics would no longer exist at all. They saw value in organic life and the chaos that sprouts from it. Their ultimate evolution was to combine the two into a superior being, which could be described (and as Saren describes) as having all the benefits of both, but the weaknesses of neither.
 
i think rdreamer thinks the reapers are actually real and not fictional characters whose motivations were entirely up to a writer's whims and thus the explanation couldn't have worked any other way
 
Trying to destroy them isn't the problem. The problem is that synthetics, in the reapers mind, would always gain the ability to upgrade themselves to infinity and could (and would) at one point wipe out organics. When you have synth-organics and they create simple synthetics there is a far less probability that the inferior simple synthetics would or could wholesale wipe out synthetics. The other thing is that the dichotomy would still be completely changed. The reason the created rebel against the creators now is because of control and misunderstanding between two completely and utterly different lifeforms. If they are hybrids, the theory is that they would still be synthetics. They are not going to try and control any synthetics they create, because they are the same. They understand each other in a way that organics and synthetics right now do not.



Again, I never said they wouldn't have differences. For fuck's sake are you guys reading anything? The problem that the reapers saw and set out to solve was that there was an eventuality that synthetics (the superior beings in ways of war) would absolutely wipe out organics (the squishy inferior beings). The problem wasn't that they would fight. It wasn't that they had problems. It wasn't that they had differences. The problem was that at some point in the future organics would no longer exist at all. They saw value in organic life and the chaos that sprouts from it. Their ultimate evolution was to combine the two into a superior being, which could be described (and as Saren describes) as having all the benefits of both, but the weaknesses of neither.

So why, instead of just creating this paradise of Synthesis, did they instead go on a spree of at least 37 million years of repeated galactic genocide and devastation? And if the problem is that Synthetics could (would?) kill all life, why couldn't organic life do the same thing? All it takes is a doomsday cult mentality, weapons to back it up, and a desire to cleanse the galaxy in a holy fire. How is that a Synthetic only issue? I mean, if the Vent God had said something along the lines of, "Life reaches a point where there is no purpose to continue, you've reached your zenith and the risk of galaxy destruction is too high, so we hit a reset button every 50,000 years so that the struggle and journey can begin anew." would make much, much more sense.
 

RDreamer

Member
i think rdreamer thinks the reapers are actually real and not fictional characters whose motivations were entirely up to a writer's whims and thus the explanation couldn't have worked any other way

I realize they're up to the writer's whims. I'm just explaining what those whims likely were, and what that writer was likely getting at.

Remember, at no point did I say this was somehow some astounding and profound ending that was perfectly written and had no problems whatsoever. I have stated, outright in fact, that the ending was poorly written.
 
Many science fiction authors tackle AI / Synthetics in different ways. Larry Niven, for example, suggests that any sufficiently powerful AI will eventually go catatonic, as it can create and live out entire universes inside its own "mind"/processing power/etc, eventually losing touch with our reality completely.

Mass Effect, on the other hand, seems to suggest that AI's are more of the technology singularity, Godhood upgrade, who will eventually see all life as a threat? and decide to kill it? Or something? I don't know. The few examples of AI we are given, due to the Council Races ban on it, are initially seen as homocidal, but eventually revealed to be entirely open to the idea of coexistence. What other evidence are we given that AI's and Organics will never be able to live in peace? Javik and his view on his races AI?

It just doesn't make sense. (Bad writing, I know). But are the Reaper's more fearing the "WHAT IF???" than any actual grounds to believe it will ever actually happen?

And again, what would happen if an Organic lifeform decided to do the same thing? How is that different?
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Well, I beat the game last week and have been thinking about it a ton, and just last night after watching a friend play the Ranaoch mission (with significantly different results than my Shepard)and the Thessia mission. I have come to the conclusion that I actually like the ending, but do not like the execution.


I like everything up until you choose your option and there is an underwhelming cutscene. IE I dont like the fact that Joker and crew are running for no apparent reason, and I think there should have been a small cut scene showing what happened to Harbinger specifically.


I like the fact that the Reapers were not in fact the ultimate beings in the universe, and that they were in fact an intelligent process by another more advanced race. I don't think this diminishes the Reapers as an enemy, as they are still an almost incomprehensibly powerful species, and without the Crucible surley would have completed the cycle. 


I like the idea of the Catalyst, perhaps more than most because it reminds me of an article I had read about a week before finishing the game...

"When you look at the current level at which our own technology is advancing, quantum computing, cloaking technology, robotics, nanotech, communications. It's not really such a far stretch to think that somewhere out there among the trillions of possible life harboring planets, that another intelligent civilization has done the same things. If they had even a 100 year head start on us they would already be so far advanced, now give them a 1000 year head start or even a 1 million year head start. Their technology would be so far in advance of our own. They could literally be here right now. Existing inside and outside of our known reality. Hidden only by a technological barrier. If they were a billion years older than our civilization i doubt we could even comprehend there technology. A type 3 civilization as Michio Kaku says would have the technology to harness the power of an entire galaxy. Who knows what a type 4 civilization would resemble. When you consider how short 1 million years is on a cosmic scale, its not out of the realm of possibilities."-posted on the dailygalaxy.
 
along with many other theory's and guesses at advanced life in the universe. 

I think that the Catalyst being behind the Reapers motivations lives up to Sovereigns promise that their purpose was incomprehensible to us. Sure we can get the gist of it, they are here to harvest all advanced organic life to preserve it as the ultimate end of evolution every 50,000 years. To save it from otherwise being simpley destroyed by synthetics eventually. But their ultimate motivations and the thought process behind them are still not clear.(Give that ME is a story created and written by humans, the Catalyst and its ambiguity was necessary  to keep the concept of motivations  we can't understand)


Then I started thinking of the motivations of the race that is whatever the catalyst beings are, what are their motivations for wanting to save us? What if it is because ultimately they know (from experience) that evolution will allow another species to "catch up" to them, to be their equal, or otherwise, a competitor. What better way to stop that from happening than the Reaper cycle? Preventing both synthetics and organics from achieving this. Of course in order for this to be the motivation of the catalyst that assumes that there is some lying going on on its end, (Synergy would likely in the end entail some sort of control by the Catalyst, as would the Control option, which is why they are presented  as Paragon by the Catalyst) but would that really be suprising?  

Or it could be that a species that far advanced had really come to appreciate life, and thought that preserving it via the Reapers was better than all remnants and history of the species being erased from the Universe inevitably by some other force, likely synthetics of their own creation . 

This is where the Rannoch mission comes into play, people that got the best outcome for this mission,(as I did) may think that this disproves what the Catalyst says. However after seeing my friend play the same mission, something became clear. From the point of view of the Catalyst war with the synthetics  is inevitable. They are right, or at least right enough to be skeptical of any peace that Shepard may have secured for now. The simple fact that all it took was for Shepard to make a couple wrong decisions and the Geth wiped out the Quarians (or visa versa) shows that peace would likely not last forever. The only way they could EVER fully get along is if they were one in the same. (The synergy/singularity ending). Which further indicates that the Catalyst wanted you to select either control, or synergy, not destroy. Yet still gave you the choice, because in the end the Catalyst is likely powerful enough to rectify it if need be.

Are the Catalysts from the Milky way? Or are they capable of traveling with ease between the vastness of dark space, placing Reapers on the rim of every galaxy, and relays throughout each? Harvesting or "preserving" life on a scale that humans cannot begin to comprehend? 

I could go on with many theory's, but that is what I enjoyed about the ending of ME3. It had something the rest of ME3 lacked, and something ME2 and especially ME1 had in spades. Mystery. The Catalyst's very existence, something greater than the Reapers, means things are not as simple as Shepard, and galactic civilization as a whole thought. There is always a bigger fish.

Where Bioware went wrong, is execution of these grand ideas. The cutscene with the Normandy did not make any sense, but it could of if they had just filled that little plothole with a small cutscene or line of dialogue, just given Joker and crew a reason to be leaving through the relays. Like being chased by Harbinger for instance, who has a personal vendetta against Shepherd and crew. 

A cutscene showing him chasing after one of your squadmates, and then the Normandy doing a pickup, a few ominous lines from Harbinger about how he is going to end this Resistance once and for all by destroying the normandy, and you could easily have them running from him (with every intention of returning) and have the "space magic" from the crucible come from behind as it did, but this time "saving" the Normandy from Harbinger. 

2 birds, one stone, Normandy cutscene makes sense, and you get more visual closure on the Reapers and specifically Harbinger, while still keeping the essence of the original ending intact.

That would be more satisfying to me and many others I think, and I made it up as I type this....


There are a couple other smaller plotholes or issues that could be easily patched with a couple cutscenes or lines of dialouge. I would go into them but I feel at this point I am ranting, and I am on my iPad..

All in all, great and brave move for the ending Bioware, half assed execution though.
 

alerus

Neo Member
Trying to destroy them isn't the problem. The problem is that synthetics, in the reapers mind, would always gain the ability to upgrade themselves to infinity and could (and would) at one point wipe out organics. When you have synth-organics and they create simple synthetics there is a far less probability that the inferior simple synthetics would or could wholesale wipe out synthetics. The other thing is that the dichotomy would still be completely changed. The reason the created rebel against the creators now is because of control and misunderstanding between two completely and utterly different lifeforms. If they are hybrids, the theory is that they would still be synthetics. They are not going to try and control any synthetics they create, because they are the same. They understand each other in a way that organics and synthetics right now do not.


I completely disagree that people would stop trying to control synthetics. One of the major flaws in Mass Effect and really enumerable scifi stories where sentience seemingly appears in surprise of the creators is that it will never happen that way. If you gain the ability to create sentience you can be damn sure that we'll know in advance what it is and have a good handle on how and why it operates, at least at the fundamental levels that entail whether it will rebel or not. Given that, smart AI slaves is a very real possibility, although it will be done in a way for which the moral answer is going to be ambiguous. For instance, creating an AI that gains "gratification" from serving its master. Creating servitude will always be on the table and the fact that parts will be shared wont change that.



Again, I never said they wouldn't have differences. For fuck's sake are you guys reading anything? The problem that the reapers saw and set out to solve was that there was an eventuality that synthetics (the superior beings in ways of war) would absolutely wipe out organics (the squishy inferior beings). The problem wasn't that they would fight. It wasn't that they had problems. It wasn't that they had differences. The problem was that at some point in the future organics would no longer exist at all. They saw value in organic life and the chaos that sprouts from it. Their ultimate evolution was to combine the two into a superior being, which could be described (and as Saren describes) as having all the benefits of both, but the weaknesses of neither.


There is a really weird leap in the Reaper's logic: why would the synthetics wipe out *all* organics? Why wouldn't they just stop at the ones that are threatening their existence or their ability to act as they see fit? It serves no point and would require enormous resource to maintain since organics keep evolving (e.g., creating their own reapers). It makes far more sense to take out ones that threaten you and ignore lesser beings. Or are we also stipulating that organics who subsequently evolve and enter the galactic community run by synthetics will immediately try and control them even though there was never even any history between them and even though the synthetics at that point will be way beyond these new galactic organics? That the far superior synthetics wouldn't be able to make peace with the newly evolved organic races?

Also, if the argument is that by hybridizing organics that they'll be able to self upgrade to defend themselves, all that means is that they're ultimately not going to be the organics they were anyway, because "keeping up" means radically changing who they are anyway and you're left with the same end game of synthetics running around anyway; it's just that one was a gradual transition whereas the other was created differently from the onset.



And of course if synthesis is considered a "solution" why wasn't it plan 'A' instead of out right murder of trillions upon trillions over millions of years?
 

Hmm. The more I look at it, after beginning to watch this, the more I wonder: Was the intro to Mass Effect 3 changed from something else to what it is now? If you look at the issues Smudboy points out (I hadn't even noticed the "COURTROOM" on the side of the wall.) It appears that this would have been your trial. Or perhaps the verdict? And instead of going that route, they kept the same cinematics and simply rewrote the script to be a "Defense Committee Meeting" instead of your Trial.
 

Arjen

Member
Hmm. The more I look at it, after beginning to watch this, the more I wonder: Was the intro to Mass Effect 3 changed from something else to what it is now? If you look at the issues Smudboy points out (I hadn't even noticed the "COURTROOM" on the side of the wall.) It appears that this would have been your trial. Or perhaps the verdict? And instead of going that route, they kept the same cinematics and simply rewrote the script to be a "Defense Committee Meeting" instead of your Trial.

Well, i think it was planned that ME3 would start with the trial on earth, would've made a lot more sense, and especially to new players and people who never played Arrival. But i guess it was cut, maybe to have a more "epic" opening or whatever.
 
This is not a shot at the PS3, but do you think the game suffered for going to the PS3? Not in terms of polish of the game, but time taken away to make 3 quality games instead of just 2.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Me too. I wish I could kill Jacob in ME3. Even trying to exit a discussion with him takes forever in the hospital. Fuck you and your dad. Cry moar while other people have real problems. I'd say the same for Miranda but dat ass.

As I recall, you bring up his dad. Stop blaming him for being an idiot and bringing up his dad.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Because Ashely is a racist. Because she wanted to kill Wrex. Because Kaiden is a person?


.

Ashley is xenophobic and has reason to be. And she never wants to kill Wrex unless you are a failure at squad influence.

Its a shame took Ashley from one of the only two interesting characters in 1 to a boring standin with nothing much to say in 3.
 

DarkKyo

Member
On 3: What happens when the Synth-Organics create new Synthetics?! And those Synthetics try to destroy them?! And why would EVERYONE BEING THE SAME ROBO-MEN somehow stop them from having differences? I mean, if I wanna bang your ROBO-WIFE, and I do, you gonna be all like, "NAH DAWG, I AINS MAD, CAUSE WE ROBO-BROS."



uOjlE.jpg

Synth-organics know not to create pure synthetics from that point on. They create new types of synth-organics.
 

Omega

Banned
Urgh after what I just read on Reddit the ending is going to be the least of Mass Effects problems. This is a leak that originated from 4chan so already the source is incredibly suspicious. Reading through the leak my brain kept yelling "BULLSHIT" so ordinarily I would discount this crap. However after the god awful endings the leak sounds like it is something Bioware would actually do.

I will link to the post rather than paste it in here. Be aware if it is true there will be spoilers for the next Mass Effect :-

http://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/rcl7e/more_possible_leaked_information/


Haha, half of this sounds so stupid it's not even funny. As someone said, it seems too fake to be fake though. I have friends that come up with the most ridiculous nonsense but they couldn't even come up with stuff like this.

I really hope this is fake though. It just seems like a joke of a series..and why would a Volus be the main antagonist? A volus. Really?
 

Coxswain

Member
Synth-organics know not to create pure synthetics from that point on. They create new types of synth-organics.

1) Based on what information can we say that synth-organics "know" not to create pure synthetics.

2) What is the difference between creating a pure synthetic life form that turns around and annihilates the synth-organic creators, and creating a new synth-organic life form that turns around and annihilates the synth-organic creators?
 

DarkKyo

Member
How would they know this if nothing about their personalities, thoughts, opinions, etc. have been changed?

Maybe they have the wisdom, intelligence, and efficiency(think the synthetic-half of themselves) to live without such a creation. They can use other technologies to make their lives easier without resorting to AI and synthetic creations. You'd imagine even future synthetic tools like starships and such could also be made to be bio-synthetic because it is the smartest way to make things for bio-synthetic beings.
 

Epicus Failus

Neo Member
Why is that even relevant? It was incomplete and only the core of what would be a Reaper. It wasn't a real full fledged one.

The dude states that Shep never killed a reaper, that's wrong. He also nitpicks other graphical limitations of the game as flaws in the plot. His analysis is kinda meh.
 

Dresden

Member
Urgh after what I just read on Reddit the ending is going to be the least of Mass Effects problems. This is a leak that originated from 4chan so already the source is incredibly suspicious. Reading through the leak my brain kept yelling "BULLSHIT" so ordinarily I would discount this crap. However after the god awful endings the leak sounds like it is something Bioware would actually do.

I will link to the post rather than paste it in here. Be aware if it is true there will be spoilers for the next Mass Effect :-

http://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/rcl7e/more_possible_leaked_information/

lol
 

Rapstah

Member
The dude states that Shep never killed a reaper, that's wrong. He also nitpicks other graphical limitations of the game as flaws in the plot. His analysis is kinda meh.

Shepard never does kill a Reaper Soverign-class unit. If you are going to count Destroyers or ME2's final boss then you might as well count Husks.
 
The dude states that Shep never killed a reaper, that's wrong. He also nitpicks other graphical limitations of the game as flaws in the plot. His analysis is kinda meh.
No, that's not wrong. The proto-reaper was incomplete. It was a child and cannot be compared to Sovereign or the the Destroyer Reapers attacking earth and the rest of the galaxy. It was a complete joke.

I didn't watch the entire video, what graphical limitations was he complaining about?
 
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