I would definitely be interested what Karpyshyn's reaction was to all this, though I don't think he will ever speak out.
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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow
- Thread starter Patryn
- Start date
I like this explanation best of all.
I would have liked it better if the game just cut out before Shephard ascended.
It isn't. The guy who said that is a dick.
FrontalMonk
Banned
really? I kind of always figured the "choice" was going to be kind of like it was in ME1, except instead of just "Protect the Destiny Ascension" or "Hang back for a while" you coordinate the races to make more or less rash decisions to inflict more damage to the reapers but threatening the race's extinction (esp. in the case of something like the Quarians, where they brought their entire civ with them). Then in the end Reapers are destroyed, but at terrible cost, doing the impossible, etc.
Everything that built up to hitting the crucible felt like "our fleets are being annihilated as we speak, you've gotta use the macguffin now", kinda like bringing the shield of the Death Star 2 down before the whole Alliance fleet got wiped out in ROTJ.
If the AI is on the Citadel why cant he just take it over? Why doesnt he just close it so you cant activate the crucible? How in 2000 cycles did they never find out about the Crucible plans and nullify them?
Problem is, they don't look superior while doing so. Let's look at these new solutions to the problem of the created wiping out their creators (let's just assume it always happens):
- Give the (soon to be) saviour of the galaxy control of the mechanism that imposes order on the Galaxy. ...Then what? Hope for the best, maybe Shepard controlled Reapers will wait a little longer before they 'save' a species? Maybe they'll find a way to save them from the synthetics instead? Hey, that'd be cool, right? Just hack the fucking robots! ...So why hasn't Star Child though of this? Are we to assume that the damned thing had such limited reasoning capacity?
- Destroy the Reapers. Which solves - nothing. This solution boils down to: "Well, fuck it then. I'm taking my order and going home. Enjoy your inevitable annihilation sometime in the future." It solves shit. But hey, I guess the Reapers themselves illustrate the dangers of synthetic life best. This time, they can't wipe themselves from history either, so maybe that'll knock some sense into anyone doing AI research and the like. For eternity. (It won't.) Maybe another synthetic life form will come to the same conclusions, but meanwhile we're looking at organics being wiped out by synthetics. I suppose that's OK. Transition periods are difficult.
- Synthesis. Somehow merge synthetic and organic life. Ignore the hows and whats, because space magic. Presumably, this new symbiotic life will have no need to create yet another form of life that will eventually seek to destroy its creators. Eternal peace for everyone, because... Because the order of synthetic life and the chaos of organic life complement one another perfectly and blah blah blah. Yin yang, light and darkness. Something something. It's wide open and the best ending by virtue of not being the other two.
That's just one "race", seems like a very minor sacrifice considering.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Got it. So it wasn't hidden somewhere in the game that I missed. Production notes are bullshit though and I wouldn't count it as canon. Still it is kind of lame and if it was 10k years later I'm not sure I buy into the whole idea that "people would still be talking about it." After that much time, the story of Shepard and the Reapers would pretty much just be a myth.
That at least makes some sense. I would have to believe that there are some worlds that would still have the resources necessary for space flight, even on limited levels. Like I've said before, I get that the loss of the Relays limits travel significantly, but I still feel like space flight would exist on some levels, even if they were pretty minimal.
Haunted
Member
I smell a cross promotion mobile game Mass Effect surfing simulator incoming.
So maybe its really that organics inevitably kill all synthetics...WOAH
Chuckpebble
Member
Don't have the game. Have been following a lot of the discussions though. Found this in my sub box this morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6e9nokg1NQ&feature=colike
If you don't have YouTube Me!, thats a collaborated ending montage from egoraptor's channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6e9nokg1NQ&feature=colike
If you don't have YouTube Me!, thats a collaborated ending montage from egoraptor's channel.
If ME2 didn't establish that all of the Sol System's planets are horribly depleted (and can barely sustain the Normandy, let alone the thousands of races), then that might have worked. Other worlds may have the dry resources to sustain flight, but nothing too far as to go to another system in a reasonable timeframe.
Well shit. Sovereign kinda had an excuse because Saren was in the middle of doing it, but if they had the time to actually send the Citadel through a Mass Relay to Earth, why didn't they just have Marauder Shields to do... well shit.
heliosRAzi
Banned
My shep doesn't commit genocide no matter how advantageous it might be. And no one's Shep takes what the Catalyst said at face value.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Absolutely. The thousands of ships in the Sol System are fucked, definitely agree. I'm just thinking that there might be some planets that still have resources and a few ships to travel. They'd have to use them judiciously of course, but space flight wouldn't necessarily be completely gone.
Now that said, it's not like Earth is the only planet getting destroyed. Pretty much every where else is going to have plenty on their plate in terms of rebuilding as well. Space travel will probably be a very low priority considering the resources left over.
Considering how powerful the Reapers are, and Shepard seems to be the only person in the galaxy who can kill them, how the hell did Earth hold out for so long? Should have been annihilated in like a week tops.
Tony Redgrave
Member
We know the Catalyst "lives in the Citadel" and that it is "a part of him", it might sound stupid but we don't really know if he has any control over it, evidence suggest it doesn't as unreasonable as it sounds.
Even if it could, if doesn't want to, there's a reason why it allows Shepard to use the Crucible. The cycle is weakening, the organic civilizations advance one step at a time to stop the Reapers, this time they secured the citadel, stopped a new Reaper to be built and unified against them, also they now possess a weapon potent enough to destroy the Reapers, his solution isn't going to work for long even if he wins this, the Crucible creates "new possibilities" and the A.I. let's Shepard decide their own future.
Destroying the Reapers will eliminate the cycle and let organics self-determine their future but with the possibility of being destroyed by a technological singularity.
Synthesis fuses organic and synthetic life to end the strife, but this ending is so futile I don't want to start thinking how wrong it actually is.
Control is arguably the best one, Shepard controls the Reapers, and, if a singularity threatens organic life he/she could presumably stop it using the Reapers.
They knew, but they disregarded it because it was pretty much impossible for the organics to secure the Citadel, the Prothean did the impossible there by changing the Keeper signal.
It takes longer to harvest than to just destroy. They were harvesting millions a day but it still was taking a while.
Apophenia Overload
Member
I think the Turians/Quarians starving thing just makes too much grim sense to happen. Sort of like the Endor Holocaust supposedly makes sense because of gravitational calculations and science. I don't think that would ever happen because they could just say that all of the races gathered around Earth find some way to synthesize dextro-edible food, hopefully without resorting to cannibalism in that process. Thematically, the famine would never appear because it's too coldly "realistic" to happen, and so would be written out with a technobabble plot contrivance.
I think the bigger problem about stranding a bunch of militaries around Earth is how pissed they're gonna be. The Quarians finally got their planet back. The Krogan finally got their mojo back. The Batarians were the first and some of the worst hit by the Reapers. The Turians and Asari faced the brunt of the attacks while the Salarians slid away. They are going to be angry as hell, and they might take it out on Earth. They'll have plenty of resentment towards the upstart monkeys who led them there to die, and even Shepard for stranding them. "Destroyed the Reapers at the cost of getting home? Some savior you are!" The extremely broken conditions will lead to basically something similar to FreeSpace 2 (prior to the Shivan incursion), except with more forces compacted into one solar system. Humanity is going to get raped by a bunch of angry aliens.
There's something grimly ironic about this situation.
I think the bigger problem about stranding a bunch of militaries around Earth is how pissed they're gonna be. The Quarians finally got their planet back. The Krogan finally got their mojo back. The Batarians were the first and some of the worst hit by the Reapers. The Turians and Asari faced the brunt of the attacks while the Salarians slid away. They are going to be angry as hell, and they might take it out on Earth. They'll have plenty of resentment towards the upstart monkeys who led them there to die, and even Shepard for stranding them. "Destroyed the Reapers at the cost of getting home? Some savior you are!" The extremely broken conditions will lead to basically something similar to FreeSpace 2 (prior to the Shivan incursion), except with more forces compacted into one solar system. Humanity is going to get raped by a bunch of angry aliens.
There's something grimly ironic about this situation.
They knew, but they disregarded it because it was pretty much impossible for the organics to secure the Citadel, the Prothean did the impossible there by changing the Keeper signal.[/QUOTE]
And when they magically got the citadel, they didnt turn off the relays because? And they cant just modify the citadel to not work with the crucible because? And someone managed to come up with the crucible despite the citadel always being immediately taken how?
The ending fucks over any Paragon Shepard. Which is absolutely insane since the entire game let's you play as space jesus.
Just give me an option to destroy the Reapers while sparing the Geth. Make that option only available to high paragon and high EMS character.
For me, that would have been enough to forgive the vent-kid space god.
Just give me an option to destroy the Reapers while sparing the Geth. Make that option only available to high paragon and high EMS character.
For me, that would have been enough to forgive the vent-kid space god.
That's the thing. It seems that most player who are satisfied with the ending are not asking any questions.
Which is kind of hilarious and somewhat sad.
Duebrithil
Member
I'd be really interested to hear/read what Drew had planned for the Reapers in ME3, but if it ends up being better than what we have... On the other hand, when the main villain in the first game assures you aren't capable of understanding them, you better have a damn good explanation or none at all.
Well, shit.
The Sythisis choice pretty much saves everyone, including Reapers, by bringing all life (AI and Organic) to the pinnacle of combined evolution. The only cost was loosing the Mass Relays which, honestly, could some day be rebuilt even if it's by a future species. That sounds Paragon to me.
UnluckyKate
Member
You forgot that the mass relay wiped out all organ-synthetics during their explosions
Yeah, because forcing the entire galaxy into an arbitrary choice sounds Paragon to me. There is no reason for the resulting life forms to be the "pinnacle" of evolution. And for fucks sake, do you know who tells you that it's the superior life form? THE REAPERS.
That ending is a god damn abomination. It's a bad piece of fiction and it makes no sense.
Joker and his electronic hat and the bloody electric trees.
Fuck that.
Why would the Reapers need a vanguard that gives away the potential surpise attack that is coming? Why would that vanguard need to clone Krogans or take over the Geth when the unstoppable Reaper forces are coming to crush and process everything anyway? How could the Protheans have tricked the Keepers into ignoring the Reaper signal, and the Reapers having indoctrinated the Protheans not know about it? Why was the best option to give the signal a direct frontal assualt on the Citadel? How is Cerberus able to reverse 2 year old brain death without any side effects? Why would the Collectors be processing humans to make a Human-Reaper, when the Reapers are already going to do that anyway (overachievers)? How is the Crucible something the Reapers, who are somehow able to nearly wipe all evidence of their 50,000 year destruction of every race, missed? How come if there was evidence of the Protheans having battled the Reapers on Mars that was known about no one ever showed it to the Council? Why did the Citadel need to be at Earth when it wasn't needed for processing any other planet they were destroying?
Because it's a video game and the overall plot is just to move the game along. The story is more about Shepard and the actions you choose throughout the game.
Typographenia
Member
I spent $80 on this thing, and I only got about $50 worth out of it. I'm making up the difference.
Tony Redgrave
Member
Probably because they actually wanted all fleets at earth were they knew they could win anyway.
Because they don't know how the Crucible works and modifying the citadel could possibly damage the catalyst? Not to speak of the time needed.
The Crucible was conceived as a super-weapon that would generate enough energy to defeat the Reapers, the problem is that they didn't have any idea how to target it towards the Reapers without destroying everything including the ones using it, eventually they discovered the Mass Relays could do it, and the Relays are linked to the Citadel, we also know that some race before the Protheans knew that the Catalyst was the citadel but probably didn't knew there was an A.I. in there.
Basically "The Catalyst" you're searching through the game is the Citadel, as in, the station itself, to be able to target the Reapers through the Relays, the fact that there's an A.I. in the is unknown to all.
No they didnt, if they did, what was the point of combining synthetics and organics? You even saw your crew coming out alive of the Normandy after the Relays exploded.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Well, it would be a lot smarter if instead of leaving a single Reaper to activate the Citadel, the Catalyst activates the Citadel itself.
They've could've found the Crucible and destroyed the plans. When TIM told them about it, the Reapers could've turned off the relay network. Without it, the Crucible would be useless. Then they would have all the time in the galaxy to find the Crucible and destroy it and the plans. That way, they get a couple more hundred million years to solve their non-problem.
It's just easily seen inconsistencies. A brain dead hamster could see through these gaping plot holes.
You realize some of those questions actually have logical answers and Mass effect used to take great pains in explaining things. And some of those things had good explanations until retcons changed things.
I learned earlier today that there are people who actually think that all endings wipe out everyone in the galaxy. Their reasoning: space magic from the crucible traveled to each corner of the galaxy blowing up any solar system with a relay. All endings!
heliosRAzi
Banned
In no way does that make any sense. In all of the other cycles, the Reapers shut off the relay network to keep the galaxy from massing in such numbers.
There is precedence for that. We don't say it wipes out all life, but every planet in a system that has a relay would be destroyed according to the codex and Arrival.
Because we're supposed to accept that a story driven game is doomed to have a shit plot? That's depressing. I can't accept that, not when a game leans so heavily on its narrative to deliver entertainment.
In no way does that make any sense. In all of the other cycles, the Reapers shut off the relay network to keep the galaxy from massing in such numbers.
They just felt like giving them a sporting chance. You get the first punch. Sounds like machine death god logic to me.
heliosRAzi
Banned
You're right. It makes perfect sense given the Catalyst
CharmingCharlie
Member
Yeah strange people should think that when it was shown in Arrival isn't it. The space magic clearly destroys the relays and as it has been shown in Arrival when the relays are destroyed it releases a blast wave that destroys the solar system that relay is in. Absolutely stupid that people should come to the conclusion that all Galactic life is wiped out based on shit they were told in the game aint it. Oh wait no it was SPACE MAGIC that did it all so nothing from the lore applies to it.
Tony Redgrave
Member
Indeed, this is most likely the result of a poor thought-out retcon. But the point stand that we don't know whether the catalyst can control the Citadel or not.
True, i would argue that maybe the Catalyst might want the crucible to connect in order to "create new possibilities" but, because it is impossible for him to know what it would actually do the point is moot. Unless the catalyst wanted his solution gone, this is a flagrant case of plot induced stupidity in the Reapers.
Whether or not he can is irrelevant in the face of the question why cant he? If he cant, its stupid. If he can, it makes ME1 look stupid.
Tony Redgrave
Member
You DO understand that it is made pretty clear through the game that there's no way to beat the Reapers head on right? Like, zero. The Reapers shut down the Relays for commodity not because they're afraid, in fact all fleets in the Sol system are like fish in a barrel to them, the whole point of the fleet was to buy time to deploy the Crucible, and it changed little when they brought the Citadel to Sol, the only change is that Shepard and co. had to use the Conduit to open it's arms. It was never a head on attack.
In no way does that make any sense. In all of the other cycles, the Reapers shut off the relay network to keep the galaxy from massing in such numbers.
Stop making it worse damnit.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Dumb if you do, dumb if you don't.
All so they could have this dumbass twist at the end.
Are you replying to the right thing?
Anyway, throughout ME2, the Omega-4 relay mission was impossible and I managed to bring every back alive. It has been stated that uniting all of the races in the galaxy was impossible, but I managed to do it. That is what Shepard does: he kicks reason to the curb and does the impossible.
The Reapers shut off the relays to make harvesting more efficient and keeps the races in disarray. It's also why Javik didn't know about the Crucible or why Vigil didn't know about the Crucible either.
yes it is stupid
Heroic ending music, horrible suspension of disbelief breaking space magic, safe synthesis or high ems control/destroy. It's poorly thought out, but it's meant to show the magic spreading throughout the galaxy. Not destroying all the solar systems and spreading into nothing. It's not a tragic ending by any means and it's not directed as such.
There were a ton of systems that had life, civilizations and such that had no Mass Relay. I know because I visited them, minded Eezo and collected War Assets there. And those were only the ones in the game we were allowed to visit. There is life throughout the galaxy, not just within the systems containing a Mass Relay. Joker even landed on one.
WiiredShawn
Member
As a fellow gamer, and with the utmost politeness I can muster: no. Just no.
In a game that stresses at every possible opportunity the importance of self-determinism and creating unity from diversity, Synthesis is a complete and utter backpeddle: forcing organic and synthetic life into a mandated hegemony that raises a bewildering number of hypothetical and practical issues is not a "good" ending. It's not even Paragon, if we believe that Paragon decisions are those that agree with the themes of fostering self-determination and diversity. No one had a choice of whether they wanted the fusion; Shepard simply makes a choice and everyone else has to live with it.
And those relays are not being rebuilt, without breaking the logic of the universe (admittedly, something the lead writer has no problem doing). The Reapers supposedly built the relays, and according to Sovereign, we cannot comprehend their minds or technology. This is re-emphasized multiple times, in which characters admit that they don't have a good grasp on Sovereign's tech, and know basically nothing about how the relays actually function. The Reapers were the only ones capable of developing that technology across countless generations, so the likelihood that some species is just going "figure it out" is not at all likely - especially if the relays can no longer be studied as a result of SPACE MAGIC explosions.
The satisfaction with the ending is negatively correlated with how deeply you contemplate its ramifications.
Zomba13
Member
All those cycles before also had the Relay network shut down so there was never a united galaxy. Everyone was separated in their own system and only had the troops and ships that were already in the system. This is the first cycle that the relays were still online thanks to the Protheans messing with the Keepers and blocking the Reaper signal (which doesn't make much sense if the main reaper controller was in the citadel all along and the keepers only took commands from the citadel after the Prothean interference).
No, just that a space opera will not have the most logical storyline. Star Trek and Star Wars certainly would not live up to the scrutiny that people are placing on the end of Mass Effect, and people seemed perfectly fine with plot devices that never really made much sense before within the series.
A lot of sci-fi has overall plots that exist just to give a framework for interesting ideas within them. Mass Effect to me was The Hero's Journey with plot devices to keep it moving forward while exploring a lot of interesting ideas in between. I enjoyed the resolution to those ideas and thought the way it allowed the player to interact with the outcomes was great. The overall plot doesn't stand up to scrutiny anymore than The Foundation Series by Asminov does, a series which is considered by many to be one of the best pieces of science fiction.