Watching a Geass.
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Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow
- Thread starter Patryn
- Start date
Watching a Geass.
Probably the most clear argument for the indoctrination theory I've seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
Morbid curiosity.
My question for those who refuse to believe the indoctrination theory. I don't get why it seems so far fetched. You've seen the videos showing proof that it's a very valid opinion and Shepard is shown surviving something. He couldn't have survived the Citadel Explosion in space, or jumping into the beam for Synthesis, Being Electrocuted for control nor getting caught in the blast for Destroy. So how else could he survive?
I'm not saying it's the only possibility but it seems you guys don't want the ending to be something other than the shitty half assed put together last minute ending that we got.
I'm not saying it's the only possibility but it seems you guys don't want the ending to be something other than the shitty half assed put together last minute ending that we got.
I really wish Bioware would shut down the indoc theory right now. It's just getting silly.
My position is this. You are giving too much credit to Bioware writers and the current planning they had. I've had a limited amount of experience in the industry but what I can say is that every single project I've worked on ran out of time. Running out of time means compromises and cuts. An indoctrination ending is too ambitious, too complicated and way too risky for a studio like Bioware.
Shepard breathing is a nugget. A small bone that the writers have thrown at you since you had over 5k Effective War Assets. Don't read anything into it. They are not committed to the idea and will not iterate on it. Shepard story is over and the fact that he's alive is irrelevant.
And then, why was this never mentioned in the leaked script? We had everything. Most of the endings, all the major plot points. And everything checks out. Why was the indoctrination never mentioned? It just makes no practical sense.
The Big Rig
Member
I just finished the game, and I think I get all the hate. Yes, it does leave a lot of questions unanswered. But, I think I'm ok with that.
I can completely understand how someone who invests themselves in the fiction can feel outraged. If someone read the novels, and read all those codex entries, I think they would feel like Bioware would explain how things ended better. I thought the ending was a little lackluster (I've watched all the good endings), but I don't think it necessarily needed to be changed. Its a choice Bioware made, and I think they did it purposefully. Maybe I'm not a huge fan of holding stuff back, but I respect their choice to do so.
Now, if its all explained via DLC, fuck those guys.
I can completely understand how someone who invests themselves in the fiction can feel outraged. If someone read the novels, and read all those codex entries, I think they would feel like Bioware would explain how things ended better. I thought the ending was a little lackluster (I've watched all the good endings), but I don't think it necessarily needed to be changed. Its a choice Bioware made, and I think they did it purposefully. Maybe I'm not a huge fan of holding stuff back, but I respect their choice to do so.
Now, if its all explained via DLC, fuck those guys.
Sigh... why?
WrenchNinja
Member
I don't believe Bioware is capable of that kind of subtlety.
Plus it makes them look even worse for giving a non-ending. I don't think Bioware is that scummy.
It's a steadfast refusal to indulge in fanfiction. :<
It's fairly obvious the indoctrination theory was the intent and they wanted be people to discover it for themselves.
I have no faith in them either but come on I refuse to believe they went through all of that, give all these subtle hints, like the headaches, like the black lines on the screen and whatever else was shown in those Indoctrination videos to be like -
FUCK IT YALL, IT'S SPACE MAGIC HERP DERP DERP.
I think Shep could have been faced with indoctrination along the game, but I don't think the events after Harby's beam are false. Also, what's so hard about accepting those moments than resorting to a theory?
It's not about Shep living, either. If the story lead him to sacrifice himself, then that's where it goes. Why did BW decid to throw a twist with the destroy option? They obviously couldn't commit to Shepard's death in all cases.
Some of us just accept things for what they are up front.
Yet it's nowhere in the notes, or the plans, and it's not ever mentioned during the game that Shep could be indoctrinated. It's all fan speculation because of the stupid beam.
Why can't you accept that? Space magic was even mentioned by Mac Walters.
I can believe that. This whole indoctrination thing is like a failing student handing in a A+ term paper at the end of the semester. Is it possible? Sure but it's pretty fucking unlikely.
Occam's Razor.
A) The writers of Bioware were able to pen the narrative and predict the reaction of fans with unsettling prescience. From this, they were able to weave an intricate narrative throughout three games that resulted in the so-called "Indoctrination Theory." The writers were so confident and capable and talented that they allowed 5 years and hundreds of hours of build-up to come to fruition in an amazingly subtle way: if one were to perceive the God-Child ending as the finale, one would be wrong. It would take further analysis of the script to figure out the true ending, a task they saw fit for gamers. Fan reaction aside, Bioware allowed the community to figure out the true ending, without wanting to quell the bad press themselves. Not to mention ignoring how Indoctrination Theory devalues the entire philosophy the series was built on. Ultimately, every decision you made means nothing because you become indoctrinated. And so on, and so on, and so on. But in the end, the writers felt as though our current ending was the most appropriate.
B) Video game writers, especially the ones at Bioware, are terrible at what they do.
You tell me.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I think he's getting post-modern mixed up with Dadaism, and I don't think he knows what either means.
it's not ever mentioned during the game that Shep could be indoctrinated. It's all fan speculation because of the stupid beam.
Well, the indoctrination storyline has been implied with Arrival. Plus, all the dreams you have throughout ME3, and how you go all "dark side" on Thessia.
I think Shep could have been faced with indoctrination along the game, but I don't think the events after Harby's beam are false. Also, what's so hard about accepting those moments than resorting to a theory?
It's not about Shep living, either. If the story lead him to sacrifice himself, then that's where it goes. Why did BW decided to throw a twist with the destroy option? They obviously couldn't commit to Shepard's death in all cases.
Some of us just accept things for what they are up front.
Yet it's nowhere in the notes, or the plans, and it's not ever mentioned during the game that Shep could be indoctrinated. It's all fan speculation because of the stupid beam.
I hear ya, maybe I'm just hoping for something better.
Crossing my fingers for this April announcement in that it'll be something good. Not more missions for War Assets.
D
Deleted member 81567
Unconfirmed Member
I hope this ending DLC isn't the same bullshit, with a different flavor. Go with the indoc theory Bioware. It's the only way to get it right and end this shitstorm. Even though it's not the best way to end it, the way things are now, yeah...
The dreams, while visually impressive and kind of cool, are a storytelling device to make you care about the kid. It fails to do so in every way but they should be labeled as such.
I still can't believe that someone approved of the kid idea. Seriously, didn't anyone cringe during a meeting? How could anyone just say: "Hey guys, it's kind of dumb and really cheap to elicit an emotional response by killing a white kid. We can do better than that." It's gratuitous, unambitious and not effective.
I still can't believe that someone approved of the kid idea. Seriously, didn't anyone cringe during a meeting? How could anyone just say: "Hey guys, it's kind of dumb and really cheap to elicit an emotional response by killing a white kid. We can do better than that." It's gratuitous, unambitious and not effective.
You know maybe it'll be like Blade Runner where 25 years or whatever the director admitted that Harrison Ford was a replicant.
So in 2037 Ray Mazuka II / III will finally come clean that even after all that time they still don't know what the fuck they were thinking
WHERE'S MY HARBINGER SHOWDOWN1?@!?@
The indoctrination storyline goes nowhere though. Just like most of ME2. What does that dark side thing mean? I haven't watched SW besides the first movie.
I found them funny and laughed a few times during them. Honestly, the way the kid runs is hilarious.
It will be the "OK LET'S SPELL THIS OUT FOR YOU" dlc
They should have the next DLC be Shepherd walking out of the Normandy after Joker and crew and doing missions on the planet. As well as contemplating his decision on the crucible. Then he wakes up.
The one where Shepard and the kid hug and then start burning was hilarious. And yeah, his running animation was strange.
In fact, I think Bioware is pretty bad at animating living beings.
Uh...how did you come up with that one?
K watched this 2nd Indoc video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
If your overall EMS is 1700 or less then the only choice you is the bad version of the Destroy ending? Has that been verified?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
If your overall EMS is 1700 or less then the only choice you is the bad version of the Destroy ending? Has that been verified?
BioWare wasn't intentionally providing subtle hints. There's no evidence that they were providing subtle hints. The only way of even believing this is if you start with the conclusion that the Indoctrination Theory was correct, and then begin the Great Hunt for Evidence.
That's ass backwards logic.
More or less yes. Destroy ending is the easiest to get if you blew up the collectors base while Control is easier to get if you gave it to the Illusive man. If your EMS is really low you can end up with only one choice and in the destruction ending the blast from the crucible torches the earth if your EMS is low.
I really don't think they will go with the dream route. It's even more embarassing than the ending they had in the first place. It means that there's no ending at all in the basic retail game.
Whenever that kid was on screen, all I could think of was Heavy Rain. I burst out laughing at the first dream sequence, because a dream sequence of chasing the ghost of a child you let die through a misty forest filled with shadows of living people was enough to make me wonder if Quantic Dream was consulting.
What are you even talking about.
Well duh. They're gamers.
In my ending Garrus walks out of the ship after they crashed landed. He was on my squad before the Harbinger beam does't make any sense he's on the ship.
I LET HIM WIN THE BOTTLE SKEET SHOOT, HE COULDN'T HAVE DITCHED ME..... right??
Your actions do not affect the ultimate fate of the Reapers and the universe because you become indoctrinated before reaching the beam. This means the Crucible is never activated in the correct manner. This means your intervention and effect is relatively limited. So, yes, some decisions come to fruition during the game, but they don't "pay-off" in one encompassing finale. Aside from incredibly minor differences a decision may make, each decision -- in theory -- is supposed to have two layers of significance: the immediate effect and satisfaction of said decision, and how that decision makes a difference in the end.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
In my ending Garrus walks out of the ship after they crashed landed. He was on my squad before the Harbinger beam does't make any sense he's on the ship.
I LET HIM WIN THE BOTTLE SKEET SHOOT, HE COULDN'T HAVE DITCHED ME..... right??
If you turn around during the run to the Crucible, you'll notice your team never follows you. They just stand at the top of the hill.
Forever alone.
I'm sure you've read about it since it was posted a few times. Originally, or somewhere in the plot, Joker was supposed to swoop in and save the day. How or why is now uncertain. You can find audio files of his rescue; they're pretty short clips.In my ending Garrus walks out of the ship after they crashed landed. He was on my squad before the Harbinger beam does't make any sense he's on the ship.
I LET HIM WIN THE BOTTLE SKEET SHOOT, HE COULDN'T HAVE DITCHED ME..... right??
If you turn around during the run to the Crucible, you'll notice your team never follows you. They just stand at the top of the hill.
Forever alone.
:lol thats brutal. Also if you wait too long to choose a colour at the end you die.
But admit it, even Heavy Rain has more coherent endings than this. And at least many of Heavy Rain's endings clearly show different permutations and branching paths.
This video is very well made. The fact remains that evidence supporting indoctrination theory is enormous, but those who don't support it don't actually have any counter arguement as to why they do not.
Their argument is always "Bioware not that smart!"
Hell, they were smart enough to put blatant clues of indoctrination throughout the entire game, so I don't see why not.
All we can do is hope my friend. Hope that the DLC aren't some extra missions on Omega where you play as Aria so that fucker from the blue suns will never see her tits again lol.
I got to admit there was some funny ass shit in this game. Anybody go to the Purgatory bar and start dancing with the chick that's basically fucking the wall?
So good lol.
It's not hard to understand.
To claim that the purported "evidence" of this fanfic theory is so many subtle hints is to assume that BioWare intended for these various bits and pieces of dialogue and scenery etc., scattered throughout the game, to actually be hints that Shepard was indoctrinated.
There's no evidence BioWare placed any "evidence" in the game with the intent to lead the player into believing Shepard was indoctrinated. None.
It's up to the individual to make the assumption that BioWare intended all of this shit.
That assumption usually comes after someone has already decided that the Indoctrination Theory is valid and quite likely the true meaning.
Thus, people are working backwards here. They're starting with their conclusion and combing the game for anything that can be interpreted to support the conclusion. The only reason these bits and pieces are interpreted in that way is the person is viewing them with the formed idea that they could support Shepard being indoctrinated. You've already made up your mind, and you're conforming what you see to fit what you believe.
tl;dr = confirmation bias errwhere
I love it when Garrus made a snide comment about how he knows Shepard can't dance. Jack does the same thing too, I think.
Give me a good reason why indoctrination was not in the leaked script.
In the Geth memory database mainframe thing (something out of Tron... or Reboot), all the Quarians had masks. Shepard asks why they did if it happened 300 years ago. Legion responds "well how many Quarians have you seen without a mask?"
My Shepard banged Tali in ME2, so I thought "I'VE SEEN ONE!"
Then Shepard responds... "well... I've seen at least one..."
Awesome.
How can something be simultaneously subtle yet blatant?
Not going over this again. Bioware already said they intended Shepard to be indoctrinated and lose control of his body originally, but it was too difficult to pull off.
This is proof enough that they were running with it.
Jake Tower
Banned
In the Final Hours of ME3, BioWare talks about designing the ending and how one of the first ideas was indoctrination. They didn't use it because it was too hard designing it at the very end where Shepard wouldn't be in control. I have a feeling that this was to be the original ending and that the evidence for indoctrination in the game is left over from this original idea.
You know, the awesomeness of character interaction dialogues vs. the stupidity of the overall plot convinced me that there were 2 groups of writers for ME3. One group handled the minor dialogues and character interactions. These groups knew what they're doing. They're the ones who produced Liara's time capsule sequence, the character interaction moments, and just basically the consistency of characters interaction.
The other group, which I assume to be the head writers, handled the main plot. And for some reason, they just didn't bother to incorporate the good stuff that the other group had done. For example, Liara's time capsule would have made for a touching ending if it's discovered by someone. But was it even there? NOOOO. To top it off, this main plot group doesn't seem to know what makes the game great as a whole and just assumed that out-of-nowhere ending is the best way to end this series.
The biggest piece of evidence (Shepard's survival) comes from the current ending though.