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[DTKT]

Not going over this again. Bioware already said they intended Shepard to be indoctrinated and lose control of his body originally, but it was too difficult to pull off.

This is proof enough that they were running with it.

Didn't you just answer your own theory. It was too hard. :|

 

[hateradio]

Not going over this again. Bioware already said they intended Shepard to be indoctrinated and lose control of his body originally, but it was too difficult to pull off.

This is proof enough that they were running with it.

So because they thought to do that originally, and scrapped it, it's proof that it's what they're going for?

 

[hao chi]

You know, the awesomeness of character interaction dialogues vs. the stupidity of the overall plot convinced me that there are 2 groups of writers for ME3. One group handles the minor dialogues and character interactions. These groups know what they're doing. They're the ones who produced Liara's time capsule sequence, the character interaction moments, and just basically the consistency of characters interaction.

The other group, which I assume to be the head writers, handle the main plot. And for some reason, they just don't bother to incorporate the good stuff that the other group has done. For example, Liara's time capsule would have made for a touching ending if it's discovered by someone. But was it even there? NOOOO. To top it off, this main plot group doesn't seem to know what makes the game great as a whole and just assumed that out-of-nowhere ending is the best way to end this series.

Seriously. If Shepard did a crap job of preparing for the war, then the Reapers should have won, and after the credits we should have been shown a clip of a future race finding Liara's time capsule.

Would have been much better than the shit ending we got.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Why are people so hellbent on defending a theory that would make Bioware look like the most dickish developer in a long time? Them admitting the Indoc Theory was planned means they released the third part of a trilogy with no real ending, and are instead saving that for DLC. Why would you want to defend this? That's not clever, that's being a jerk. On those grounds alone I reject the Indoc Theroy. Sounds like the work of Reapers.

Bioware's just a bunch of Reaper jerks. They're all indoctrinated and attempting to wipe out organic minds with their synthetic game.

 

[MisterNugNug]

This video is very well made. The fact remains that evidence supporting indoctrination theory is enormous, but those who don't support it don't actually have any counter arguement as to why they do not.

Their argument is always "Bioware not that smart!"

Hell, they were smart enough to put blatant clues of indoctrination throughout the entire game, so I don't see why not.

Why didn't the Reapers just kill Shepard?

 

[HadesGigas]

Seriously. If Shepard did a crap job of preparing for the war, then the Reapers should have won, and after the credits we should have been shown a clip of a future race finding Liara's time capsule.

Would have been much better than the shit ending we got.

They were hinting that the Yahg would rule the next cycle, so that'd be kinda weird to see.

 

[Jake Tower]

So because they thought to do that originally, and scrapped it, it's proof that it's what they're going for?

No, but just like the dark matter sub-plot of ME2, its presence was left in the game even though it wasn't used. So there is actual evidence in the game for indoctrination, albeit misleading evidence.

 

[Cagey]

This video is very well made. The fact remains that evidence supporting indoctrination theory is enormous, but those who don't support it don't actually have any counter arguement as to why they do not.

Their argument is always "Bioware not that smart!"

Hell, they were smart enough to put blatant clues of indoctrination throughout the entire game, so I don't see why not.

Ugh. Unless intended, they weren't clues.

YOU are deciding that they're clues. Given what we know about the development process for this game, there's no evidence suggesting they were intended as clues. There's a lot of evidence suggesting they weren't.

Not going over this again. Bioware already said they intended Shepard to be indoctrinated and lose control of his body originally, but it was too difficult to pull off.

This is proof enough that they were running with it.

No. It's proof they contemplated the above idea and abandoned the above idea. It's not proof they were "running with it".

In the Final Hours of ME3, BioWare talks about designing the ending and how one of the first ideas was indoctrination. They didn't use it because it was too hard designing it at the very end where Shepard wouldn't be in control. I have a feeling that this was to be the original ending and that the evidence for indoctrination in the game is left over from this original idea.

This can work because it can be construed to prove some intent on BioWare's behalf that the various bits and pieces were intentionally placed there as hints for indoctrination.

Although, "we had this idea, we scrapped it for Rainbow Starchild, but we didn't fully remove the groundwork we laid for our first plan" strongly suggests that reading this Indoctrination Theory into the final version of ME3 is erroneous.

Why are people so hellbent on defending a theory that would make Bioware look like the most dickish developer in a long time? Them admitting the Indoc Theory was planned means they released the third part of a trilogy with no ending, and are instead saving that for DLC. Why would you want to defend this? That's not clever, that's being a jerk. On those grounds alone I reject the Indoc Theroy. Sounds like the work of Reapers.

Bioware's just a bunch of Reaper jerks. They're all indoctrinated and attempting to wipe out organic minds with their synthetic game.

They'd rather believe Mass Effect 3's ending was a brilliant masterstroke of genius than accept the shit that they were given. I'm much too cynical for that, but the underlying thread that binds us together is that we all acknowledge we were given shit.

 

[Jake Tower]

Why didn't the Reapers just kill Shepard?

Why do the Reapers indoctrinate anyone? Why don't they just kill everyone since that is their true goal?

 

[hao chi]

Why are people so hellbent on defending a theory that would make Bioware look like the most dickish developer in a long time? Them admitting the Indoc Theory was planned means they released the third part of a trilogy with no ending, and are instead saving that for DLC. Why would you want to defend this? That's not clever, that's being a jerk. On those grounds alone I reject the Indoc Theroy. Sounds like the work of Reapers.

Bioware's just a bunch of Reaper jerks. They're all indoctrinated and attempting to wipe out organic minds with their synthetic game.

I think the indoctrination theory is most likely because of the evidence behind it, and it just makes a ton of sense.

However, that doesn't make the ending any better in my opinion; maybe even worse since Shepard has still done nothing to stop the Reapers if it turns out to be true.

I'm also going to be pissed if any epilogue DLC is like 30-60 minutes long and feels like it was sliced out at the last second to get an extra $10 per customer.

So the indoctrination theory isn't really an improvement for me, but just seems most likely.

 

[HK-47]

The Harbinger, Star Child and Elcor PR twitters are cracking me up.

 

[dankir]

Why do the Reapers indoctrinate anyone? Why don't they just kill everyone since that is their true goal?

Sound like something Marauder Shields would say!

 

[Tookay]

This video is very well made. The fact remains that evidence supporting indoctrination theory is enormous, but those who don't support it don't actually have any counter arguement as to why they do not.

Their argument is always "Bioware not that smart!"

Hell, they were smart enough to put blatant clues of indoctrination throughout the entire game, so I don't see why not.

Hahahahahahahaha.

This thread is hilarious. Only a conclusion this crappy could have produced a reaction so insane. One where people literally grasp at straws by looking at ground textures to justify their theory that Bioware masterminded a misunderstood non-ending. One where people ignore the context of the game (which never asked you to do anything more than take it at face value) and the context of its development (that Bioware scrapped the Indoc idea ages ago, that there's nothing in the script leaks that commented on this, anything). One where people would rather twist their brains into a pretzel with the help of confirmation bias than just deal with the simple possibility that Bioware fucked up.

Thank you Bioware, for bringing out this lunacy, this desperation.

 

[hao chi]

They were hinting that the Yahg would rule the next cycle, so that'd be kinda weird to see.

I'm assuming there will be other alien races that have developed space travel by then.

 

[Dr.Acula]

My question for those who refuse to believe the indoctrination theory. I don't get why it seems so far fetched. You've seen the videos showing proof that it's a very valid opinion and Shepard is shown surviving something. He couldn't have survived the Citadel Explosion in space, or jumping into the beam for Synthesis, Being Electrocuted for control nor getting caught in the blast for Destroy. So how else could he survive?

I'm not saying it's the only possibility but it seems you guys don't want the ending to be something other than the shitty half assed put together last minute ending that we got.

The indoctrination theory states that Shep is knocked out by Harbinger, has a mental trip, then awakens in the rubble of London. The end. He never makes it to the crucible, there's no knowing if the Reapers win or lose. The game ends in the moments before the resolution. Good on Shep's personal battle with defeating indoctrination, but um... epic giant space battle happening above Earth! Could we address that?

 

[HK-47]

I'm assuming there will be other alien races that have developed space travel by then.

Yahg were the closest and they are both ruthless and extremely clever.

 

[Deleted member 81567]

Shepard equivalent for Yahgs? Mass Effect 4 confirmed.

 

[hateradio]

Why do the Reapers indoctrinate anyone? Why don't they just kill everyone since that is their true goal?

They indoctrinate to get spies/cells.

No, but just like the dark matter sub-plot of ME2, its presence was left in the game even though it wasn't used. So there is actual evidence in the game for indoctrination, albeit misleading evidence.

But the fact that it's canned makes it non canonical. Dark Energy was present before ME3, but there's no trace of it within. They may have intended on some indoctrination during the game, but it's ultimately not proof enough for me to think that Shep was indoctrinated in the end.

 

[HadesGigas]

I'm assuming there will be other alien races that have developed space travel by then.

But they Yahg are almost there already. And they are fucking huge, aggressive, and brilliant. They'd be like the protheans on steroids. Or like krogans with brains.

 

[Dresden]

But they Yahg are almost there already. And they are fucking huge, aggressive, and brilliant. They'd be like the protheans on steroids. Or like krogans with brains.

Krogans have brains, they would've taken over the galaxy before getting genophage'd.

 

[Jake Tower]

This can work because it can be construed to prove some intent on BioWare's behalf that the various bits and pieces were intentionally placed there as hints for indoctrination.

Although, "we had this idea, we scrapped it for Rainbow Starchild, but we didn't fully remove the groundwork we laid for our first plan" strongly suggests that reading this Indoctrination Theory into the final version of ME3 is erroneous.

Exactly. The evidence that points to indoctrination may be erroneous, but it isn't just 'wishful thinking' to see it in the game.

Again, at this point I believe the ending we got was the final intended ending, but the remains of other plot points are still in the game, including indoctrination and Illusive Man Reaper Boss Fight. So when people point out the evidence for indoctrination, it isn't just coming from desperation, it's coming from left over plot BioWare didn't end up using.

 

[HadesGigas]

Krogans have brains, they would've taken over the galaxy before getting genophage'd.

If the Krogans developed without interference, maybe. But the Salarians interfering caused them to go nuts with technology before they were ready to handle it.

Yahg had minimal interference, they are just about at their spacefaring stage.

Krogan vs. Yahg probably would have been what the next cycle would have been if the Krogans weren't rushed forward. (and if a magic space child didn't tell Shepard to destroy all the mass relays)

 

[Sojgat]

So let me get this straight not only have Bioware made an ending that I would probably rate as one of the worst of all time but they accidentally made it fit perfectly with an idea that they scrapped because it was too hard to pull off.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Exactly. The evidence that points to indoctrination may be erroneous, but it isn't just 'wishful thinking' to see it in the game.

Again, at this point I believe the ending we got was the final intended ending, but the remains of other plot points are still in the game, including indoctrination and Illusive Man Reaper Boss Fight. So when people point out the evidence for indoctrination, it isn't just coming from desperation, it's coming from left over plot BioWare didn't end up using.

lol, so there's some writer at Bioware going around the office saying, "Hey Casey, check out how awesome the Internet thought my ending was." Man, I really hope that's true

 

[Cagey]

Exactly. The evidence that points to indoctrination may be erroneous, but it isn't just 'wishful thinking' to see it in the game.

Again, at this point I believe the ending we got was the final intended ending, but the remains of other plot points are still in the game, including indoctrination and Illusive Man Reaper Boss Fight. So when people point out the evidence for indoctrination, it isn't just coming from desperation, it's coming from left over plot BioWare didn't end up using.

I'm not saying I believe it, but at least it's a stronger argument than saying "ALL THE EVIDENCE BRAH, IT'S OBVIOUS!"

 

[hao chi]

But they Yahg are almost there already. And they are fucking huge, aggressive, and brilliant. They'd be like the protheans on steroids. Or like krogans with brains.

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be the ones to find the time capsule. In this cycle it was the humans that uncovered the Reaper threat (or Saren, if you want to get technical), not the Asari, who are the most advanced race.

 

[Jake Tower]

They indoctrinate to get spies/cells.

So who better to indoctrinate than Space Jesus? Everyone trusts him.

But the fact that it's canned makes it non canonical. Dark Energy was present before ME3, but there's no trace of it within. They may have intended on some indoctrination during the game, but it's ultimately not proof enough for me to think that Shep was indoctrinated in the end.

I'm not commenting on whether it is canon. Just that the evidence present in the game is real and not just wishful thinking from the desperate.

 

[Tookay]

Exactly. The evidence that points to indoctrination may be erroneous, but it isn't just 'wishful thinking' to see it in the game.

Again, at this point I believe the ending we got was the final intended ending, but the remains of other plot points are still in the game, including indoctrination and Illusive Man Reaper Boss Fight. So when people point out the evidence for indoctrination, it isn't just coming from desperation, it's coming from left over plot BioWare didn't end up using.

When I construct a building made of lumber, but then switch to stone after realizing wood would not be viable very early on, I don't go and see the wood framework afterwards and call it a log cabin.

It isn't desperation; fine. But it's a little irrational nonetheless.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

So let me get this straight not only have Bioware made an ending that I would probably rate as one of the worst of all time but they accidentally made it fit perfectly with an idea that they scrapped because it was too hard to pull off.

Yup. Either some of the worst writing/planning in history or this was planned all along.

 

[HadesGigas]

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be the ones to find the time capsule. In this cycle it was the humans that uncovered the Reaper threat (or Saren, if you want to get technical), not the Asari, who are the most advanced race.

I guess since there'd be a lot of them everywhere anyone could find them, yeah. And with the relays destroyed they'd be found by different species who have no way of telling the other species. Yahg would still most likely be the first to find them, though.

 

[hateradio]

So let me get this straight not only have Bioware made an ending that I would probably rate as one of the worst of all time but they accidentally made it fit perfectly with an idea that they scrapped because it was too hard to pull off.

Indoctrination theory confirmed through BW's own ineptitude? Fuck.

So who better to indoctrinate than Space Jesus? Everyone trusts him.

I'm not commenting on whether it is canon. Just that the evidence present in the game is real and not just wishful thinking from the desperate.

By the virtue of Space Jesus, s/he could never be indoctrinated. Don't you understand?

The desperate must accept Space Jesus' purity and accept it for all it is.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

Indoctrination theory confirmed through BW's own ineptitude? Fuck.

I think I said this earlier (may have been yelling at a pillow in rage) but Bioware would just be foolish not to run with the idea now. It fits so perfectly with everything from the ending they could so easily make it look like this was all planned but they wanted to give their "loyal fans" time to see if they could decipher the ending.

 

[Dresden]

Making it fit requires them to do more work than I think they're willing to do.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

Making it fit requires them to do more work than I think they're willing to do.

The fans did all the work already. All Bioware has to do now is script it, get Mark Meer to do his lines while in the bathroom and viola - ENDINGS FOR EVERYONE!

 

[Omega]

One of the reasons I would like to believe in the indoctrination theory is because it explains the stupid vent kid shoved in our face.

Shepard has to choose between Kaiden/Ash to die. He doesn't have nightmares about that. But he has nightmares about some 4 year old he saw for no more than 2 minutes?

I don't know about you guys, but if someone I know died and it was because I chose to let them die, that would bother me more than some child I didn't even know dying. That's probably just me hating how developers shove this unimportant people in our face though. Thane dying made me sad. Mordin dying almost brought a tear to my eye. Vent kid? I actually laughed when the Reaper destroyed both their ships. I don't care that he died. Maybe if he ran to the shuttle a little sooner instead of staring at me like an idiot he would have lived.

Plus, where the hell is this kids parents. He's on top of a building playing with a normandy and then hiding in vents. Doesn't he have friends or a family to take care of him?

 

[Cagey]

I think I said this earlier (may have been yelling at a pillow in rage) but Bioware would just be foolish not to run with the idea now. It fits so perfectly with everything from the ending they could so easily make it look like this was all planned but they wanted to give their "loyal fans" time to see if they could decipher the ending.

I can't wait until BioWare retcons the game to use indoctrination as a convenient out, claim it was their intention all along, and in the process I get retconned into being an ignorant fool who "just couldn't figure out their brilliance from the get-go".

Gon' be awesome.

 

[Dresden]

The fans did all the work already. All Bioware has to do now is script it, get Mark Meer to do his lines while in the bathroom and viola - ENDINGS FOR EVERYONE!

Nah . . . the appeal of the theory is that the last set of scenes don't actually happen.

So Shepard wakes up in the rubble. Now, you need to--at the very least--have enough voicework and cutscenes done to craft another ending. More if you add in playable sequences. Also add in voicework for every other possible character that could be present at the location. A part of the contempt for the ending stemmed from the lack of conclusions for the characters. So now you have to do those as well.

 

[hateradio]

One of the reasons I would like to believe in the indoctrination theory is because it explains the stupid vent kid shoved in our face.

The kid was purposefully chosen to pull at your heart strings. That's the true reason it was shoved in your face. Obviously the concept failed miserably, because using such a cheap device can't work when Shep has experienced worse loses.

 

[Tookay]

The fans did all the work already. All Bioware has to do now is script it, get Mark Meer to do his lines while in the bathroom and viola - ENDINGS FOR EVERYONE!

What about all the mocapping? The other characters' VA? The encounter design, assuming there are enemies left to fight? The planning/scripting of triggers and cutscenes? It isn't as easy to "tack on" an ending as you think.

Dresden's right; they're going to do the minimum amount of work.

EDIT: Damn, he even stole the words from my mouth.

 

[HK-47]

The kid was purposefully chosen to pull at your heart strings. That's the true reason it was shoved in your face. Obviously the concept failed miserably, because using such a cheap device can't work when Shep has experienced worse loses.

What if the vent was a reaper?

 

[Veelk]

Your actions do not affect the ultimate fate of the Reapers and the universe because you become indoctrinated before reaching the beam. This means the Crucible is never activated in the correct manner. This means your intervention and effect is relatively limited. So, yes, some decisions come to fruition during the game, but they don't "pay-off" in one encompassing finale. Aside from incredibly minor differences a decision may make, each decision -- in theory -- is supposed to have two layers of significance: the immediate effect and satisfaction of said decision, and how that decision makes a difference in the end.

This is less about the indoctrination theory and more about the fact that the game simply doesn't end properly. It lacks closure. It'd be like if Star Wars ended in the middle of Luke's fight with Vader. Everything still mattered, it just ended in the wrong place. But if the indoctrination theory is correct, shepard should wake up eventually (as he does in the destroy ending) and the game should continue on from there. The theory doesn't make your choices invalid as much as they become self contained: That is, the choices only affect shepard and shepard personally because they are in his mind. And they certainly don't make "every decision you made" in the game mean nothing.

 

[Galactic Fork]

The kid was purposefully chosen to pull at your heart strings. That's the true reason it was shoved in your face. Obviously the concept failed miserably, because using such a cheap device can't work when Shep has experienced worse loses.

I bet lots of kids died when Shepard, you know, destroyed a solar system. Course, they were Batarian, so nobody cares.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

I was being facetious in that Bio will just say that was the ending then just have Mark Meer read off his lines from the bathroom while they give us a slide show or something half assed that goes over the indoc theory.

It was a long day, my sarcasm is off.

 

[Omega]

The kid was purposefully chosen to pull at your heart strings. That's the true reason it was shoved in your face. Obviously the concept failed miserably, because using such a cheap device can't work when Shep has experienced worse loses.

Yeah I know this.

But I just wish BioWare wasn't so stupid. In a series that has been about character interaction and building friendships/romances, you just throw in some stupid little kid as a cheap device?

That's a bigger slap in the face than the ending.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

Remember though, the kid isn't real...no one helped him onto the shuttle when the Reaper was coming and Anderson couldn't hear him. Hes not real I tell you!

 

[Tookay]

Yeah I know this.

But I just wish BioWare wasn't so stupid. In a series that has been about character interaction and building friendships/romances, you just throw in some stupid little kid as a cheap device?

That's a bigger slap in the face than the ending.

Could have just had Ashley or Kaiden pop up in your dreams, taunting you for your failures. Would have been more effective.

 

[HK-47]

I bet lots of kids died when Shepard, you know, destroyed a solar system. Course, they were Batarian, so nobody cares.

Kids dont exist in Mass Effect except to pull heart strings. Of course expecting kid models from the company that cant bother to make a female model for major races after 3 games kinda explains this.

 

[Cagey]

Could have just had Ashley or Kaiden pop up in your dreams, taunting you for your failures. Would have been more effective.

More effective from a logical narrative standpoint, yes.

But I was glad I got to kill one of those two in ME1, and I was pissed the other came back to haunt me and waste a roster spot in ME3.

Those scenes just weren't necessary. It's utter shit. Just show him dreaming of Reapers demolishing cities.

 

[Tookay]

Remember though, the kid isn't real...no one helped him onto the shuttle when the Reaper was coming and Anderson couldn't hear him. Hes not real I tell you!

The soldiers were all just part of the illusion too, maaaaan.

So was Anderson.

And earth.

What if the vent was a reaper?

Now that you mention it, I recall seeing a similar gray vent on the baby reaper in ME2. Bioware's pretty smart, leaving all that evidence behind, even back then.

 

[Dresden]

Remember how you had to send someone through the vents during the suicide mission in ME2? That was a metaphor--some will make it through the passage, some won't. The chosen will see the light of truth.