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Arthur Gies (Vox)

 

[Apophenia Overload]

It also detracts from direct criticism of the people causing problems. Rather than call Destructoid the entity out on bullshit, I'd rather call Sterling out on his.

Totally agreed. It seems like a few prima donna Twitter drama queens are the worst offenders, really. Though IGN should receive a black eye for their role in this, what with their own employee being in the game and all.

Just put IGN followed by the guys in the Twitter screenshots on the list and call it a day.

 

[2San]

I'm wondering rather than changing the ending. They'll flesh out the ending, so it makes sense. They could make something interesting from your crew members perspective(also helps if they show how they got on that ship) and showing more clearly the after math of your choices. So they'll keep their artistic integrity intact by not changing the ending all the while providing satisfaction for those who are dissatisfied atm.

 

[firehawk12]

As someone who is game press (though on a significantly smaller scale than the mentioned), a part of me really dislikes putting everybody who works at the same establishment under one umbrella. It, to me, just echoes the over generalisation that the writers in question are doing to those complaining (eg: entitled whiners).

It also detracts from direct criticism of the people causing problems. Rather than call Destructoid the entity out on bullshit, I'd rather call Sterling out on his.

Honestly, it doesn't help when everyone in the press is jumping on the "Forbes guy" (he doesn't deserve the respect of naming him, obviously). If the guy offends you so much, why not just ignore him? By attacking him like this, they're almost justifying what he thinks about the game review industry.

 

[Apophenia Overload]

I'm wondering rather than changing the ending. They'll flesh out the ending, so it makes sense. They could make something interesting from your crew members perspective(also helps if they show how they got on that ship) and showing more clearly the after math of your choices. So they'll keep their artistic integrity intact by not changing the ending all the while providing satisfaction for those who are dissatisfied atm.

That's what I'm hoping, too. Bioware has made their bed; they must lie in it. If they want to change the endings by saying it was Indoctrination or a dream or VR and Shepard is still in the Geth consciousness, that's fine. But I hope they don't retcon the end.

 

[hateradio]

I'm wondering rather than changing the ending. They'll flesh out the ending, so it makes sense. They could make something interesting from your crew members perspective(also helps if they show how they got on that ship) and showing more clearly the after math of your choices. So they'll keep their artistic integrity intact by not changing the ending all the while providing satisfaction for those who are dissatisfied atm.

An info dump, so to speak, would work. I hope they can make the conversation "low level" this time.

 

[thetechkid]

That's what I'm hoping, too. Bioware has made their bed; they must lie in it. If they want to change the endings by saying it was Indoctrination or a dream or VR and Shepard is still in the Geth consciousness, that's fine. But I hope they don't retcon the end.

Why? What makes the end worth redeeming?

 

[RDreamer]

That would mean it's lying, but if it is, why doesn't it just not let him access it? We see walkways pop up on either side of the central beam. Just keep those lowered. Or don't even mention them. There's no way he would get to them, neither could he deduce with any certainty what they do.

Because the cycle is now broken. The collective consciousness of the organic races over the millions of years has conceived of a way to stop the reapers. If not by next cycle, by the cycle after or the one after that they would have yet another crucible. The reaper solution is flawed, and thus it must start anew. That's why I think he leaves that option open. Well, partially I think it's a bit of bad writing here, too.

Still doesn't make it a foregone conclusion if you reap them before the synthetics show any sign of wanting to eradicate all organics. We don't know when they set their clock at 50,000 years, whether they always did this or if they had an extended period of observing the patterns.
The games went out of their way to show that the Geth were the Reapers' instruments, that they were literally manipulated by the Reapers and that whenever they were hostile to organics otherwise it was to defend themselves. It just sucks that you can't call Star Child on this crap. Have it defend it the way you do here. I'd still think it's flawed reasoning, but it's be a lot better than Shep just accepting it as fact. The ending of the game is not the time to lampshade this kind of stuff.

The reaper technology itself is millions of years more advanced than anything in the galaxy. In order for them to come into existence, that means they already have the data of millions and millions of years before them. The time since then was likely like a blink of an eye to them. Anything you've seen in the game was incredibly micro in scale.

Also, I don't think the assertion is that all synthetics will eventually rebel and destroy organics. I think the assertion is that synthetics will. I.E. any synthetics. It's a foregone conclusion that eventually some synthetic would.

I don't think this is quite what they got, then, because we aren't doing that.

That's because they don't completely understand their fans. I know that isn't what they got, but I believe the reason they (or he or whoever the fuck the writer was) made this ending
for the sake of getting people to talk about the philosophical and moral ramifications of the three options. I think they were themes that they had been exploring throughout the series, and whoever wrote the ending decided to go far overboard with those themes and try and provoke a sort of conversation on them.

So why not just do that immediately then? Tell Shep this is the only solution, he'll do it without much protest, it seems. He believes everything he's told by Star Child.

He doesn't believe everything. In fact he does kind of protest a few, though meekly (likely because the guy's damn near dead). He questions the star child when he says that synthetics will come back and rebel. He says "maybe..." in disbelief. He questions the control option and says that's what the illusive man wanted, and almost sounded dismissing because of that. The only reason he sounds a bit more positive about this option is because it was presented just after the option that would destroy all synthetics.

 

[hateradio]

Why? What makes the end worth redeeming?

It would be easier to implement.
It would be easier to explain the current events versus to create new ones.
It would go with what we now have.
It would allow us to know what Mac/Casey were actually thinking. (Yeah . . .)
It would keep the end they want, but with the answers we desire.

 

[Apophenia Overload]

Why? What makes the end worth redeeming?

Because Bioware has made their bed, they must lie in it. I'm not saying the events on the Citadel needed to have happened in "reality", but they should at least say it was a nightmare or something. Writing it completely out seems... too much, I don't know.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I'm wondering rather than changing the ending. They'll flesh out the ending, so it makes sense. They could make something interesting from your crew members perspective(also helps if they show how they got on that ship) and showing more clearly the after math of your choices. So they'll keep their artistic integrity intact by not changing the ending all the while providing satisfaction for those who are dissatisfied atm.

I really don't know if they can "change" it.

All they might be able to do is explain it or define the current ending more effectively.

I do not think they are capable of crafting something, removing the current ending altogether and inserting a new ending.

I just don't see how they can give what some of the fans are hoping for when it comes to an entirely new experience.

For me; the ending is the very least of the issues that Mass Effect 3 has.

 

[sleeprockss]

As someone who is game press (though on a significantly smaller scale than the mentioned), a part of me really dislikes putting everybody who works at the same establishment under one umbrella. It, to me, just echoes the over generalisation that the writers in question are doing to those complaining (eg: entitled whiners).

It also detracts from direct criticism of the people causing problems. Rather than call Destructoid the entity out on bullshit, I'd rather call Sterling out on his.

That's how I feel, for as long as I can remember people have been doing that. It's where that stupid phrase " you can't spell ignorant without IGN" comes from. Personally, I don't like Greg Miller as a writer but I don't shun IGN completely just because of him. That's why I go to sites like Giantbomb because I like all of the writers that work there.

 

[firehawk12]

That's how I feel, for as long as I can remember people have been doing that. It's where that stupid phrase " you can't spell ignorant without IGN" comes from. Personally, I don't like Greg Miller as a writer but I don't shun IGN completely just because of him. That's why I go to sites like Giantbomb because I like all of the writers that work there.

I almost wish I didn't see the Alex Navarro thing because I would like to think that the GB guys are above all this shit. :/

 

[hateradio]

Maybe they can ask for the rights of 2001: A Space Odyssey, attach the light show, the room, and the

Spoiler

fetus

, and call it a day.

I think that would be artistic enough.

 

[RDreamer]

It would be easier to implement.
It would be easier to explain the current events versus to create new ones.
It would go with what we now have.
It would allow us to know what Mac/Casey were actually thinking. (Yeah . . .)
It would keep the end they want, but with the answers we desire.

Yeah, all of these things are why I just want more clarification and maybe more scenes. That and the realist in my knows if they were to completely rewrite the ending they couldn't get the budget and do it decently at all.

Also, I just think it'd be better to try and wrap your mind around clarification instead of trying to completely rewrite the experience and what you saw the first time. It'd now be like "oh I get it now" instead of "Oh I guess this is the ending now and I can forget that other stuff I previously saw"

 

[2San]

That's what I'm hoping, too. Bioware has made their bed; they must lie in it. If they want to change the endings by saying it was Indoctrination or a dream or VR and Shepard is still in the Geth consciousness, that's fine. But I hope they don't retcon the end.

Yeah, I have a lot of trouble forcing people to change their work in an artistic sense(even though I personally believe game devs are craftsmen rather than artists but that's another debate). I have no trouble demanding clarification though.

An info dump, so to speak, would work. I hope they can make the conversation "low level" this time.

Honestly imo you could remove choice altogether. Shepard already made the choices in the core game, just let us see the effect of those choices.

I really don't know if they can "change" it.

All they might be able to do is explain it or define the current ending more effectively.

I do not think they are capable of crafting something, removing the current ending altogether and inserting a new ending.

I just don't see how they can give what some of the fans are hoping for when it comes to an entirely new experience.

For me; the ending is the very least of the issues that Mass Effect 3 has.

It's a more realistic solution and one that panders all sides.

I think in general people think it's a good game, they're just bewildered by everything that happens in last 30 minutes.

 

[inky]

These journalist types and their circle jerks bringing to light why I gave up on videogame sites long ago (other than Giantbomb, who honestly, just moved on from the conversation and recognized their role more as entertainers than anything else). Funny to see these guys trying so hard to defend the status quo when they are being exposed, not even pretending they are capable of receiving criticism or having a conversation when they are being called out. They must have really felt it this time.

 

[hateradio]

Also, I just think it'd be better to try and wrap your mind around clarification instead of trying to completely rewrite the experience and what you saw the first time. It'd now be like "oh I get it now" instead of "Oh I guess this is the ending now and I can forget that other stuff I previously saw"

It could also make some people even more resentful. You mean all those wasted weeks arguing about colors with people on the internet were for nothing? All that speculation is now gone to waste!

That's one of the reasons I don't like to talk about, or even think about, the endings very much. There's no point to it because they obviously didn't bother to think about it either.

 

[thetechkid]

If they do end up "clarifying" the endings instead of making a good ending I'm just gonna pretend the crucible locked onto all of the Reapers and blew a hole through them. Afterwards Shepard gets a drink with Garrus.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I just don't see how the whole 'I'm a creative' is related in any way to having a proper ending to a product in any medium.

It just sounds like more meaningless semantics.

 

[Cagey]

Has this been posted yet?

EDIT: see WARP10CK 12:13am.

Thanks.

 

[WARP10CK]

Has this been posted yet?

Fake this is the real one

 

[Rufus]

Also, I don't think the assertion is that all synthetics will eventually rebel and destroy organics. I think the assertion is that synthetics will. I.E. any synthetics. It's a foregone conclusion that eventually some synthetic would.

Which makes it even shittier, to be honest. You could harvest organics without the looming threat of annihilation by synthetics even, because organics might very well accomplish that themselves, too. The Rachni Wars would have been a good example, had ME2 not insinuated that they were indoctrinated at that point... On a smaller scale, extinction wars seemingly happened all the time regardless. Why only preserve them when they're wiped out by synthetics?

That's because they don't completely understand their fans. I know that isn't what they got, but I believe the reason they (or he or whoever the fuck the writer was) made this ending
for the sake of getting people to talk about the philosophical and moral ramifications of the three options. I think they were themes that they had been exploring throughout the series, and whoever wrote the ending decided to go far overboard with those themes and try and provoke a sort of conversation on them.

"Lots of speculation" indeed. They really shouldn't have bothered to give the Reapers a motivation beyond advancing themselves.

He doesn't believe everything. In fact he does kind of protest a few, though meekly (likely because the guy's damn near dead). He questions the star child when he says that synthetics will come back and rebel. He says "maybe..." in disbelief. He questions the control option and says that's what the illusive man wanted, and almost sounded dismissing because of that. The only reason he sounds a bit more positive about this option is because it was presented just after the option that would destroy all synthetics.

Nah, he sounds more optimistic about it because Star Child says he's different than TIM, i.e. not indoctrinated already or just because he's the Space Messiah (willpower, I guess).

 

[Karl2177]

Too much. It's too much. I'm dying.

I wanted to reply to this saying "it's what he does, but with a different publisher each time", but I was a bit late on noticing it.

EDIT: On a completely different note, I've been taking care of a friend's dog while he's on vacation. I went up today and Kai Leng'ed. Totally enjoyed that bowl of cereal.

 

[Antiochus]

If you destroyed it, you get a war asset on the Illusive Man's base worth 100 points. If you saved it, you get a different one, worth 110 points.

Yeah, typical BioWare.

If true, it is beyond pathetic and evasive.

These and other evidence point to the fact that the ending is the least of the game's problems.

 

[Dresden]

Someone tell these dumbos that sometimes it's best to ignore criticism. You gotta hunker down and turtle up until the shitstorm passes. Going on Twitter? Fuckwits.

 

[Dance Inferno]

So I just replayed the ending and got the "perfect" ending. I have to say, that 5 second clip of the rubble with Shepard gasping for breath totally changes the way I perceive the ending completely. It gives a little "what-if" scenario that I am actually quite positive BioWare will be expanding on in DLC. Or even if they don't, it's just representative of the tenacious spark that made me fall in love with Commander Shepard from the get go, and how she just won't quit.

Anyway, the more I think about the Indoctrination Theory, the more I think it's more wishful thinking than anything else. Quite a few of the main tenets of this theory don't really hold up to scrutiny. First the fact that there was a Reaper roar when Anderson calls you away from the vent doesn't indicate that the indoctrination "failed." There are like 17 Reapers tearing Vancouver to bits, is it surprising that one of them decided to roar? Not really.

Then we have the kid and how no one bothered to help him onto the shuttle. I thought that was weird when it was brought up, but I just rewatched that scene and the whole point of it is to show how terrified this kid is. You spend a good 30 seconds getting close ups of his face as he sees his city getting obliterated. Then he runs in fear to board the shuttle. Sure, no one is helping him, but the point of this scene is to show how terrified this child is, before running to "safety." Of course his shuttle gets blown to smithereens, and this affects Shepard deeply (which results in the recurring dream of her chasing the boy). I think the Catalyst showing up in the form of the kid is nothing more than the Catalyst materializing in a form that is important to Shepard.

Then we have the whole "everything in the Citadel is a dream" argument, which can mainly be explained away logistically. Why are there infinite bullets? Well it would be pretty annoying to run out of ammo in that section, especially since one of the final choices involves you shooting at the canister. Why can't you kill the Keeper? Well have you ever been able to kill a Keeper? BioWare would have had to animate the Keeper dying, all for a 2 second gameplay clip. Not worth the programming time or effort. Why can't you kill Anderson? Same reason. Why is Shepard clutching her left side after she shoots Anderson? Fine that's a little misleading, but I assume she got hurt at some point during the entire fight for Earth (not least when she got fried by Harbinger's laser), so yes it makes sense that she is in pain.

Anyway, you get the picture. Would I have liked the ending to be different? Sure, why not. Do I hate it? Not totally. Like I said, that clip of Shepard gasping for air makes all the difference for me - without it I would be a little frustrated. We may not know what happens to her after she takes that breath, but I can at least convince myself that this ending wasn't it. There is more. We may never be privy to it, but there is more. And that satisfies me.

 

[Psychoward]

^ It satisfies you that you got an incomplete ending?

 

[nateeasy]

Is it possible to catch Dr. Eva before she reaches the ship?

 

[NZNova]

I had 6000+ assets but didn't get the shepard breath bit with the destroy ending. I missed my 5 seconds! That's like 30% of the ending!

 

[hateradio]

Is it possible to catch Dr. Eva before she reaches the ship?

No.

 

[thetechkid]

I think the Catalyst showing up in the form of the kid is nothing more than the Catalyst materializing in a form that is important to Shepard.

I don't like this because there is literally 3 games worth of characters more important than some kid at the start of the game that it could've taken the form of.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Is it possible to catch Dr. Eva before she reaches the ship?

Nah it is totally scripted, if you catch up to her she immediately teleports to further ahead (hm teleporting seems to be a recurring thing in ME 3)

 

[Dresden]

Nah it is totally scripted, if you catch up to her she immediately teleports to further ahead (hm teleporting seems to be a recurring thing in ME 3)

indoctrination

 

[Dance Inferno]

^ It satisfies you that you got an incomplete ending?

It satisfies me because I don't feel like Shepard's story is "over." It's hard to explain, it's kind of like the scene at the end of Halo 3 if you finish it on Legendary, or the clip at the end of God of War 3; it's a little snippet that hints at the fact that this character's story is not over. Sure, we may never play or hear from her ever again, but when you think back to the Mass Effect trilogy your last memory of Shepard isn't her death, but the mystery of what she did afterwards.

I don't like this because there is literally 3 games worth of characters more important than some kid at the start of the game that it could've taken the form of.

Well if you ordered the Collector's Edition and got the art book, they refer to the kid as "the face of the people on Earth whom Shepard could not save." I would say that's pretty damn important. It's more symbolic than anything. The kid is just one person, true, but he represents all the humans that Shepard has failed to rescue from the Reapers.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

As someone who is game press (though on a significantly smaller scale than the mentioned), a part of me really dislikes putting everybody who works at the same establishment under one umbrella. It, to me, just echoes the over generalisation that the writers in question are doing to those complaining (eg: entitled whiners).

It also detracts from direct criticism of the people causing problems. Rather than call Destructoid the entity out on bullshit, I'd rather call Sterling out on his.

The list of writers coming out in defense of this seems to be you and the Forbes guy. Do you know of others?

 

[Doublesith]

The list of writers coming out in defense of this seems to be you and the Forbes guy. Do you know of others?

Stephen Totilo. http://kotaku.com/5895369/why-im-glad-bioware-might-change-mass-effect-3s-ending-for-the-fans?tag=opinion

 

[thetechkid]

Well if you ordered the Collector's Edition and got the art book, they refer to the kid as "the face of the people on Earth whom Shepard could not save." I would say that's pretty damn important. It's more symbolic than anything. The kid is just one person, true, but he represents all the humans that Shepard has failed to rescue from the Reapers.

Yeah I figured that out after 2 seconds of playing the demo, but I still don't like it.

 

[Mammothtank]

The endings just feel so hollow because of ONE element...

1) The Crucible discharging will destroy all Mass Relays

We were shown in Arrival just how destructive an exploding Mass Relay is. The immeasurable blast can wipe out an entire star system and the galaxy overview during the chain reaction shows just how widespread the blast waves were. Every system with a Mass Relay is wiped out of existence and this is for every single choice in the game. How the Normandy out-maneuvered a blast wave moving faster than any ship, even Reapers, is beyond me.

Hell, Shepard would have saved more lives just by leaving the Reapers to their work rather than wiping out the Milky Way.

 

[HK-47]

It satisfies me because I don't feel like Shepard's story is "over." It's hard to explain, it's kind of like the scene at the end of Halo 3 if you finish it on Legendary, or the clip at the end of God of War 3; it's a little snippet that hints at the fact that this character's story is not over. Sure, we may never play or hear from her ever again, but when you think back to the Mass Effect trilogy your last memory of Shepard isn't her death, but the mystery of what she did afterwards.



Well if you ordered the Collector's Edition and got the art book, they refer to the kid as "the face of the people on Earth whom Shepard could not save." I would say that's pretty damn important. It's more symbolic than anything. The kid is just one person, true, but he represents all the humans that Shepard has failed to rescue from the Reapers.

This doesnt change anything. Why does he represent that? Why do we care? Why does Shepard care? Why is he the first and only little kid in Mass Effect? I wonder...

 

[Jubs]

Sad, but not surprising. Reacting in anger, confusion, or denial is typical behavior when one is confronted by the uncomfortable truth. They insult everyone else, hoping to deflect any shortcomings they may have, while refusing to put themselves under any sort of self-examination.

Hopefully they'll realize that the truth can only help, and they'll learn and grow from this. Not going to hold my breath, though.

 

[thetechkid]

The endings just feel so hollow because of ONE element...

1) The Crucible discharging will destroy all Mass Relays

We were shown in Arrival just how destructive an exploding Mass Relay is. The immeasurable blast can wipe out an entire star system and the galaxy overview during the chain reaction shows just how widespread the blast waves were. Every system with a Mass Relay is wiped out of existence and this is for every single choice in the game. How the Normandy out-maneuvered a blast wave moving faster than any ship, even Reapers, is beyond me.

Hell, Shepard would have saved more lives just by leaving the Reapers to their work rather than wiping out the Milky Way.

TIM's true goal was to use Shepard to wipe out all the aliens...

 

[hateradio]

The endings just feel so hollow because of ONE element...

1) The Crucible discharging will destroy all Mass Relays

We were shown in Arrival just how destructive an exploding Mass Relay is.

This has been discussed repeatedly. However, it's uncertain if the Crucible's space magic destroys mass relays in a similar fashion to that shown in Arrival. Some speculate that it uses all the relay's energy before destruction, therefore only destroying the relay without injury to the system around it.

This doesnt change anything. Why does he represent that? Why do we care? Why does Shepard care? Why is he the first and only little kid in Mass Effect? I wonder...

He represents the reason why most of us won't have children. Not to mention Shepard, who'll never get to see those little blue babies.

 

[Cagey]

Well if you ordered the Collector's Edition and got the art book, they refer to the kid as "the face of the people on Earth whom Shepard could not save." I would say that's pretty damn important. It's more symbolic than anything. The kid is just one person, true, but he represents all the humans that Shepard has failed to rescue from the Reapers.

No, we all understand that's what the kid represents.

The point is that they could have used actual people that Shepard encountered who had died -- including someone he sentenced to death in ME1 -- to get the point across. Instead, they chose to roll with some melodramatic hamfisted bullshit. Using a kid is such a lazy, trite, contrived means of generating sympathy... and the way they injected that kid into the scene that featured absolutely zero other civilians? Ugh.

 

[Mammothtank]

Playing through with a save game transfer in comparison to my friend who played a fresh game on ME3 revealed a startling revelation...

The story never changes, no matter what you picked in previous games.


Kill the last Rachni Queen? Oh look, she wasn't the last.

Put Anderson as Human Councilor? He gets bored and puts Udina in anyways.

Killed Wrex? Here's his Brother that does the same crap Wrex does and is also bothered by a rival Krogan in the exact same manner.

Dumped Legion out an air lock? Insert Geth VI with the same model.

Become a hero in the eyes of the Quarian people and publicly humiliate the warmongers and promote peace...doesn't matter, war anyways.

Rewrite the Geth, doesn't matter. Even though Legion says it made it more difficult for the Quarians, it doesn't, it's the same scripted events with the same stalemate.

This was the ONE where they could have had a real branching storyline without fear of writing the universe into a corner because it was to be the final chapter!

 

[firehawk12]

You know, I just noticed that the thread for The Killing is being bumped now. I'm done with that show much like I'm done with BioWare, but the critical response to the whole thing is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that TV critics are actually able to be critical about an AMC property and not worry about being fired or losing exclusive interviews or preview discs or whatever.

I mean, I just don't get why one critical community could look at something that is pretty crummy and call the producer out on it while another one feels the need to protect the producers from "entitled fans".

It's not like TV is any more "high art" than video games anyway.

 

[Omega]

How are they going to "clarify" the ending? Just make a post on your blog saying "lol we were high" or don't even bother. You've already clarified by saying you wanted to keep it high-level. We're too dumb and could never understand what you were trying to achieve..

At first I wanted a new ending but now I wish they wouldn't even bother because it's just going to be worse. They're just going to see these video game "journalists" saying how we're entitled and that we want a happy ending and they're just going to run with that.

There's so much stuff they need to explain and answer that a 2 hour DLC isn't going to be enough. Not to mention this DLC is going to have to be free which means they're just going to half-ass it.

If it wasn't free there would be no point. They would basically be saying "if you didn't like our old ending you're going to have to buy our new ending" and that would make them look even worse in the eyes of their fans.

 

[Mammothtank]

Some speculate that it uses all the relay's energy before destruction, therefore only destroying the relay without injury to the system around it.

What's chasing Joker though? It's not cosmic love.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Guys, we are the space kid. We are the childish, immature response that is dictating the end of Mass Effect to our own accord. Bioware is Shepard, forced into a confusing and unfulfilling situation caused by them, and then caused by us because of them. We, the child, demanded two endings to Mass Effect: an ending where Shepard lives and is happy, and another ending where he dies, sacrificing himself to save the galaxy. But because Bioware accumulated enough pre-order assets, a third, middle path was given: an ending that is incoherent and satisfies no one. Bioware chose this option.

They anticipated all of this.

 

[First Name]

What's chasing Joker though? It's not cosmic love.

What... what if it IS? Speculation