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[itsjustJEFF]

I will put targetted BOM as part of the consideration. MS seems to like $499 while Sony seems to want maintain their $399 success.
In an ideal case, Sony SSD input(R&D) will produce a much higher output(results), or in another case, the SSD output is proportionate to its input. So it's a wonder how much effort Sony spent on this 'game changer' at $399 BOM.
IIRC i read from Epic China forums, that Sony chose 825gb for cost reasons.

Im just throwing tons of questions beyond fawning over the SSD. Hopefully this opens up more threads, and more people can pick up and makes its way to the press or Sony. We need more clarity. With more openess, it puts pressure how both consoles will set the msrp. Instead of riding on the buzz and excitement. If for unfavorable circumstances that your targetted BOM got inflated, gamers deserve to know too.
I also think PS5 visuals will start off strongly because of their generation policy. Hopefully the press and gamers take that into consideration.

I personally don't think Series X game will be held back visually, anyway. I think "game design" on Series X "could" be held back due to having to work on the One/X. I think people will be surprised when they see Series X games and they look as good as PS5 games and vice versa.

If ALL developers start with the highest res textures and the highest poly count models, wouldn't they just have to scaled it back for One/X? I would like to believe that Xbox will push their devs take full advantage of their faster architecture and powerful GPU/CPU and then pair it down for their older consoles. Am I way off in thinking this way?

 

[Craig of War]

"You people" really can't get it through your brain that gpu performance doesnt mean shit without everything else being able to support it. I can put 1000hp motor into my honda civic but if I don't upgrade the trans the tires the suspension and everything that puts that power to the ground on it, it wont really mean shit.
But I'm sure someone will just quote this and say "TFLOPs bla bla bla"

You can't compare computer CPU and GPU to car parts sorry that just a bad comparison. On paper when you look the Specs for the Series X and the PS5 what do you see i see a advantage for the Series X in everything except the SSD. But the Series X also has a SSD but at a slower speed but it is still a SSD and not a HDD so a SSD cannot make up for the difference for everything else especially the CPU and GPU and CU .

 

[Degree]

You can't compare computer CPU and GPU to car parts sorry that just a bad comparison. On paper when you look the Specs for the Series X and the PS5 what do you see i see a advantage for the Series X in everything except the SSD. But the Series X also has a SSD but at a slower speed but it is still a SSD and not a HDD so a SSD cannot make up for the difference for everything else especially the CPU and GPU and CU .

do People really believe that? Only because of the SSD/IO games will look and run better on PS5 compared to XSX? Delusional if true.


Did they even read what Matt said?

As I have said before, I expect the difference in third party titles to be modest, as they can’t be designed around a faster solution.

You simply can not build your game on the fastest SSD and then scale down. this just isn’t possible and will never be.

The only thing that’s possible is that scaling based on GPU.
Thats why on PC you have different settings like low, medium, ultra. Etc.
But you can NOT have different settings based SSD. It doesn’t work like that.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

"You people" really can't get it through your brain that gpu performance doesnt mean shit without everything else being able to support it. I can put 1000hp motor into my honda civic but if I don't upgrade the trans the tires the suspension and everything that puts that power to the ground on it, it wont really mean shit.
But I'm sure someone will just quote this and say "TFLOPs bla bla bla"

"You people" really can't get it through your brain that gpu performance doesnt mean shit without everything else being able to support it. I can put 1000hp motor into my honda civic but if I don't upgrade the trans the tires the suspension and everything that puts that power to the ground on it, it wont really mean shit.
But I'm sure someone will just quote this and say "TFLOPs bla bla bla"

So you think that MS designed a not fully custom console while having access to all the system architects from every vendor and Graphics card providers in the world, building directx12u, creating advanced data center architecture based on maximum iops, throughput and minimum latency, paid for a fast wide bus and GPU. They all of that but designed a system thats not able to supply those components with the data they need in a robust fashion.

You really believe that this is a random and reactive cobbling together of parts that don't function as a whole to meet the targets that their first party and other studios desire.

They just went to micro center and built an itx computer?

Ok

 

[Psykodad]

do People really believe that? Only because of the SSD/IO games will look and run better on PS5 compared to XSX? Delusional if true.


Did they even read what Matt said?

You simply can not build your game on the fastest SSD and then scale down. this just isn’t possible and will never be.

The only thing that’s possible is that scaling based on GPU.
Thats why on PC you have different settings like low, medium, ultra. Etc.
But you can NOT have different settings based SSD. It doesn’t work like that.

"Modest" could be the difference between native 4k and 4k CB.
Modest could also be the difference between 8K and 4K textures.

Lots of room for interpretation.

 

[Marlenus]

I am still struggling to come up with graphical features the ps5 ssd enables that the series x cannot.

With compression lets say it delivers 10GB/s of bandwidth and is very low latency. That means in a 33ms window it can transfer upto 330MB if data, after latency this drops down and if 60fps is your target then it halves.

The only thing i can think of is to increase the variety of textures in a given scene because devs don't have to worry about getting it into vram in time.

I do think it is fair to say that if devs do use this to increase texture variety that would probably have more visual impact than slightly better ray tracing or other graphical effects the increased GPU performance of xbox provide unless that performance is the difference between a locked framerate and a slightly variable one.

 

[sinnergy]

So you think that MS designed a not fully custom console while having access to all the system architects from every vendor and Graphics card providers in the world, building directx12u, creating advanced data center architecture based on maximum iops, throughput and minimum latency, paid for a fast wide bus and GPU. They all of that but designed a system thats not able to supply those components with the data they need in a robust fashion.

You really believe that this is a random and reactive cobbling together of parts that don't function as a whole to meet the targets that their first party and other studios desire.

They just went to micro center and built an itx computer?

Ok

I think they do, posters come with great logic but it’s MS , so they must have stupid engineers...

the whole Series X is Custom design to leverage all that power ..

 

[Panajev2001a]

So you think that MS designed a not fully custom console while having access to all the system architects from every vendor and Graphics card providers in the world, building directx12u, creating advanced data center architecture based on maximum iops, throughput and minimum latency, paid for a fast wide bus and GPU. They all of that but designed a system thats not able to supply those components with the data they need in a robust fashion.

You really believe that this is a random and reactive cobbling together of parts that don't function as a whole to meet the targets that their first party and other studios desire.

They just went to micro center and built an itx computer?

Ok

It is likely not what happened, but it would not be the first time a company makes a mistake or pushes the boundary on a particular set of numbers for PR / marketing / misguided technical reasons and has bottlenecks that help the competition achieve more with less. In this view companies with smart people and money never make mistakes nor have bottlenecks in their products: Pentium 4 says hello amongst many others.

This is the kind of hubris that lost them the performance crown and got their fans all raging in disbelief with the Xbox One “they invented DirectX, they are all about power” no way they would concede an almost 40% performance win.

 

[killatopak]

Can you really PR talk in a conference made for developers? Last I heard it was for GDC and not for the general public. It’s pretty easy for devs to debunk whatever is said there as soon as they get a dev kit.

 

[eastwood333]

It is likely not what happened, but it would not be the first time a company makes a mistake or pushes the boundary on a particular set of numbers for PR / marketing / misguided technical reasons and has bottlenecks that help the competition achieve more with less. In this view companies with smart people and money never make mistakes nor have bottlenecks in their products: Pentium 4 says hello amongst many others.

This is the kind of hubris that lost them the performance crown and got their fans all raging in disbelief with the Xbox One “they invented DirectX, they are all about power” no way they would concede an almost 40% performance win.

What are these bottlenecks that XSX has, genius?

 

[Panajev2001a]

What are these bottlenecks that XSX has, genius?

Did I state it had? Did I not state that it was not likely to be the case (I am not fond for appeals to authority with or without aggressive defences like that)?

Are you that enraged from the other thread you need to chase me with something in other threads too? Is this your brand of faith showing itself too?

 

[longdi]

It is likely not what happened, but it would not be the first time a company makes a mistake or pushes the boundary on a particular set of numbers for PR / marketing / misguided technical reasons and has bottlenecks that help the competition achieve more with less. In this view companies with smart people and money never make mistakes nor have bottlenecks in their products: Pentium 4 says hello amongst many others.

This is the kind of hubris that lost them the performance crown and got their fans all raging in disbelief with the Xbox One “they invented DirectX, they are all about power” no way they would concede an almost 40% performance win.

Please, Xbox 1 mistake was the Kinect focus, which was a very advance tracking system that its offspring made its way into iPhones security and all.
There is the problem of betting on a component eating into your BOM.

Xbox OG, 360 and OneX wreck the competition. But hey lets also talk about 360 memory card to fit the narratives.

The movement to paint MS R&D as a 'micro-center' is tiring.
Some keep asking us to read librebrave ree posting, but its bascially the same 'micro-center' movement. Like somehow Sony made so much customisation of AMD rDNA2 gpu that activity based loading is a new discovery!

Going off precedence, how much customisation did Mark made to the PS4 and PS4 pro? Like more ACE units and ROPs and half-fp, okay.

 

[ToadMan]

Sorry I deal with independently verifiable facts not misinformation.

Every person who was in the nanite team or took part in its development was hired in 2019 or early 2020. Period.

Uh huh.... So would you mind posting your verfiable facts for this claim then? I'm genuinely curious...

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

So you think that MS designed a not fully custom console while having access to all the system architects from every vendor and Graphics card providers in the world, building directx12u, creating advanced data center architecture based on maximum iops, throughput and minimum latency, paid for a fast wide bus and GPU. They all of that but designed a system thats not able to supply those components with the data they need in a robust fashion.

You really believe that this is a random and reactive cobbling together of parts that don't function as a whole to meet the targets that their first party and other studios desire.

They just went to micro center and built an itx computer?

Ok

I don't know about that, the Series X is well put together and custom. But PS5 is apparently more efficient, and I'm not just talking about the SSD. I wouldn't be surprised if some early multiplatform games perform better on PS5 because of its commitment to efficiency and removal of all bottlenecks.

We had a dev on here (BGs) that went as far to say that the PS5 has achieved 'perfect efficiency'. TFLOPs just being one theoretical measurement of a system which doesnt translate to real performance is a truthbomb that will hit many hard when the games and certainly multiplats are eventually compared.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Please, Xbox 1 mistake was the Kinect focus, which was a very advance tracking system that its offspring made its way into iPhones security and all.
There is the problem of betting on a component eating into your BOM.

Xbox OG, 360 and OneX wreck the competition. But hey lets also talk about 360 memory card to fit the narratives.

The movement to paint MS R&D as a 'micro-center' is tiring.
Some keep asking us to read librebrave ree posting, but its bascially the same 'micro-center' movement. Like somehow Sony made so much customisation of AMD rDNA2 gpu that activity based loading is a new discovery!

Going off precedence, how much customisation did Mark made to the PS4 and PS4 pro? Like more ACE units and ROPs and half-fp, okay.

Wow, you are quick to just hand wave away anything you do not want people to look too much into it (“shit this post actually makes a lot of sense and does not allow me to make fun of PS5 clockspeed ... stop looking at it people... stop!!!!”) and the funny it is that it seems that you are both dismissing it and admitting you did not read it .

Still being hurt about PS4 being faster and developers getting tons of efficiency out of it over the years eh ? (“deeper ACE queues, more ACE’s, volatile bits for cache line management, GPU cache bus bypass, secondary background/security SoC, etc...” and in PS4 Pro “HW accelerated multi resolution render targets, RPM/double rate FP16, PS4 compatibility and boost mode, ID buffer for checkerboard rendering optimisations, primitive discard accelerator, etc...”)

Companies can make mistakes, companies can make the wrong bets, smart people can be misguided... so what?

 

[Leyasu]

Did I state it had? Did I not state that it was not likely to be the case (I am not fond for appeals to authority with or without aggressive defences like that)?

Are you that enraged from the other thread you need to chase me with something in other threads too? Is this your brand of faith showing itself too?

So where do you think the XsX's bottlenecks are? And how are sony going to outperform them?

 

[killatopak]

OneX wreck the competition

One X is an amazing hardware but it didn’t wreck the competition.

it just released a year later for $100 more.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't know about that, the Series X is well put together and custom. But PS5 is apparently more efficient, and I'm not just talking about the SSD. I wouldn't be surprised if some early multiplatform games perform better on PS5 because of its commitment to efficiency and removal of all bottlenecks.

We had a dev on here (BGs) that went as far to say that the PS5 has achieved 'perfect efficiency'. TFLOPs just being one theoretical measurement of a system which doesnt translate to real performance is a truthbomb that will hit many hard when the games and certainly multiplats are eventually compared.

This feels the opposite end of the GCN or DC vs PS2 arguments in a way...

 

[longdi]

I don't know about that, the Series X is well put together and custom. But PS5 is apparently more efficient, and I'm not just talking about the SSD. I wouldn't be surprised if some early multiplatform games perform better on PS5 because of its commitment to efficiency and removal of all bottlenecks.

We had a dev on here (BGs) that went as far to say that the PS5 has achieved 'perfect efficiency'. TFLOPs just being one theoretical measurement of a system which doesnt translate to real performance is a truthbomb that will hit many hard when the games and certainly multiplats are eventually compared.

If you are thinking energy efficient, it remains to be seen though.
Need to test both off the watt-ameter. I have a suspicion Series X big gpu may not be less efficient.

 

[Panajev2001a]

One X is an amazing hardware but it didn’t wreck the competition.

it just released a year later for $100 more.

Indeed and I think it pisses people off how well PS4 Pro actually competes day in and day out.

If you are thinking energy efficient, it remains to be seen though.
Need to test both off the watt-ameter. I have a suspicion Series X big gpu may not be less efficient.

Hope or finding it fun != evidence induced inference or suspicion

 

[ToadMan]

You know that everything on the XSX APU is custom right?

Every RDNA GPU has a geometry engine for example...

So not sure where you get the idea that XSX is JUST beefier CUs... but we will find out soon enough about each.

He's pointing out that while the Xsex has more CUs, it has the same number of other pipeline elements (perhaps - we still lack details, but AMDs documetnation would suggest that) and those are running at a 20% higher clock on PS5.

Cache - 20% faster. Geometry Engine - 20% faster. ROPS - 20% faster. ACE - 20% faster.

Xsex 44% more CUs - but those and everything else 20% slower clock.

Will that be significant? Definitely. Which is the better appraoch will depend on the scenario - I predict the 2 will practically have identical performance on just GPU performance.

It'll be the other system elements that make the practical difference.

 

[Panajev2001a]

So where do you think the XsX's bottlenecks are? And how are sony going to outperform them?

I would think fire would be the best way for Sony to address it, strawman arguments tend not to like it unless wet, it could be raining yeah .

Seriously though, I do not see it as a bottlenecked architecture so not sure why you want me to speculate about it without evidence... maybe... memory access beyond the 10 GB barrier or moving memory around to avoid speed penalty may worsen peak efficiency (in both cases you are reducing bandwidth or wasting it and RAM with copies), perhaps when processing a lot of small triangles or due to lower performance of lower clocked but similarly sized HW (ROPS, Geometry Engine/Triangle setup and rasterisation blocks... same or similar HW resources running at a much lower clock), and anything that stresses external I/O beyond a certain point.

I see both consoles struggling to adapt to what patterns suit the other best.

 

[kuncol02]

I am still struggling to come up with graphical features the ps5 ssd enables that the series x cannot.

In theort it could allow for more aggressive LOD with better details close to camera and worse far from it, but that is highly theoretical, because game which would require full speed of PS5 drive for that would quickly run out of space for game data.

 

[longdi]

One X is an amazing hardware but it didn’t wreck the competition.

it just released a year later for $100 more.

I, too, was in a year later for $100 more, camp.

But the extra time probably was because Scorpio is a off-shoot die, exclusively made for them. Thats' customisation too.

The $100 went to more, faster ram, bigger bus, uhd drive and probably MS know $399 wont help them and just wanted to make best for their fans..

Imo if Amd could deliver this special Scorpio die at the same time as Neo, and MS sales was competitive, they will launch ahead on, $399, but cut back on some of the bells (10gb ram + 352bit, no uhd drive), and still come out top because of the custom die.

Since the war was lost already, they chose to cater to the fanbase.

 

[Elog]

So where do you think the XsX's bottlenecks are? And how are sony going to outperform them?

In theort it could allow for more aggressive LOD with better details close to camera and worse far from it, but that is highly theoretical, because game which would require full speed of PS5 drive for that would quickly run out of space for game data.

We obviously do not have all the technical aspects (we have the Cerny GDC talk, the UE5 reveal plus multiple commentary from Epic and other developers) but this is the Cliffs notes version of it.

Normally we have a strict VRAM budget that is the key limitation behind texture fidelity, number of textures used and level design. In the traditional context this VRAM budget is filled during a loading screen moment (real or alternative solutions such as an elevator ride/ corridor).

Sony has increased I/O throughout and latency to such a level that textures can be loaded on demand with just the immediate environment around the player loaded into VRAM at any moment of time (Sony claimed the textures that might be needed in the next 0.5 sec or so).

This means that levels/areas can have a much less restricted use of numbers of textures (flamingos can actually be added to the pond without blowing the VRAM budget!), much less restrictions when it comes to texture resolution, and synthetic limitations to levels/areas can be eliminated.

And since the amount of textures used in any given scene and their resolution is much more important for how good graphics look beyond 1080p than resolution as such, Sony has seemingly addressed the key bottle-neck. Currently, we do not sit on any information that XSX has really addressed this beyond adding a highly competent SSD which means that XSX seems to sit on the same bottle-neck when it comes to the VRAM budget as the broader PC platform.

 

[longdi]

He's pointing out that while the Xsex has more CUs, it has the same number of other pipeline elements (perhaps - we still lack details, but AMDs documetnation would suggest that) and those are running at a 20% higher clock on PS5.

Cache - 20% faster. Geometry Engine - 20% faster. ROPS - 20% faster. ACE - 20% faster.

Xsex 44% more CUs - but those and everything else 20% slower clock.

Will that be significant? Definitely. Which is the better appraoch will depend on the scenario - I predict the 2 will practically have identical performance on just GPU performance.

It'll be the other system elements that make the practical difference.

more micro-center movement.

Lets see if 2.23ghz 95% sustained is a reality or another '3950x up to 4.7ghz' term.

 

[kuncol02]

We obviously do not have all the technical aspects (we have the Cerny GDC talk, the UE5 reveal plus multiple commentary from Epic and other developers) but this is the Cliffs notes version of it.

Normally we have a strict VRAM budget that is the key limitation behind texture fidelity, number of textures used and level design. In the traditional context this VRAM budget is filled during a loading screen moment (real or alternative solutions such as an elevator ride/ corridor).

Sony has increased I/O throughout and latency to such a level that textures can be loaded on demand with just the immediate environment around the player loaded into VRAM at any moment of time (Sony claimed the textures that might be needed in the next 0.5 sec or so).

This means that levels/areas can have a much less restricted use of numbers of textures (flamingos can actually be added to the pond without blowing the VRAM budget!), much less restrictions when it comes to texture resolution, and synthetic limitations to levels/areas can be eliminated.

And since the amount of textures used in any given scene and their resolution is much more important for how good graphics look beyond 1080p than resolution as such, Sony has seemingly addressed the key bottle-neck. Currently, we do not sit on any information that XSX has really addressed this beyond adding a highly competent SSD which means that XSX seems to sit on the same bottle-neck when it comes to the VRAM budget as the broader PC platform.

You missed the point. If lets say half of one room takes >5GB, then how many content you can have in game which still need to fit into 100-150GB? Big part of that 150GB will be high quality audio. I don't want games to be like DMC5 where 2/3 of game is walking identical corridors.
Point is. Consoles are still botlenecked by size of their SSDs and by size of bluray disks.

 

[Elog]

You missed the point. If lets say half of one room takes >5GB, then how many content you can have in game which still need to fit into 100-150GB? Big part of that 150GB will be high quality audio. I don't want games to be like DMC5 where 2/3 of game is walking identical corridors. Point is. Consoles are still botlenecked by size of their SSDs and by size of bluray disks.

Currently, the duplication of assets is the key driver behind game size as shown by the Spiderman breakdown. Spiderman has a total texture size right now of roughly 1 GB that currently floods the VRAM budget (and HDD) due to duplication.

So while you are right that there of course will be new bottle necks, if we assume that the developers etc are correct about the PS5, the difference can be striking as seen in the UE5 demo with the new bottle neck level/limit due to the increase in I/O capabilities.

And like I stated in another post, if you were to render Avatar at 1080p with the high quality and number of textures used, the resulting movie would blow any 4K rendered game out of the water. And that difference would purely be because of the number of textures and their resolution. So net-net, increasing textures quality and the number of textures you can use for environments/models give much more bang-for-the-buck than pure increase in number of pixels on the screen once you hit 1080P/1440p levels of pixels for any normal monitor or large living room TV.

Edit: The Spiderman texture size is the total compressed size.

 

[Shmunter]

You missed the point. If lets say half of one room takes >5GB, then how many content you can have in game which still need to fit into 100-150GB? Big part of that 150GB will be high quality audio. I don't want games to be like DMC5 where 2/3 of game is walking identical corridors.
Point is. Consoles are still botlenecked by size of their SSDs and by size of bluray disks.

The higher the quality the assets, the more possibility for reuse potential. 10 completely looking houses could use 2 houses of assets by rearranging layout, furniture, clutter, textures, scale, merging. Getting those high quality assets fast enough into ram will be key.

 

[longdi]

I personally don't think Series X game will be held back visually, anyway. I think "game design" on Series X "could" be held back due to having to work on the One/X. I think people will be surprised when they see Series X games and they look as good as PS5 games and vice versa.

If ALL developers start with the highest res textures and the highest poly count models, wouldn't they just have to scaled it back for One/X? I would like to believe that Xbox will push their devs take full advantage of their faster architecture and powerful GPU/CPU and then pair it down for their older consoles. Am I way off in thinking this way?

Im thinking about PS5 exclusive first party games, we know Sony devs have been working them, and will be launch much earlier than MS ones.

Some press may look at them and scream hardware victory for Sony.

 

[longdi]

You can't compare computer CPU and GPU to car parts sorry that just a bad comparison. On paper when you look the Specs for the Series X and the PS5 what do you see i see a advantage for the Series X in everything except the SSD. But the Series X also has a SSD but at a slower speed but it is still a SSD and not a HDD so a SSD cannot make up for the difference for everything else especially the CPU and GPU and CU .

Yep, both sets of CPU and SSD are the game changer as they brings up the baseline, while the GPU makes icing on the cake.

Even for Series X 'slow' SSD, it is still insanely fast. The SSD movement to overplay SSD is going to be in for a shock.

For instance, the old AMD 8 cores FX cpu got a bad rep back then, but it still runs comfortably current games! Now imagine Zen 2 cpu with its fast 7-cores, and with a 2.4gbs SSD baseline. The minimum specs games are going to explode, and you will want a better GPU to beautify things!

 

[geordiemp]

Im thinking about PS5 exclusive first party games, we know Sony devs have been working them, and will be launch much earlier than MS ones.

Some press may look at them and scream hardware victory for Sony.

Not some press, EVERYONE.

People judge what they see, the result.

The main fact is last gen was ~ 2 TF and 8 GB RAM, a ratio of 4

This gen, all being equal., 10 TF should have 40 GB of RAM. 12 TF 48 GB. I guess OS should not increase much, but if assets do then even 50 GB does not cut it.

So the new consoles, to do higher detail, are massively short of RAM, that is the deficiency. You either add 100 GB RAM or stream data in every frame as fast a spossible for balance.

Or you keep the same detail as current gen and add resolution / frame rate.

 

[FranXico]

Even for Series X 'slow' SSD, it is still insanely fast. The SSD movement to overplay SSD is going to be in for a shock.

For instance, the old AMD 8 cores FX cpu got a bad rep back then, but it still runs comfortably current games! Now imagine Zen 2 cpu with its fast 7-cores, and with a 2.4gbs SSD baseline. The minimum specs games are going to explode, and you will want a better GPU to beautify things!

Talks about people overplaying a large SSD advantage in one paragraph, then overplays a GPU advantage, which is not as large, in the next.

LOL

 

[Panajev2001a]

more micro-center movement.

Lets see if 2.23ghz 95% sustained is a reality or another '3950x up to 4.7ghz' term.

I like how you are just concern trolling so openly and unashamedly .

 

[kuncol02]

Currently, the duplication of assets is the key driver behind game size as shown by the Spiderman breakdown. Spiderman has a total texture size right now of roughly 1 GB that currently floods the VRAM budget (and HDD) due to duplication.

So while you are right that there of course will be new bottle necks, if we assume that the developers etc are correct about the PS5, the difference can be striking as seen in the UE5 demo with the new bottle neck level/limit due to the increase in I/O capabilities.

And like I stated in another post, if you were to render Avatar at 1080p with the high quality and number of textures used, the resulting movie would blow any 4K rendered game out of the water. And that difference would purely be because of the number of textures and their resolution. So net-net, increasing textures quality and the number of textures you can use for environments/models give much more bang-for-the-buck than pure increase in number of pixels on the screen once you hit 1080P/1440p levels of pixels for any normal monitor or large living room TV.

Edit: The Spiderman texture size is the total compressed size.

Spiderman was designed to be streamed from 80mb/s drive. To bootleneck XSX (and we are trying to prove that its bootlenecked by its SSD) you would require almost 50 times more textures. Plus 50 times more complex models and 50 times bigger audio data. If I remember corectllty from Insomniac presentation there is 10GB of duplicated data in Spiderman. That leave us with 35GB of not duplicated data. Even making it 10 times bigger fills half of PS5 SSD and 2 bluray discs. And that's one of best case scenarios (open world city) for repetitive data in game.

The higher the quality the assets, the more possibility for reuse potential. 10 completely looking houses could use 2 houses of assets by rearranging layout, furniture, clutter, textures, scale, merging. Getting those high quality assets fast enough into ram will be key.

You have 10 rooms, not houses of assets. How much you can stretch that before game starts feeling repetitive? 5, maybe 8 hours?. From my experience more detailed models, faster they feel repetitive.

 

[ToadMan]

The only thing that’s possible is that scaling based on GPU.
Thats why on PC you have different settings like low, medium, ultra. Etc.
But you can NOT have different settings based SSD. It doesn’t work like that.

This is 100% incorrect in the context of nest gen consoles. You argument is almost entirely backwards.

Stating it so forcefully is kind of ironic given how wrong it is lol

 

[geordiemp]

Spiderman was designed to be streamed from 80mb/s drive. To bootleneck XSX (and we are trying to prove that its bootlenecked by its SSD) you would require almost 50 times more textures. Plus 50 times more complex models and 50 times bigger audio data. If I remember corectllty from Insomniac presentation there is 10GB of duplicated data in Spiderman. That leave us with 35GB of not duplicated data. Even making it 10 times bigger fills half of PS5 SSD and 2 bluray discs. And that's one of best case scenarios (open world city) for repetitive data in game.



You have 10 rooms, not houses of assets. How much you can stretch that before game starts feeling repetitive? 5, maybe 8 hours?. From my experience more detailed models, faster they feel repetitive.

Your thinking of streaming like current gen, with spiderman the buildings block the view and streaming in blocks worth of data as you move holding all the block of the city in the available RAM. Think of the blocks as levels.

If the game does the same then yes all SSD will be fine, but you still dont get it, that is loading the level by blocks.

Ps5 can load the data it needs each frame , if the game is made for that.

Then there is RAM, Ps4 Pro and Xb1X current half gen have 12 GB, next gen is only 16 GB, good luck fitting high quality assets into that every 10 seconds or whaetver the game "block size and timing is".

But the disk storage you ask, currently 45 GB typical for say HZD1, add some kraken compression and 100 GB disks (or 2), NO dublicate data and you have got 3-4 x asset quality potential.

 

[Dee_Dee]

"You people" really can't get it through your brain that gpu performance doesnt mean shit without everything else being able to support it. I can put 1000hp motor into my honda civic but if I don't upgrade the trans the tires the suspension and everything that puts that power to the ground on it, it wont really mean shit.
But I'm sure someone will just quote this and say "TFLOPs bla bla bla"

Yikes...MS engineers knew what they were doing when they built the Series X. Not really sure why people act like MS hired a bunch of 5 years old that just threw a bunch of random parts together and called it a day.

Sony and MS clearly had different approaches. Xbox will do some things better than the PS5 and the PS5 will do some things better than Xbox.

What’s so bad about that?

 

[sinnergy]

Yikes...MS engineers knew what they were doing when they built the Series X. Not really sure why people act like MS hired a bunch of 5 years old that just threw a bunch of random parts together and called it a day.

Sony and MS clearly had different approaches. Xbox will do some things better than the PS5 and the PS5 will do some things better than Xbox.

What’s so bad about that?

One must be the absolute best ... that’s what’s wrong .

and that’s not the case

ms should show Hellblade 2 cinematic, controllable .

you see the shot from the Viking village .

camera zooms in to house level. Details shown by designers

camera zooms to ground level . Details shown.

camara zooms ant level , walk the ground (we have (N)antes) Details shown.

ant opens mouth

Camera zooms into ant , showing amazing micro detail inside . Details shown.

last shot : camera zooms out from ant into outer space , past Milky Way all seamless.

min every zoom ,they can stop and show the tech.

Eat that UE5

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

who?

 

[Thirty7ven]

Sony first party. PlayStation gamers about to eat.

 

[killatopak]

Sony first party. PlayStation gamers about to eat.

I don’t think he’s first party. A Sony first party dev wouldn’t have his hands on an Xbox console and vice versa.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Your thinking of streaming like current gen, with spiderman the buildings block the view and streaming in blocks worth of data as you move holding all the block of the city in the available RAM. Think of the blocks as levels.

If the game does the same then yes all SSD will be fine, but you still dont get it, that is loading the level by blocks.

Ps5 can load the data it needs each frame , if the game is made for that.

Then there is RAM, Ps4 Pro and Xb1X current half gen have 12 GB, next gen is only 16 GB, good luck fitting high quality assets into that every 10 seconds or whaetver the game "block size and timing is".

But the disk storage you ask, currently 45 GB typical for say HZD1, add some kraken compression and 100 GB disks (or 2), NO dublicate data and you have got 3-4 x asset quality potential.

I don't think the RAM is that much of an issue because of the efficiencies made. This gens consoles had 5GB for base and 5.5GB/9GB for mid-gens but because the I/O and HDD limitations they had to use ~half the RAM to store the next ~30 seconds of game data that might be used. Yes only 16GB for next-gen (13.5GB for XSX games) but now they don't have to 'park' anywhere near as much data (textures being the biggest RAM hog) in RAM and can just stream GB/s per frame.

I wonder if all the confusion around SFS (Sampler Feedback Streaming) and the 2-3x efficiency/effective RAM is just referring to the above scenario? Now they stream textures in per frame and don't have to park them. Boom 2-3x effective boost.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I don’t think he’s first party. A Sony first party dev wouldn’t have his hands on an Xbox console and vice versa.

I know, but per his words differences in multiplat will be modest.

It’s in exclusives that we will really see devs express their freedom on the PS5. Hence why I said PlayStation gamers.

 

[killatopak]

I know, but per his words differences in multiplat will be modest.

It’s in exclusives that we will really see devs express their freedom on the PS5. Hence why I said PlayStation gamers.

Oh I thought you were answering the post above yours asking who was Matt.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I don’t think he’s first party. A Sony first party dev wouldn’t have his hands on an Xbox console and vice versa.

Sony San Diego will be (probably already is) making the next MLB for Xbox too. A bit hard to accomplish that without a dev kit.

 

[PlayVerso]

Everyone praises PS5 over Series X, especially its SSD technology, I am concerned that it is a reason to raise the final price of the console more than expected.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Everyone praises PS5 over Series X, especially its SSD technology, I am concerned that it is a reason to raise the final price of the console more than expected.

I think pricing has been set internally for quite a while for both and barring something drastic happening their pricing won't change. I think both will be lower priced than most expect.

I hope so anyway because if not then they will both be by far the most expensive consoles by a distance in the UK.

 

[geordiemp]

I don't think the RAM is that much of an issue because of the efficiencies made. This gens consoles had 5GB for base and 5.5GB/9GB for mid-gens but because the I/O and HDD limitations they had to use ~half the RAM to store the next ~30 seconds of game data that might be used. Yes only 16GB for next-gen (13.5GB for XSX games) but now they don't have to 'park' anywhere near as much data (textures being the biggest RAM hog) in RAM and can just stream GB/s per frame.

I wonder if all the confusion around SFS (Sampler Feedback Streaming) and the 2-3x efficiency/effective RAM is just referring to the above scenario? Now they stream textures in per frame and don't have to park them. Boom 2-3x effective boost.

We have yet to see streaming per frame file IO capability other than the UE5 demo, streaming per frame in ms is allot more than streaming in advance X seconds of expected gameplay which just needs a fast SSD and not the full IO optimisations..

Everyone praises PS5 over Series X, especially its SSD technology, I am concerned that it is a reason to raise the final price of the console more than expected.

GAF, Era and Reddit are not the gaming population.

 

[MaulerX]

It is also capable of doing things the PS5 can’t or can’t do as well.

He's probably talking about Ray-Tracing. And as Dictator from DF has said, the Series X has a massive advantage in compute units, which Ray-Tracing is directly tied to. Funnily this is one area that doesn't get talked about enough.

There's going to be a noticeable difference between both machines 3rd party games. And it's not going to come from the SSD. I'm talking about clear graphical differences from better effects and Ray-Tracing. Interesting times ahead.