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[system11]

Worse Tory shite. Without the LibDems, they can get on with removing us from the Bill of Human Rights (and replacing it with a 'British Bill of RIghts that I presume Cameron and Osborne will scribble on the back of a napkin while drunk on celebratory champagne).

Well the Human Rights thing is actually valid if you take the time to look into it, basically we gave more control and influence to the EU court than even Germany does, due to a poorly thought out clause in the rushed HRA bill.

Theresa May has already mentioned bringing back the snoopers charter.

This a thousand times over, although Labour were also supporters in fact being the party who started the ball rolling with RIPA years ago, so there's little to pick between the two largest parties. Unfortunately the Libdems were the only party speaking out against it and their previous supporters just kicked them to the curb for it.

 

[ghst]

Again, this isn't really fair. The voters are misinformed because the parties lie to them constantly.

do wonder if there's any issue being with an educated liberal leaning voter base being more aware of their supposed representatives lying to them, and that reflecting in the results.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think that's only the 'real' message if that's the message you're determined to hear (or create). Before I read this thread I had no idea that this election revolved entirely around the disabled.

Well not entirely no, obviously, but the conservatives have not done a good job of looking after the poor and vulnerable and we have statistics to show that.

I'd say the broader strokes were more about the wealthy getting richer and the poorer getting poorer (with disabled people in the poorer category).

 

[Porcile]

I don't think I've ever met someone who genuinely likes Conservative politicians and yet my entire county voted pretty much entirely Conservative. I don't think I'll ever understand.

 

[electricshake]

Seriously, who the fuck voted in the Tories. I'm sick of this bullshit!

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Again, this isn't really fair. The voters are misinformed because the parties lie to them constantly.

Election campaigns are full of lies and deception. Media inundating people with misinformation and straight up lies.
But none of this should matter. If you're a low to middle income earner, then you should do whatever you can to stop the party that's been cutting your social safety net. There's a reason why things are more difficult for you, and it's because of the choice you made 5 years ago.

God dammit.

I shouldn't have even bothered to vote.

You should always vote.

I don't think I've ever met someone who genuinely likes Conservative politicians and yet my entire county voted pretty much entirely Conservative. I don't think I'll ever understand.

They lie. There's probably lots of people who say 'everyone's as equally bad..politicians are liars!', before voting for tories.

 

[JonathanEx]

I don't think I've ever met someone who genuinely likes Conservative politicians and yet my entire county voted pretty much entirely Conservative. I don't think I'll ever understand.

They're not feeling the pinch, things going alright for them, no point risking change?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

I only want them to produce content that their position of not being beholden to advertisers allows them to produce or allows then to produce much better than commercial stations. They should let commercial broadcasters do their thing and then fill in the gaps that get ignored because they're no financially viable. IMO the election coverage would fall under this banner. Buying to rights to show football doesn't. Spend that same money that you spent on acquiring the rights to show the FA Cup or whatever and produce a show no one else will make. Let ITV show the FA cup.

To be honest I watch far more netflix/youtube stuff then I do terrestrial tv these days.

 

[Hasney]

EDIT: Once all the votes are in, an AV model should be easy to make.

Not entirely. The difficulty of predicting who would have put who in second place would make some of the more marginal seats tough to predict.

 

[Rich!]

I know this isn't the thread for it but holy fuck am I embarrassed

In Costa after a ridiculous walk to get a cold cooler to chill me down. Ordered my drink. And the guys behind the counter just stood there doing nothing. I waited, not sure why they were just standing there not doing ANYTHING. I Looked around, after a while got fed up and said "look guys I'm really in a hurry"

Realised its VE day. Oh my fucking god

 

[Scousefury]

Ain't no grey area left in British politics, it is now a clear us vs them country. Ukip will fade into memory Libs are dead for decades and it will fall like this, You got yours? vote Conservative. Poor and downtroden? vote Labour. 20 Years of Conservative government here we come.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I know this isn't the thread for it but holy fuck am I embarrassed

In Costa after a ridiculous walk to get a cold cooler to chill me down. Ordered my drink. And the guys behind the counter just stood there doing nothing. I waited, not sure why they were just standing there not doing ANYTHING. I Looked around, after a while got fed up and said "look guys I'm really in a hurry"

Realised its VE day. Oh my fucking god

Those men died for your right to a Costa Cooler.

They are tasty though tbf

 

[Alienous]

You should always vote.

Not when a vote for Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats was a vote for the Conservatives, and not when a vote for Labour is a vote for resignation and fucking nothing.

UK politics is a shit.

 

[jonno394]

Ain't no grey area left in British politics, it is now a clear us vs them country. Ukip will fade into memory Libs are dead for decades and it will fall like this, You got yours? vote Conservative. Poor and downtroden? vote Labour. 20 Years of Conservative government here we come.

Please explain what financial situation I need to be in to either fall in to the "you got yours" category or "poor and downtrodden" categories, I need to know which party I should vote for!

 

[Daffy Duck]

Ain't no grey area left in British politics, it is now a clear us vs them country. Ukip will fade into memory Libs are dead for decades and it will fall like this, You got yours? vote Conservative. Poor and downtroden? vote Labour. 20 Years of Conservative government here we come.

I can see it happening to be fair, just like when I was growing up (born 81) and Labour coming to power in the 90's, I could feel the disgust in my Grandad's front room when the results came in.

My kids will be the same in 20 odd years time when Labour get back in.

 

[SmokyDave]

do wonder if there's any issue being with an educated liberal leaning voter base being more aware of their supposed representatives lying to them, and that reflecting in the polls.

I don't understand? Educated liberal voters vote for the good guys, not those evil liars on the other side.

Well not entirely no, obviously, but the conservatives have not done a good job of looking after the poor and vulnerable and we have statistics to show that.

I'd say the broader strokes were more about the wealthy getting richer and the poorer getting poorer (with disabled people in the poorer category).

That's perhaps why people in the middle (such as myself) don't feel particularly politically motivated right now. It's always about the rich and the poor.

Regardless, I don't think there was one clear message defining this particular election. That the Tories skew towards the wealthier isn't something new for 2015.

 

[EliCash]

If you think the country is predominately right wing you really need to go and read about actual right wing and left wing governments. Both parties have gradually been moving closer to the middle line for years. That's how Blair got elected if you recall, I actually voted for him at the time.

No I'm good, read plenty on "actual right wing and left wing governments."

 

[Scousefury]

Please explain what financial situation I need to be in to either fall in to the "you got yours" category or "poor and downtrodden" categories, I need to know which party I should vote for!

Easy really. Private sector "you got yours" Public sector "poor and downtrodden"

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Yes, people care about what affects them personally, and it's completely understandable. Unless you have experienced it or do not know people affected by all this then it is very easy to fall in to the trap of disassociation.

It's not hard to have empathy for wider issues, people chose simply not to care and rather focus directly on what benefits them and only them.

Or, even worse, chose to actively hurt and punish those they feel are less deserving/people they see as leeches who only exist to leech off their hard work.

I think that's only the 'real' message if that's the message you're determined to hear (or create). Before I read this thread I had no idea that this election revolved entirely around the disabled.

One of the biggest impacts of the upcoming parliament will be cuts to welfare that will directly have an impact on the disabled, the less well off of society. This was reported on a number of times through leaked plans and such of where devastating cuts will come from.

That people essentially endorsed this idea is them shedding any kind of social responsibility we should all feel for those people and saying fuck them, why should I pay for them, why should I help them, why should they be able to exist off my hard work.

It's a disgusting attitude to hold and it's one that will spread into all manner of publicly funded services soon enough.

 

[Porcile]

They're not feeling the pinch, things going alright for them, no point risking change?

I don't see how they're not feeling the pinch in impoverished areas like Medway which has now become a Tory stronghold.

 

[Cryxo93]

Pass this round guys https://www.change.org/p/party-leaders-reform-our-voting-system-to-make-it-fair-and-representative-makeseatsmatchvotes?source_location=trending_petitions_home_page&algorithm=curated_trending

The system needs to change.

 

[War Peaceman]

Regardless, I don't think there was one clear message defining this particular election. That the Tories skew towards the wealthier isn't something new for 2015.

Nail on the head. It is correct that the Tories are bad for inequality and disproportionately favour the wealthier but everyone knows that. It isn't a persuasive argument. If it matters to you, you weren't voting Tory anyway. Labour had no real argument. They were a poor opposition party, though their campaign wasn't awful.

 

[Crispy75]

Not entirely. The difficulty of predicting who would have put who in second place would make some of the more marginal seats tough to predict.

See my edit - turns out Ashcroft did some polling on the subject: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2014/12/ashcroft-national-poll-con-30-lab-31-lib-dem-8-ukip-19-green-5/

 

[jonno394]

Easy really. Private sector "you got yours" Public sector "poor and downtrodden"

So if I worked at Mcdonalds for minimum wage I'd vote Tories?

 

[Hasney]

Pass this round guys https://www.change.org/p/party-leaders-reform-our-voting-system-to-make-it-fair-and-representative-makeseatsmatchvotes?source_location=trending_petitions_home_page&algorithm=curated_trending

The system needs to change.

No, I hate any system which stops me from electing someone locally. The German system mentioned earlier is something I should look into, but this system seems worse than what we have now even.

 

[Eidan]

I dont doubt thats really how you " feel", I'm laughing at how silly it is.

And I don't doubt that you'd find it silly, judging by your post history.

 

[RedShift]

Going to spend all weekend playing Kerbal Space Program. Very interested in learning how to leave this planet right now.

 

[travisbickle]

I only want them to produce content that their position of not being beholden to advertisers allows them to produce or allows then to produce much better than commercial stations. They should let commercial broadcasters do their thing and then fill in the gaps that get ignored because they're no financially viable. IMO the election coverage would fall under this banner. Buying to rights to show football doesn't. Spend that same money that you spent on acquiring the rights to show the FA Cup or whatever and produce a show no one else will make. Let ITV show the FA cup.

When you're not getting any money you have to make/purchase programs that have mainstream popularity, you know more than anyone that the lefty-liberal Marxists at the BBC would love to show Eastern European communist propaganda films 24/7 but they have rules for what percentages of different types of content they have to provide and what viewing figures they need to be getting.

 

[Kito]

AV wouldn't have done anything for proportionality. In fact, given that a majority of UKIP voters would have listed conservative as their 2nd preference, it would have resulted in an even larger Tory majority.

You can speculate as much you like, but no sweeping generalisation can be made about voters' 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. preferences. Hell, opinion polls failed on 1st preferences and speculation is never going to substantiate anything on the 2nd.

For the record, I'm not claiming AV is the best voting system in the world; it has its flaws like FPTP does. The point is not that it's the best, but that it is better than FPTP.

 

[The Cowboy]

Going to spend all weekend playing Kerbal Space Program. Very interested in learning how to leave this planet right now.

Nice one, actually got a smile and a laugh from me.

 

[Scousefury]

So if I worked at Mcdonalds for minimum wage I'd vote Tories?

You were deffo not one them 'Shy' tories.

 

[CyclopsRock]

It does sort of seem like poor people voting in their own interest is good and voting against it makes them idiots, where as rich people voting for their interests make them selfish and voting against them makes you a hero. Basically, if you disagree with the left, you're either selfish, an idiot, or both. Allllllll 11 million of em.

 

[SmokyDave]

One of the biggest impacts of the upcoming parliament will be cuts to welfare that will directly have an impact on the disabled, the less well off of society. This was reported on a number of times through leaked plans and such of where devastating cuts will come from.

That people essentially endorsed this idea is them shedding any kind of social responsibility we should all feel for those people and saying fuck them, why should I pay for them, why should I help them, why should they be able to exist off my hard work.

It's a disgusting attitude to hold and it's one that will spread into all manner of publicly funded services soon enough.

We don't have the ability to say 'look, I dig most of your shit but that one thing has to go'. If you look at a party and they're closest to your views on aggregate, you're probably going to vote for them. It doesn't mean you totally endorse each and every policy they have, it just means they're the closest to your political beliefs.

 

[Maledict]

One of the biggest impacts of the upcoming parliament will be cuts to welfare that will directly have an impact on the disabled, the less well off of society. This was reported on a number of times through leaked plans and such of where devastating cuts will come from.

That people essentially endorsed this idea is them shedding any kind of social responsibility we should all feel for those people and saying fuck them, why should I pay for them, why should I help them, why should they be able to exist off my hard work.

It's a disgusting attitude to hold and it's one that will spread into all manner of publicly funded services soon enough.

I think you are missing smokey's point.

As someone with two disabled sisters, both of whom on permanent disability benefits (one born that way, one with extremely advanced MS), I am incredibly passionate about these issues. But you will not win an election on them. That's not a new thing, it's simply a cardinal rule of politics.

Labour won big when it's message was based around letting people earn money, and using that money to fund social causes. That was the heart of Blairism - a message to the middle class that it was okay to do better, to earn more money, to be ambitious because that success would be passed down to the less well off.

You won't ever persuade a majority of people based on the idea that if the other team gets in horrible things will happen to the poor. It's sad, I wish it wasn't the case, but it isn't anyway to win elections.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

I'm sure there was another right wing guy who used to talk about a One Nation...

 

[RedShift]

I'm sure there was another right wing guy who used to talk about a One Nation...

Ed Miliband?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

BBC graphics giving off a Catherine vibe atm.

 

[anonymous_abc]

No, I hate any system which stops me from electing someone locally. The German system mentioned earlier is something I should look into, but this system seems worse than what we have now even.

The petition doesn't really specify what sort of PR system they want so I don't see your problem.

The German system is really simple really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0I-sdoSXU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Germany
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-election-system-explained-a-923243.html

 

[CyclopsRock]

When you're not getting any money you have to make/purchase programs that have mainstream popularity

Why? The whole point of them not being beholden to advertisers is that they *don't* need to care about popularity. If youre still going to chase ratings just shove adverts in there and give everyone back their license fee. I dont care is 5 people watch a TV show about the breeding habit of gnats, I'd rather they made that than some trash heap sitcom that wouldn't even make it on to C4.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

Ed Miliband?

Haha dammit

 

[system11]

Regardless, I don't think there was one clear message defining this particular election. That the Tories skew towards the wealthier isn't something new for 2015.

I think they were all going to do more or less the same thing anyway, just spinning it differently. The sole interesting part of the whole circus is Scotland voting no to independance, then electing an almost single-issue pro-independant party in nearly every seat.

I'm still waiting for a party who prioritises the interests of the average working family who aren't on benefits and aren't rich. Whoever gets in we just get milked and I'm tired of it. I also want someone with the guts to say 'you know what, we actually need a mixture of nuclear and renewable energy' and actually go and do something about the former part. Electricity bill now outstripping Council Tax in an expensive area.

 

[jonno394]

You were deffo not one them 'Shy' tories.

I rarely ever talk politics, I only decided to post in this thread when I saw all the hyperbole and venom coming from people unhappy that their party of choice didn't win.

It definitely isn't a case of us vs them like you so eloquently put it in your opening gambit.

 

[Hasney]

The petition doesn't really specify what sort of PR system they want so I don't see your problem.

The German system is really simple really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Germany

Everytime proportional representation is brought up, it's straight PR with nothing ever mentioned about local representation. For me, that's the part that need answering first, especially as I actually vote for an MP and not a leader or a party.

 

[31GhostsIV]

Well the Human Rights thing is actually valid if you take the time to look into it, basically we gave more control and influence to the EU court than even Germany does, due to a poorly thought out clause in the rushed HRA bill.



This a thousand times over, although Labour were also supporters in fact being the party who started the ball rolling with RIPA years ago, so there's little to pick between the two largest parties. Unfortunately the Libdems were the only party speaking out against it and their previous supporters just kicked them to the curb for it.

The point of the Human Rights Act is that it works above government. Nations shouldn't be able to make their own amendments to it as they see fit, that defeats the entire purpose. As per usual, it will fit with a Tory agenda that involves the poor working for low pay to benefit their extremely rich donors and friends, without fear of contravening human rights. It's bullshit and should be called out as such. A reworked bill would allow them to make people work for Welfare, for example, a trick they've already tried with the 'work experience' thing a couple of years back, where Tescos would basically get free labour, then not give the person a job and just exploit the next person forced through the door.

We've just handed the Tories our basic human rights (including privacy) on a platter and I would bet the house most Tory voters had no idea it was even on the cards. I've spoken to a fair few people today that voted Tory despite 'not really being into politics'. It's depressing as hell. If you have no interest or basic understanding of politics, then either educate yourself or don't bother voting.

 

[ghst]

I don't understand? Educated liberal voters vote for the good guys, not those evil liars on the other side.

i mean they just don't show up. see the total collapse of the lib dems in their marginals with the tories.

i mean, as an_generic_person_of_liberal_persuasion, the more i engage with the discourse, the more it just leaves a slimy film on me that i want to shower off. liberal politics is supposed to be one of social optimism and positivity, but like most i can barely tolerate the shower of bastards presented as my natural option and i'd be voting almost entirely negatively to keep the tories out.

feel like voting tory requires much less personal investment, you don't need to believe in anything other than your limited self interests so what do you care if the bloke you're voting in is a slimy two faced twat?

 

[Ding-Ding]

It does sort of seem like poor people voting in their own interest is good and voting against it makes them idiots, where as rich people voting for their interests make them selfish and voting against them makes you a hero. Basically, if you disagree with the left, you're either selfish, an idiot, or both. Allllllll 11 million of em.

That will never change. It always funny that when you get past the talk of social equality from the majority of people, what you will find that they actually fall into the demographic that benefits from such policies.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I don't think I've ever met someone who genuinely likes Conservative politicians and yet my entire county voted pretty much entirely Conservative. I don't think I'll ever understand.

I used to work with one. Middle class family, father was a policeman. He was pretty much indoctrinated. Praised everything they did and rambled on about fixing a deficit he didn't even slightly understand. I spent much time trying to convince him the error of taking every politicians statement as fact.

I said to him how do you know man has been to the moon*? He answered because he has been told or read as much so it has to be true. Not that he has seen evidence of such a thing, or that the scientific community have vast amounts of evidence to prove it. Not that it is a well accepted fact, or that we have samples from the surface, no. Because he was told it was the case. It is these people that vote for Conservatives. They lap up the bullshit like ice cream.

 

[shootfast]

Everytime proportional representation is brought up, it's straight PR with nothing ever mentioned about local representation. For me, that's the part that need answering first, especially as I actually vote for an MP and not a leader or a party.

Do what Australia does, proportional upper house. Have local representation while still having proportional representation at the same time.

 

[Lashley]

You were deffo not one them 'Shy' tories.

 

[sohois]

It's been an interesting read, these past few days in this thread. But I'm really beginning to miss the old UKPoliGAF thread. That was a well balanced community really, with groups of left and right wingers capable of quite reasonable debate. That's quite the opposite to what this thread has become.

I well understand how difficult it is to remain calm when it comes to political discussion. It can, and very often has been, a matter of life and death. No surprise that people can't really maintain a rational demeanor at such times. However, at this point the absurd overreactions are just pointless. It's obvious you're unhappy, but nothing has even happened yet and you're already calling the death of the country. Perhaps just wait a while, protest when there is something to protest.

What really gets me is the despicable patronising shite from a great deal of people going on about how they have become 'ashamed' of the country or how stupid all those Tory voters are for picking a different party to you. That someone has different political beliefs to you does not make them some moron or deserving of scorn. It's probably true that a number of people did vote for parties based on what a paper told them, or what the leader looks like or some random factor unrelated to policies, yet this is pretty likely to be true of all parties in any case. And if you meet these people then feel free to criticize them and debate them or whatever. Don't just assume that all the voters for 'the enemy' party are gullible fools whilst your own group are the only ones who can see the light. (I'll make an exception for anyone that supports Theresa May)