There's nowt to argue about, there's a referendum happening and that's it.
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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!
- Thread starter Volotaire
- Start date
- Status
There's nowt to argue about, there's a referendum happening and that's it.
The usual hyperbolic bollocks. Yawn.
PJV3
Member
There's negotiations, Cameron having to possibly back staying in, pressure from the city etc.
There's room for a bust up.
Excellent rebuttal dude. Some great counter points made, offering lots of food for thought.
/s
Yes, there is a point in complaining about it. There are relatively straightforward ways to fix imbalances and not use a bipartisan system to answer for everything. 11.3 million people voted for Tories, 18 million people voted for other parties. You can't call that fair representation. 'Two thirds' was a slight exaggeration, but not by much.
I was saying this shit back when Labour were in power and I was a Labour supporter (which I'm not now). It's not a sore loser thing.
I mean, no matter who you support, these figures are bad: "Con have 37% of the votes, 50% of the seats. Lab have 30% of the votes, 35% of the seats. SNP have 5% of the votes, 9% of the seats." Even if you're a Tory supporter you've got to be miffed that SNP got more seats than they actually deserved.
That's fair.
jamieson87
Member
Hammond stays foreign secretary.
Their bill was to get rid of our HRA and replace it, not tear up/leave the ECHR.
Cameron does back staying in. City can pressure all it wants it's going to be a public choice.
Be interesting to see how the EU deals with it collectively. No need for UKIP now really they won and have achieved their objectives.
The Cowboy
Member
Its all true (every single thing in the post) - none of it is hyperbole (in fact I'd say it isn't saying enough, let alone exaggerating).
The wording is bad, in that its not exactly well put, but its certainly not hyperbole.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Yeah, there were a few in here saying he's stood down but will throw his name into the hat again.
Is there a good pro/con list anywhere on Europe? As I'm totally blinkered and can only think of the positives (mainly the human/consumer rights).
Huw_Dawson
Member
"Man, fuck the LDs, they sold out"
*Tory government gets in unrestrected*
"Oh shit no come back"
*Tory government gets in unrestrected*
"Oh shit no come back"
There was no reckless spending. Please check your facts.
Yeah she's pretty much Satan in a dress unfortunately.
Unfortunately while openly condemning it all, Labour would have done the exact same things, they actually created the first step years ago with RIPA and senior sources were in agreement with the new communications bill.
Unfortunately the *only* way to block this was to end up with a Lib/someoneelse coalition and that got put to the sword last night because people don't understand that a coalition is a compromise, and punished LD for it.
There's a lot of misfortune.
This is my third general election, I've yet to vote for a winner, but this is the first time it's actually bothered me. Not sure if that's just a function of getting older but the messaging the public as a whole has responded to and the apparent lack of people who see things the way I do has made me want to seriously start thinking about emigrating.
Even if where I end up is as fucked up as here at least I'll be able to disassociate myself from it.
Even if where I end up is as fucked up as here at least I'll be able to disassociate myself from it.
I just hope that at the end of the day, Labour and Lib Dem and look internally and see what went wrong this campaign. Lib Dems were in a no-win scenario after entering the coalition, but even though I thought they did the best you can expect from a junior partnership, they need a full restructure. Labour hoped "we're not the Tories!" would be enough and although that was good enough for me based on the last 5 years (and having an excellent Labour MP), it wasn't enough.
I'd love an open and honest debate, but the current media would never allow it. Partisan politics are still very much in and slander and yelling are the main weapons of any front-line politician. Labour need to unfortunately adapt more to that to enact any gains. Waking up in January helped nobody.
I'd love an open and honest debate, but the current media would never allow it. Partisan politics are still very much in and slander and yelling are the main weapons of any front-line politician. Labour need to unfortunately adapt more to that to enact any gains. Waking up in January helped nobody.
PJV3
Member
If Cameron backs staying in then he needs a good result from the negotiations if he isn't going to piss off the more extreme sceptics.
I'm not saying it will be like the Major years, unless he really makes a mess of it.
Mr. Luchador
Member
I think I'm somewhat for it, but I'd have to really understand and see what the entire idea is. Is it out and out NO IMMIGRANTS AT ALL EVER can claim for 4 years? Can refugees claim?
I assume they'll just fit every immigrant with a collar from Deadlock(aka Wedlock) that's set to prime after 3 months if they haven't left.
You know, I thought I remember Labour getting the ball rolling on this internet policing. I agree in that I wouldn't have had much faith in them not doing something similar based on the voting I saw on TheyWorkForYou.
Come up North, we've got plenty of space.
Not sure, but working in export I know that any exit from Europe would have serious repercussions with regards to international trade and thus the UK economy.
i'm mainly just interested in how people didn't pick up on labour losing so badly in england till the results - we knew they were getting crushed in scotland in advance, but like so little news coverage about when it should be clear that balls was under threat etc. weren't labour people panicking when they saw no swing in key seats?
I think they should build a wall all around England. Put turrets on top and things will be golden...
LoveCake
Member
I have heard so many times today, students that switched from LibDem to LAB because of the tuition fees, moaning because CON have got in with a majority!
They have set liberalism back decades in the UK because they were upset about money, well they have the Conservatives in majority control now who are in bed with the bankers so i thought the students would be happy.
I have always voted LibDem & my MP lost her seat to a CON, the previous CON MP did zero, he was anonymous, where the LibDem MP worked her socks off & was always about in the local papers & on the local news.
People need TO THINK OF THE BIG PICTURE when voting.
They have set liberalism back decades in the UK because they were upset about money, well they have the Conservatives in majority control now who are in bed with the bankers so i thought the students would be happy.
I have always voted LibDem & my MP lost her seat to a CON, the previous CON MP did zero, he was anonymous, where the LibDem MP worked her socks off & was always about in the local papers & on the local news.
People need TO THINK OF THE BIG PICTURE when voting.
Vivalaraza
Member
I really don't understand the moral grandstanding of some Labour voters saying things like "don't you care about disabled people" or "you're so selfish" etc.
Labour were going to cut as well.
Why didn't you vote for the Greens instead?
You can criticise people for voting Conservative without going as far as condemning them as terrible human beings.
Labour were going to cut as well.
Why didn't you vote for the Greens instead?
You can criticise people for voting Conservative without going as far as condemning them as terrible human beings.
Pyramid head
Banned
That's my point too. Sure, benefit surfers should be clamped out, but they are such a low % of the benefits bill that they shouldn't be made out to to be a boogeyman. If someone genuinely needs support and came over here for the right reasons, I do think temporary benefits should be given or in genuine cases of asylum, the support needed to make a life should be given.
Attacking thr language and ignoring the content.
Although the response was dickish, it is very hard to get past the way it's worded even as someone who agrees with a lot of it.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Frankly I'm appalled that The Government hasn't simply lifted England out of the North Sea yet and put us in Orbit.
Yeah totally. If they've been granted Asylum int he UK then surely you help them as much as you can. I'd really need to read up on the idea before being able to say I'm strongly for/against it (even if it's too late).
31GhostsIV
Banned
No, just throwing their weight around and trying to take or leave the ECHR as they see fit:
"Instead there would be a Bill of Rights, which would include the principles from the convention - originally drawn up by British lawyers after the Second World War.
But it would also make clear that UK judges were not obliged to take European Court of Human Rights' rulings into account when coming to decisions."
source: http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-03/...t-and-replace-it-with-british-bill-of-rights/
How is any government fucking with the HRA a good thing, exactly?
We should get out of the EU and join the Romulans.... Or the nWo, depends how far out of orbit we can go.
uncleniccius
Member
I'm out of this thread, people are bitter and shouting down others for just having a differing opinion making it sound like their opinion is wrong.
Only terrorists say shit like that. You will now be put on the watch list.
The polls suggested there was swing. Ashcroft's polls gave more seats to Labour than the Conservatives, as I recall.
Yeah. It was a nice post in principle but used pretty reductive rhetoric
There's a fair bit of reasonable fact-dropping and discourse, too, though
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
I have heard so many times today, students that switched from LibDem to LAB because of the tuition fees, moaning because CON have got in with a majority!
They have set liberalism back decades in the UK because they were upset about money, well they have the Conservatives in majority control now who are in bed with the bankers so i thought the students would be happy.
I have always voted LibDem & my MP lost her seat to a CON, the previous CON MP did zero, he was anonymous, where the LibDem MP worked her socks off & was always about in the local papers & on the local news.
People need TO THINK OF THE BIG PICTURE when voting.
People who lie to their electorate get punished. Democracy in action.
Though I do sympathise with the LDs for the bitter pill they swallowed.
Almost finished writing a big post-mortem of the election.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Speaking more formally as a Lib Dem:
1. This is a major prestige blow, and will hurt many local parties. It is far from fatal, though. Liberals are tough buggers.
2. Clegg resigning immediately, whilst sad, is the first important step towards recovery.
3. Farron held his seat. He's an excellent guy and I hope he gets in as leader.
4. UKIP are gone for good, hopefully Without Farage they're just the Nasty Party.
5. The fact that actual human beings flipped from LD to Tory at this election boggles my mind.
6. The public being reminded about what the actual reality of true Tory government is over the next five years is going to be interesting.
1. This is a major prestige blow, and will hurt many local parties. It is far from fatal, though. Liberals are tough buggers.
2. Clegg resigning immediately, whilst sad, is the first important step towards recovery.
3. Farron held his seat. He's an excellent guy and I hope he gets in as leader.
4. UKIP are gone for good, hopefully Without Farage they're just the Nasty Party.
5. The fact that actual human beings flipped from LD to Tory at this election boggles my mind.
6. The public being reminded about what the actual reality of true Tory government is over the next five years is going to be interesting.
Welcome to the current political climate. The last 15 years have gradually eroded away reasoned debates.
Delusibeta
Banned
Youth turnout was up, apparently. 58%, compared to 52% in 2010 and 38% in 2005.
He's coming back
I can see UKIP getting bigger tbh.
Mr. Luchador
Member
If I delete my cookies, I'll be safe. Right? That's how it works, isn't it.
I honestly thought they were a flash in the pan party, but I don't think that anymore. They've had a strong showing and are basically the 'publicly acceptable' version of BNP now. Are Far-Right parties an indication of how angry/disillusioned a person is with their country?
Vivalaraza
Member
Yeah it's going to be very interesting. Will have to show some mettle and nous as a leader.
I think he is going to adopt a neutral approach to it all, a bit like he did with Scotland, until it got a bit hairy. He needs those back benchers on side so there is no way he is going to come out in favour of staying in IMO.
Carl2291
Member
Politics.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Election thoughts - sorry for length (that's what she never said)
1. Why Labour Lost
What do Labour even stand for? Tony made them a softer tory party, but Dave made the Tories nicer. Labour could be more spendy and socially liberal but isn’t that also the Lib Dems? What about the environment? Only the Greens even gave that the time of day. Basically, post-Blair they never established an identity. They are like the Tories but not quite. There are also lingering doubts that remain from Gordon Brown. There is a definite need to re-establish an identity in the manner that Blair/Smith did in the wake of Thatcher.
In my opinion, this is by establishing themselves as a true alternative to the Tories. Not the ‘anti-tory’ vote, which demonstrably does not work, but as an ideologically separated party. I think this is best achieved by assuming the position vacated by the Lib Dems, as the sensible, socially-liberal, economically centre-left party. Responsible but fair. Capitalistic but redistributive. Protective of minority interests. The SNP has shown that a competent, social democratic party can be successful if run well. The Greens and the Lib Dems are a numerically large voting base that could be brought into a big centre-lefty tent, Democrat-style. Countering the SNP is an easy win for Labour - the longer they remain dominant in Scotland, the harder it will be to remain so. This is a high-point for the SNP from which Labour can reclaim easy seats.
But those are longer-term, ideological elements. Labour were an atrocious opposition; by ineptitude or implicit agreement I don’t know. They spent five years pissing about, failing to regroup, failing to recover and failing to rehabilitate their public image. Though people may not recall exact moments in a parliament, long term images do accumulate in the psyche and all that does for Labour is Ed Milliband eating a sandwich.
This created a Seinfeldian campaign - about nothing. There was no real cohesive idea or set of ideas. Yes, they did have some good stuff in there (zero hours contracts spring to mind), but nothing resembling a coherent, structured plan. Despite the absurdity of the Tory tourettes ‘long term economic plan’, they promised a simple, clean message that tied in nicely with what they’d provided over the previous five years and was compatible with their party image - stability, continuity and economic security. It wasn’t hope, it was safety.
Ed Miliband - the best of a bad bunch of potential leaders - should not be criticised too much. He’s not ideal but who would have done better? His brother who couldn’t win over the labour party and is a dirty rotten Blair II?(Which Cameron does better anyway) He was the standout individual performer in the campaign (from both sides) in the public eye, dubious honour as that may be, but the seeds had already been sown.
Plus, the party is in a terrible state. Who are the contenders? The equivalents of Sayid Javid, Theresa May, IDS (CUNT), Michael Gove, George Osborne or Boris Johnson? Well there’s Andy Burnham, a somber northern man who as Health Minister oversaw a coverup into the failings of a Mid-staffordshire hospital. Alan Johnson, a somber looking Londoner who as Health Minister oversaw a coverup into the failings of a Mid-staffordshire hospital. Yvette Cooper, a decent and competent MP (bonus points for being female) but who happens to be married to the tainted and rejected Ed Balls. Balls and taint is not something you want to think of in a political leader. There’s Chuka Umunna, who google suggests is the British Obama, but fails to live up to the task. He’s limp, whiny and unimpressive. Ok maybe he is the British Obama. But he’s rubbish. Lastly there’s Dan Jarvis who had an impressive military career and is very solid. Ideally we need someone who connects up with identity politics to fire up the youth vote. Preferably female. Maybe asian. Asian female? (avatar quote)
In other words, there is very little of use there. Which is bad, bad news.
There are also technical aspects to the election that we simply don’t know about yet that were of utmost important. The micro-targeting strategy of the Tories seems to have been incredibly effective from the outside given their hit rate in marginals but we shall have to see on that one.
2. Why the less well off vote Tory
A smaller one to mix it up. There is a lot of hand wringing about misinformation and turkeys voting for Christmas but there are several reasons why the less well off might vote Tory.
-They broadly agree with them.
-Immigration/EU – unskilled/low pay workers often bear the brunt of immigration and the Tory nastiness helps out here. Even if they don’t say it, people associate labour with immigration and thus the conservatives are a preferable option.
-Change is scary and better the devil you know, especially when you are living paycheck to paycheck. The coalition did significantly raise the personal tax allowance, (A Lib Dem policy coopted by Osborne and not necessarily an overall positive, but on paper a good thing)
-Welfare(unemployment and disability, specifically) is seen as disproportionately bad by those who work. This may be illogical due to their own personal risk of having to use it, fuelled by media misinformation (Benefits street/Daily Mail style reporting) and a lack of perspective as to the actual welfare total.
Really, it is patronizing to assume that poorer people are idiots for voting Conservative and gets nowhere towards understanding or appreciating their point of view. There are legitimate complaints to be made about misinformation and media bias but the left has surrendered the argument on welfare and on immigration. It is their responsibility to argue the necessity of both.
2. The Great UKIP Tragedy
UKIP are an awful party, nominally about the EU but basically about returning England (not the UK) to its old ways, where women were trophies, men were men and men were white. Mostly the white thing really. Exaggeration aside, they are a terrible party and Farage has outstayed his welcome. His gimmick was effective for a time but the party is bigger than him. To mature it needs to move past his tired party trick. It is a good thing that he and the opportunistic Reckless lost. Both of them were joke candidates. Carswell is a serious politician and thus is to be celebrated and roundly criticized for his views but in a sensible and respectful way. The future of UKIP rests on the referendum, so I can’t speculate too much over that. However, in Carswell they have a possible future.
However, the great tragedy referred to above is this:
Lib Dems 2.4 million. 8 seats
SNP 1.45 million. 56 seats.
Some regional factors have to play a part but this is absolutely wrong.
I do not want UKIP in power. But this is a democracy and they deserve approximately 12% of the seats. This has to change. It won’t though.
3. Lib Dems
The Lib Dems are a difficult party to discuss. It is sweet justice that a party that made explicit promises which were then explicitly broken should be punished. This is morally right.
However, absence will make the heart grow fonder I fear. They did a fantastic and selfless job in coalition. But they did a very bad job at politicking. Most of their victories were limiting the Tories. That is a great and appealing thing but it doesn’t win votes. If people want to limit the Tories they’ll vote Labour/SNP/Green because the LDs brought the Tories in before and spoke of it again. They were right to enter coalition but it was inevitable they’d lose the protest vote.
They also did a terrible job at their overt successes – the tax allowance is a good, simple and right policy that Osborne nicked. They were screwed out of electoral reform. They never really spoke up their liberalism in limiting Theresa May.
Similarly they seemed half ashamed and half proud of coalition. They seemed to both shy away from it and embrace it. Which alienated everybody. Like Labour there was no cohesive message. Stick or twist, people.
As to Clegg, the guy’s been crucified by the coalition and by internal politics. It is hard to sympathise too much – he was party leader when he made the tuition pledge. But I do also feel that he did a great service to this country and should probably go down as one of the most important deputy PMs we have ever had. A very good man, I would say. Very honourable. Not a great politician.
4. Ed Balls
Ed Balls
5. Great thread guys it has been a pleasure. Hope to see more of you pop into UK Poligaf through the next parliamentary session
1. Why Labour Lost
What do Labour even stand for? Tony made them a softer tory party, but Dave made the Tories nicer. Labour could be more spendy and socially liberal but isn’t that also the Lib Dems? What about the environment? Only the Greens even gave that the time of day. Basically, post-Blair they never established an identity. They are like the Tories but not quite. There are also lingering doubts that remain from Gordon Brown. There is a definite need to re-establish an identity in the manner that Blair/Smith did in the wake of Thatcher.
In my opinion, this is by establishing themselves as a true alternative to the Tories. Not the ‘anti-tory’ vote, which demonstrably does not work, but as an ideologically separated party. I think this is best achieved by assuming the position vacated by the Lib Dems, as the sensible, socially-liberal, economically centre-left party. Responsible but fair. Capitalistic but redistributive. Protective of minority interests. The SNP has shown that a competent, social democratic party can be successful if run well. The Greens and the Lib Dems are a numerically large voting base that could be brought into a big centre-lefty tent, Democrat-style. Countering the SNP is an easy win for Labour - the longer they remain dominant in Scotland, the harder it will be to remain so. This is a high-point for the SNP from which Labour can reclaim easy seats.
But those are longer-term, ideological elements. Labour were an atrocious opposition; by ineptitude or implicit agreement I don’t know. They spent five years pissing about, failing to regroup, failing to recover and failing to rehabilitate their public image. Though people may not recall exact moments in a parliament, long term images do accumulate in the psyche and all that does for Labour is Ed Milliband eating a sandwich.
This created a Seinfeldian campaign - about nothing. There was no real cohesive idea or set of ideas. Yes, they did have some good stuff in there (zero hours contracts spring to mind), but nothing resembling a coherent, structured plan. Despite the absurdity of the Tory tourettes ‘long term economic plan’, they promised a simple, clean message that tied in nicely with what they’d provided over the previous five years and was compatible with their party image - stability, continuity and economic security. It wasn’t hope, it was safety.
Ed Miliband - the best of a bad bunch of potential leaders - should not be criticised too much. He’s not ideal but who would have done better? His brother who couldn’t win over the labour party and is a dirty rotten Blair II?(Which Cameron does better anyway) He was the standout individual performer in the campaign (from both sides) in the public eye, dubious honour as that may be, but the seeds had already been sown.
Plus, the party is in a terrible state. Who are the contenders? The equivalents of Sayid Javid, Theresa May, IDS (CUNT), Michael Gove, George Osborne or Boris Johnson? Well there’s Andy Burnham, a somber northern man who as Health Minister oversaw a coverup into the failings of a Mid-staffordshire hospital. Alan Johnson, a somber looking Londoner who as Health Minister oversaw a coverup into the failings of a Mid-staffordshire hospital. Yvette Cooper, a decent and competent MP (bonus points for being female) but who happens to be married to the tainted and rejected Ed Balls. Balls and taint is not something you want to think of in a political leader. There’s Chuka Umunna, who google suggests is the British Obama, but fails to live up to the task. He’s limp, whiny and unimpressive. Ok maybe he is the British Obama. But he’s rubbish. Lastly there’s Dan Jarvis who had an impressive military career and is very solid. Ideally we need someone who connects up with identity politics to fire up the youth vote. Preferably female. Maybe asian. Asian female? (avatar quote)
In other words, there is very little of use there. Which is bad, bad news.
There are also technical aspects to the election that we simply don’t know about yet that were of utmost important. The micro-targeting strategy of the Tories seems to have been incredibly effective from the outside given their hit rate in marginals but we shall have to see on that one.
2. Why the less well off vote Tory
A smaller one to mix it up. There is a lot of hand wringing about misinformation and turkeys voting for Christmas but there are several reasons why the less well off might vote Tory.
-They broadly agree with them.
-Immigration/EU – unskilled/low pay workers often bear the brunt of immigration and the Tory nastiness helps out here. Even if they don’t say it, people associate labour with immigration and thus the conservatives are a preferable option.
-Change is scary and better the devil you know, especially when you are living paycheck to paycheck. The coalition did significantly raise the personal tax allowance, (A Lib Dem policy coopted by Osborne and not necessarily an overall positive, but on paper a good thing)
-Welfare(unemployment and disability, specifically) is seen as disproportionately bad by those who work. This may be illogical due to their own personal risk of having to use it, fuelled by media misinformation (Benefits street/Daily Mail style reporting) and a lack of perspective as to the actual welfare total.
Really, it is patronizing to assume that poorer people are idiots for voting Conservative and gets nowhere towards understanding or appreciating their point of view. There are legitimate complaints to be made about misinformation and media bias but the left has surrendered the argument on welfare and on immigration. It is their responsibility to argue the necessity of both.
2. The Great UKIP Tragedy
UKIP are an awful party, nominally about the EU but basically about returning England (not the UK) to its old ways, where women were trophies, men were men and men were white. Mostly the white thing really. Exaggeration aside, they are a terrible party and Farage has outstayed his welcome. His gimmick was effective for a time but the party is bigger than him. To mature it needs to move past his tired party trick. It is a good thing that he and the opportunistic Reckless lost. Both of them were joke candidates. Carswell is a serious politician and thus is to be celebrated and roundly criticized for his views but in a sensible and respectful way. The future of UKIP rests on the referendum, so I can’t speculate too much over that. However, in Carswell they have a possible future.
However, the great tragedy referred to above is this:
UKIP received almost 4 million votes. 1 seat.
Lib Dems 2.4 million. 8 seats
SNP 1.45 million. 56 seats.
Some regional factors have to play a part but this is absolutely wrong.
I do not want UKIP in power. But this is a democracy and they deserve approximately 12% of the seats. This has to change. It won’t though.
3. Lib Dems
The Lib Dems are a difficult party to discuss. It is sweet justice that a party that made explicit promises which were then explicitly broken should be punished. This is morally right.
However, absence will make the heart grow fonder I fear. They did a fantastic and selfless job in coalition. But they did a very bad job at politicking. Most of their victories were limiting the Tories. That is a great and appealing thing but it doesn’t win votes. If people want to limit the Tories they’ll vote Labour/SNP/Green because the LDs brought the Tories in before and spoke of it again. They were right to enter coalition but it was inevitable they’d lose the protest vote.
They also did a terrible job at their overt successes – the tax allowance is a good, simple and right policy that Osborne nicked. They were screwed out of electoral reform. They never really spoke up their liberalism in limiting Theresa May.
Similarly they seemed half ashamed and half proud of coalition. They seemed to both shy away from it and embrace it. Which alienated everybody. Like Labour there was no cohesive message. Stick or twist, people.
As to Clegg, the guy’s been crucified by the coalition and by internal politics. It is hard to sympathise too much – he was party leader when he made the tuition pledge. But I do also feel that he did a great service to this country and should probably go down as one of the most important deputy PMs we have ever had. A very good man, I would say. Very honourable. Not a great politician.
4. Ed Balls
Ed Balls
5. Great thread guys it has been a pleasure. Hope to see more of you pop into UK Poligaf through the next parliamentary session
cyberheater
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I'm seriously bewildered how the majority of folks ending up voting Tory. I simply can't understand it.
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