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[JonathanEx]

The thing that hangs over the Labour defeat to me is trust. I'm in Yorkshire and a friend told me that their dad, lifelong Labour, had voted Tory, because he couldn't trust Labour anymore. The financial crisis still looms over, and barely challenging five years of 'the previous administration' claims doesn't help. If people do feel better off than they did five years ago, why would they believe the evil Tories mantra? A stone tablet or a manifesto that mentions being fully costed on the cover, a few years too late there.

Lots of things Labour stood for policy wise were great with equality and fairness, but without a message to how the working people or middle class would be better off, that they could believe in and trust, well, I can see why it didn't resonate.

That's my take, anyway.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

The thing that hangs over the Labour defeat to me is trust. I'm in Yorkshire and a friend told me that their dad, lifelong Labour, had voted Tory, because he couldn't trust Labour anymore. The financial crisis still looms over, and barely challenging five years of 'the previous administration' claims doesn't help. If people do feel better off than they did five years ago, why would they believe the evil Tories mantra? A stone tablet or a manifesto that mentions being fully costed on the cover, a few years too late there.

Lots of things Labour stood for policy wise were great with equality and fairness, but without a message to how the working people or middle class would be better off, that they could believe in and trust, well, I can see why it didn't resonate.

That's my take, anyway.

BBC's reality check is a good read for sure.

 

[cjp]

 

[CharmingCharlie]

An interesting article on that infamous Treasury Letter that Labour Liam Byrne left behind when Labour left power. You know the one, the one that Cameron kept pulling out every five secs that said "There is no money left".

I knew my successor’s job was tough. I guess I wanted to offer them a friendly word on their first day in one of government’s hardest jobs by honouring an old tradition that stretched back to Churchill in the 1930s and the Tory chancellor Reginald Maudling, who bounced down the steps of the Treasury in 1964 to tell Jim Callaghan: “Sorry to leave it in such a mess, old cock.”

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

Yup it was pretty moronic of ole Liam there.

 

[kitch9]

I don't think there will be fractures internally within the SNP. They all seem like a tightly knitted bunch.

Sad thing is I'm sure Scotland, and myself, wouldn't bat an eyelid at supporting leaving the UK if our politics hadn't become as divided as they have. Nothing Cameron has done so far inspires me with any confidence he is going to win Scotland over. I'm sure if a referendum came about he'll just resort to scare mongering again like before, rather than actually lead a compassionate and worthwhile campaign for "No".

Here's a thing, now I know that for the last couple of centuries thing has existed and everyone has had chance to experience thing for all their lives pretty much daily but let me try to explain why having thing is better than not having thing whilst not being negative about not having thing.....

Good luck with that.

 

[kitch9]

An interesting article on that infamous Treasury Letter that Labour Liam Byrne left behind when Labour left power. You know the one, the one that Cameron kept pulling out every five secs that said "There is no money left".



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

Yup it was pretty moronic of ole Liam there.

Took em 5 years but they finally managed to find an excuse...

That letter cost them the election I reckon, perfect election fodder.

Chukka was on the Marr show this morning, talked more sense in 10 minutes than Ed did all election. I would have voted for him, the line "What's progressive about spending more on interest than we do on housing and school building!?" was very good.

6 weeks too late.

 

[nib95]

Is this his a correction post election? Or pre?

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Is this his a correction post election? Or pre?

If was a week or two before the election. The orignal story which was "OMG LABOUR WILL COST YOU SQULLIANS AND WILL EAT YOUR BABIES" was naturally full front page news. The correction was an insy winsy small little single column thing that I am sure was not intentionally that small or out of the way.

 

[travisbickle]

Why do conservatives hate Bercow so much? I don't know much about the issue but he seems like a fairly effective speaker. He has a good shouting voice at least, I'll miss his yells of EEEED MILIBAAAAAAAND.

Because Glenda Jackson spoke for 5 minutes in the house after the death of Margaret Thatcher, dispelling the myths that the Tories were trying to push and actually criticising the selfish attitude of Tory policy. Then John Bercow told a Conservative minister, in a polite way, to "shut up" after he tried to complain.

Took em 5 years but they finally managed to find an excuse...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-note-successor

He said straight after it was a "joke" that referenced an older infamous occasion of political history.

 

[twobear]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-note-successor

He said straight after it was a "joke" that referenced an older infamous occasion of political history.

I mean it was clear to anyone that it was a joke. It's a pretty shocking indictment of the state of political discourse in this country that it was used by the Tories as evidence in favour of austerity.

 

[RedShift]

I've been reading up on Dan Jarvis, looking at his military record he was apparently aide to the guy who told the American NATO commander he wouldn't "start world war three for you" in Kosovo.

Does this mean he's associated with James Blunt? I'm not sure I can support someone with such ties.

 

[phisheep]

I do wish people would stop referring to this as "austerity". I'm just about old enough to remember post-war austerity - food rationed, petrol rationed, paper rationed and so on.

The "austerity" that we have apparently had so far is a pale shadow.

 

[Jezbollah]

I've been reading up on Dan Jarvis, looking at his military record he was apparently aide to the guy who told the American NATO commander he wouldn't "start world war three for you" in Kosovo.

Does this mean he's associated with James Blunt? I'm not sure I can support someone with such ties.

^^ Your raise a good point. But he also helped in telling an American commander to fuck off.

I think this evens it out.

(and I read a bit about Dan Jarvis. I like him).

 

[Audioboxer]

Here's a thing, now I know that for the last couple of centuries thing has existed and everyone has had chance to experience thing for all their lives pretty much daily but let me try to explain why having thing is better not having thing whilst not being negative about not having thing.....

Good luck with that.

Trying to make sense of that post hurt my head.

Are you trying to ask me to be positive about independence without being negative about staying in the UK?

 

[PJV3]

I do wish people would stop referring to this as "austerity". I'm just about old enough to remember post-war austerity - food rationed, petrol rationed, paper rationed and so on.

The "austerity" that we have apparently had so far is a pale shadow.

Cool.

And for some families it is really hurting them.
You call it what you like.

 

[hal9001]

At least the city and big financial players are reacting well. Here are some of their reactions:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cd288d8c-f591-11e4-bc6d-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ZjuRRM00

The benchmark FTSE 100 index jumped 2.3 per cent, reminding market veterans of relief rallies greeting Tory victories under Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s. Somewhere in the City, braying bankers were surely sloshing champagne around, another electoral ritual of that long-dead era.

Liam Frawley, a recruitment consultant more thriftily sipping Peroni at the Sugar Loaf pub near the Bank of England said: “The Conservatives support business, so there’ll be more jobs for me to fill and I can go on holiday to the Bahamas.”

The chief executive of a big outsourcing company was hopeful the Conservatives would “open up” the UK’s cherished National Health Service by handing over routine administration to private contractors. “There’s a lot of inefficiency. Streamlining has to be a good thing,” he said in, words to chill the blood of trades unionists.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

You lot got a preference?

Lib Dem leadership: Tim Farron 'determined to play big role'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32674865

I don't really know much about Lamb, but it's either him or Farron for leadership, and my vote will be for Farron.

If by some bizarre circumstance Mark Williams puts his name forward, though, I'll be voting for him. :^)

In other news, over 5000 people have joined the LDs in the days following Thursday, putting membership over 50,000.

 

[Black Republican]

looks like Liz Kendall is officially running for lab leader

You lot got a preference?

Lib Dem leadership: Tim Farron 'determined to play big role'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32674865

I don't really know much about Lamb, but it's either him or Farron for leadership, and my vote will be for Farron.

If by some bizarre circumstance Mark Williams puts his name forward, though, I'll be voting for him. :^)

In other news, over 5000 people have joined the LDs in the days following Thursday, putting membership over 50,000.

local elections wise, lib dems always do well right?

 

[Huw_Dawson]

local elections wise, lib dems always do well right?

No, we've been kicked in the teeth for the last five years. But typically local parties focus on local elections, as it's from successes there that they get the data and candidates they need for the general elections.

The Lib Dems are probably the best party in the country when it comes to campaigning locally, however.

If the current angry and passionate feeling within the party holds until next year's locals, we're going to have a lot of councillors in former Lib Dem seats very scared indeed.

 

[PJV3]

You lot got a preference?

Lib Dem leadership: Tim Farron 'determined to play big role'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32674865

I don't really know much about Lamb, but it's either him or Farron for leadership, and my vote will be for Farron.

If by some bizarre circumstance Mark Williams puts his name forward, though, I'll be voting for him. :^)

I'm not as downbeat about their prospects as the Libdem's are. Get the right leader and a lot of the tactical voters will return.

They just need to promise that they won't go into coalition beyond confidence and supply. Vote Libdem and get Libdem votes at Westminster.

Farron seems ok, the sort of candidate that could pull it off.


Liz kendall isn't my cup of tea for labour leader, even if it would be funny seeing Greg Davies peering angrily out of No10.

 

[twobear]

At least the city and big financial players are reacting well. Here are some of their reactions:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cd288d8c-f591-11e4-bc6d-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ZjuRRM00

The chief executive of a big outsourcing company was hopeful the Conservatives would “open up” the UK’s cherished National Health Service by handing over routine administration to private contractors. “There’s a lot of inefficiency. Streamlining has to be a good thing,” he said in, words to chill the blood of trades unionists.

ANY PARTY WHO SUPPORTED PRIVATISING THE NHS WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF OFFICE, RIGHT GUYS?

 

[Audioboxer]

ANY PARTY WHO SUPPORTED PRIVATISING THE NHS WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF OFFICE, RIGHT GUYS?

In Scotland yeah, in England, well....

 

[Tak3n]

so Liz Kendall is running for Labour Leader, never going to happen IMO

 

[CyclopsRock]

Trying to make sense of that post hurt my head.

Are you trying to ask me to be positive about independence without being negative about staying in the UK?

The opposite I think. He's making the (reasonable) point that it's basically impossible to campaign positively about the status quo, because people already know what it's like - so instead you have to say why the alternative is worse, which is inherently negative.

 

[kitch9]

Trying to make sense of that post hurt my head.

Are you trying to ask me to be positive about independence without being negative about staying in the UK?

Wrong way round, but close.

 

[kitch9]

ANY PARTY WHO SUPPORTED PRIVATISING THE NHS WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF OFFICE, RIGHT GUYS?

Labour privatised stuff.

 

[twobear]

I do wish people would stop referring to this as "austerity". I'm just about old enough to remember post-war austerity - food rationed, petrol rationed, paper rationed and so on.

The "austerity" that we have apparently had so far is a pale shadow.

?????

I mean, that's their word for it, not ours. They call it that to make it sound sensible, rational, and measured, when it is none of those things.

If I got to name it what I wanted, I'd call it 'a callous attack on the least prosperous members of society on behalf of the most prosperous', which is what it actually is.

 

[PJV3]

so Liz Kendall is running for Labour Leader, never going to happen IMO

Nope.

I'm really coming round to the idea of Dan Jarvis.

He's got the man of principle thing going on.

 

[Meadows]

Lammy 4 lyf

 

[phisheep]

?????

I mean, that's their word for it, not ours. They call it that to make it sound sensible, rational, and measured, when it is none of those things.

If I got to name it what I wanted, I'd call it 'a callous attack on the least prosperous members of society on behalf of the most prosperous', which is what it actually is.

Well, if I got to name it I might name it "why in the hell are we employing anybody at all in the department of Culture Media and Sport?".

But at least we are agreed that "austerity" ain't the greatest label for it.

 

[twobear]

Well, if I got to name it I might name it "why in the hell are we employing anybody at all in the department of Culture Media and Sport?".

But at least we are agreed that "austerity" ain't the greatest label for it.

'Stupidity' is another pretty good term for it, and it has the added bonus of being consonant with the official name.

 

[PJV3]

?????

I mean, that's their word for it, not ours. They call it that to make it sound sensible, rational, and measured, when it is none of those things.

If I got to name it what I wanted, I'd call it 'a callous attack on the least prosperous members of society on behalf of the most prosperous', which is what it actually is.

This is like the terms friendly fire and collateral damage.

They're ideological budget cuts(some are)

I didn't like the tonnes of money being pumped into the private housing via housing benefit, but the solution for me would be building/repairing houses.

 

[Maledict]

It will be interesting seeing what happens to their promise of "right to Buy" for private housing associations. There will be a huge challenge to that policy in the high court - government seizing private property to sell to people isn't exactly a standard conservative track.

I really suspect that was one of the ideas they were hoping would be abandoned in any coalition or minority government.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Liz Kendall is not a good candidate. It's a bit depressing, but I don't feel like there are any strong female front-runners for the Labour leadership. Yvette is too tainted by the old days and the Balls connection, Reeves can't handle the media very well, and Kendall simply doesn't have much appeal to anyone outside the metropolitan leftie base. At least there we have Lammy for a strong and credible ethnic minority leader, although honestly I'd actually rather he focused on the position of London mayor because otherwise Tessa Jowell helpnopleasenoohgod. It's frustrating that for all the effort the Labour Party has put in, the Conservatives have a stronger female front-runner in Theresa May, who imo is the most terrifying prospect ftpov of a Labour voter. Boris will get exposed if he makes it to the big stage and Osborne has presentational abilities that make Miliband look like an oratorical genius. May is smart, determined, apparently unfuckable despite having been in the Home Office five years, and a good talker. Really worried about her.

Jarvis vs. May would be a heavyweight battle.

 

[Biggzy]

It will be interesting seeing what happens to their promise of "right to Buy" for private housing associations. There will be a huge challenge to that policy in the high court - government seizing private property to sell to people isn't exactly a standard conservative track.

I really suspect that was one of the ideas they were hoping would be abandoned in any coalition or minority government.

It will be very interesting to see what the Conservatives do with their manifesto pledges, as a lot of them did appear to be them throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

[PJV3]

Liz Kendall is not a good candidate. It's a bit depressing, but I don't feel like there are any strong female front-runners for the Labour leadership. Yvette is too tainted by the old days and the Balls connection, Reeves can't handle the media very well, and Kendall simply doesn't have much appeal to anyone outside the metropolitan leftie base. At least there we have Lammy for a strong and credible ethnic minority leader, although honestly I'd actually rather he focused on the position of London mayor because otherwise Tessa Jowell helpnopleasenoohgod. It's frustrating that for all the effort the Labour Party has put in, the Conservatives have a stronger female front-runner in Theresa May, who imo is the most terrifying prospect ftpov of a Labour voter. Boris will get exposed if he makes it to the big stage and Osborne has presentational abilities that make Miliband look like an oratorical genius. May is smart, determined, apparently unfuckable despite having been in the Home Office five years, and a good talker. Really worried about her.

Jarvis vs. May would be a heavyweight battle.

Kendall is terrible, looking at her I don't see the base being excited beyond meeting her husband.

 

[electroshockwave]

Nope.

I'm really coming round to the idea of Dan Jarvis.

He's got the man of principle thing going on.

I think the fact that he's not a career politician or someone who entered it from finance or journalism really makes him stand out. Thinking of something like the Putin question that Paxman asked Ed, by comparison who would question Jarvis on such a thing considering his military record? And he seems to have the right attitude with going door to door, meeting people and holding constituency meetings.

 

[PJV3]

I think the fact that he's not a career politician or someone who entered it from finance or journalism really makes him stand out. Thinking of something like the Putin question that Paxman asked Ed, by comparison who would question Jarvis on such a thing considering his military record? And he seems to have the right attitude with going door to door, meeting people and holding constituency meetings.

Plus he actually cares by all accounts.
Unlike some of the career types that fill the house.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Blairite cockroaches coming out of the woodwork suddenly. They don't have a clue that he's the one who made the Labour brand utterly toxic to millions of working people.

 

[Xun]

so Liz Kendall is running for Labour Leader, never going to happen IMO

She's a Blairite, so no thank you.

 

[PJV3]

Blairite cockroaches coming out of the woodwork suddenly. They don't have a clue that he's the one who made the Labour brand utterly toxic to millions of working people.

They're really not helping, I get the thing about aspiration, but the gleeful attacks on the Left of the Labour party is dumb self harm, the loony radicals were expelled years ago.

 

[Maledict]

Blairite cockroaches coming out of the woodwork suddenly. They don't have a clue that he's the one who made the Labour brand utterly toxic to millions of working people.

I think you are vastly misreading Blair and his legacy. He is disliked now because of Iraq, and what he's done afterwards, but the central core of his original appeal remains very much intact.

Labour has to try something new, because their current platform has been comprehensively rejected by the country. They didn't GET working people as a voting block, that's why they did so badly in the marginals. In this very thread you have multiple anecdotes about working people not voting for them - people who should be their core base.

 

[RedSparrows]

It's funny how the system magnifies slight differences. 6% more Tory voters than Labour = 'comprehensive' defeat. Which it does, in all realistic senses.

 

[PJV3]

I think you are vastly misreading Blair and his legacy. He is disliked now because of Iraq, and what he's done afterwards, but the central core of his original appeal remains very much intact.

Labour has to try something new, because their current platform has been comprehensively rejected by the country. They didn't GET working people as a voting block, that's why they did so badly in the marginals. In this very thread you have multiple anecdotes about working people not voting for them - people who should be their core base.

I dont think they are that far from having a better result next time.

A new leader and a bit more focus on wealth creation. The SNP rise and the collapse of the Libdem's just combined and created a perfect storm for the Tories. Ed still managed to increase the Labour vote.

Next election will be 10 years of cuts, I don't think labour should drop inequality from the agenda, it should be a bedrock that isn't the only focus of a campaign.

The dislike of Blair within the party is due to his riding roughshod over everyone, he didn't even really care for cabinet. It's him and a few advisers and god.

 

[Number45]

Is it possible for the vote north of the border to swing heavily back towards Labour next time out IF it turns out that the SNP have little success with getting the green light for their policies this term?

 

[Ding-Ding]

'Stupidity' is another pretty good term for it, and it has the added bonus of being consonant with the official name.

Stupidity is certainly the word I would use when a government spends 90bn more per year on its people, than it takes in through revenue.

 

[PJV3]

Is it possible for the vote north of the border to swing heavily back towards Labour next time out IF it turns out that the SNP have little success with getting the green light for their policies this term?

Not unless the London crowd show some humility and respect for the Scottish electorate, then maybe over a few election cycles. Giving the Scotland labour party more freedom would speed it up.

 

[Number45]

Not unless the London crowd show some humility and respect for the Scottish electorate, then maybe over a few election cycles. Giving the Scotland labour party more freedom would speed it up.

I just wondered if it might be seen that they would have the ability to swing the next election, and we see a huge wave of tactical voting to make it happen. Just thinking out loud really.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Is it possible for the vote north of the border to swing heavily back towards Labour next time out IF it turns out that the SNP have little success with getting the green light for their policies this term?

I don't think so. Oddly, I think Labour would have been most likely to make progress in Scotland if the Labour-SNP C&S arrangement had actually happened, as I think the SNP would have struggled to differentiate themselves from Labour and Labour would prove they can do good for Scotland. As it is, the SNP can sell themselves as defending Scotland against the Conservatives - which, in fairness, they are. It'll take at least a decade for Labour to manage to get back to even a reasonable position in Scotland, as far as I can see.

 

[Matt_]