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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!

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PJV3

Member
There was no appetite for electoral reform from any wing of the Labour party once Tony Blair swept the country with a huge majority. Even out of power, there was no real support for the AV referendum from right or the left.

The Lib Dems are the only party that have brought it to the table but the resounding failure of the AV referendum and their collapse at this election proves that there is no appetite for change from the electorate. As much as it disappoints me, time and again the electorate give FPTP a resounding endorsement. The issue is dead for a generation.


There was plenty of desire for reform within the Labour party, most of the constitutional reform that happened Blair inherited from the John Smith period.

The party lost its way under Blair, it's the Smith model that it should be going back to. He laid the foundation for 97, not Blair.

AV wasn't reform, it was a slight shuffle of the deck.
 

Tak3n

Banned
I think you over estimate the opposition. Restricting civil liberties has proven very popular politics for both Labour and the Conservatives and kippers certainly aren't going to object to any of these policies. The Greens and Lib Dems are the only parties that would seriously object and their vote share is now but a small minority of the electorate.

Five years of preventing the human rights act from being scrapped hasn't been viewed as popular politics.


oh, I thought it was opposed by everyone who cared about civil liberties, I appreciate parliament wont object I was more referring to people
 
oh, I thought it was opposed by everyone who cared about civil liberties, I appreciate parliament wont object I was more referring to people

Grass roots movements like 38 degrees will kick up a lot of fuss but the point is that the majority of the British public don't seem to care about civil liberties. It's not an important vote winning issue for most and on the contrary there's a lot of support for further restrictions.

I certainly don't see Labour mobilising against it as they'll be seen as weak on crime and immigration if they do. Afterall, they're the party that ushered in the surveillance state and increased detention times. Their recent record on civil liberties is worse than the Conservatives.
 

PJV3

Member
Grass roots movements like 38 degrees will kick up a lot of fuss but the point is that the majority of the British public don't seem to care about civil liberties. It's not an important vote winning issue for most and on the contrary there's a lot of support for further restrictions.

I certainly don't see Labour mobilising against it as they'll be seen as weak on crime and immigration if they do. Afterall, they're the party that ushered in the surveillance state and increased detention times. Their recent record on civil liberties is worse than the Conservatives.

I think they might challenge that now that they have a free hand.
 
Sadly, I'd be very surprised if the average man-in-the-street gave two hoots about civil liberties, be they human rights or snooping.

Precisely, if anything the popular opinion is that we have too many civil liberties and snooping/surveillance didn't go far enough.

Like electoral reform, Labours recent record on civil liberties is actually worse than the conservatives and for me personally, it's a major red line as to why I can't support the party. I've accepted that I'm in an extreme monority here though. Just like electoral reform, don't let the echo chamber of GAF and other online discussion groups convince you that it is an important issue to the British public; it's not.
 

Tak3n

Banned
Yeah he did. But he also said that he personally wanted it to come back. Who knows what he really thinks though, was some obvious pandering to countryside conservatives.

to be honest, it caused more problems banning it than not, they still take place, and they are a headache for police, which they don't need...

I agree with the ban whole heartedly, it is just the country wide alliance just learnt the rules to get around it, and unless there is a policeman on every hunt it is impossible to manage
 
I think they might challenge that now that they have a free hand.

I sincerely hope so but I remain extremely sceptical. It's not a vote winner (if anything, it's a vote loser) and it will require incredibly strong leadership and vision to change that.
 

PJV3

Member
I sincerely hope so but I remain extremely sceptical. It's not a vote winner (if anything, it's a vote loser) and it will require incredibly strong leadership and vision to change that.

Actually I was saying the Conservatives are likely to be worse than Labour without the Libdem's as partners.

They won't let Labour triangulate this time on law and order etc, unless labour are prepared to go really extreme on it.
 

Spaghetti

Member
this is the start of chuka's leadership campaign btw

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...cognise-the-mistakes-we-made?CMP=share_btn_tw

- ignore scotland for the moment, focus on england
- appeal to aspirational middle classes, conservative voters
- keep the stuff about the 1'%, tax evasion, non-doms
- but don't come across as anti-buisness in rhetoric
- beat the tories on the economic record, like johnson annoyed by labour not attacking the tory claims they bankrupted the country
- pro public sector reform, more private-public partnerships
- decentralization of power
- be more international in scope, but no mention of foreign policy
- pro electoral reform (somewhat related to ignoring scotland, i'd imagine)
most of this sounds okay but the bolded is making alarm bells ring for me. the NHS is being eaten by PFI right now, and there are serious questions about the companies getting the contracts. especially after G4S' dodgy record
 

PJV3

Member
I don't mind appealing to aspirational floating voters, there's no point trying to get Conservative ones unless winning matters more than anything else.

Aspirational Conservative voters should be voting Conservative, I like real choice at an election.
 

Tak3n

Banned
most of this sounds okay but the bolded is making alarm bells ring for me. the NHS is being eaten by PFI right now, and there are serious questions about the companies getting the contracts. especially after G4S' dodgy record

if they promise electoral reform, they will do better in Scotland I reckon
 
I thought people were joking about bringing back fox hunting.

Sadly Chinner, I think an awful lot of people thought the Tories were joking about a lot of things.

"Hahaha, of course they won't mess with the HRA, or bring back the Snooper's Charter, or change the boundaries in their favour when the argument is strong for PR, or sell off the NHS, or vote en masse to block legal protection for child abuse whistleblowers. They're just puling your leg mate!"

I had to send a text to my friend in the legal profession this morning to offer my deepest condolences about the appointment of Michael Gove.
 

Spaghetti

Member
I don't mind appealing to aspirational floating voters, there's no point trying to get Conservative ones unless winning matters more than anything else.

Aspirational Conservative voters should be voting Conservative, I like real choice at an election.
i think he's really aiming for the floating voters that got the conservatives the majority.

chucka dodging the question of running for leader on the marr show, but he hit the nail on the head on the economic record arguments labour failed to address. he's interesting, but fucking hell there are uncomfortable shades of blair.
 

PJV3

Member
i think he's really aiming for the floating voters that got the conservatives the majority.

chucka dodging the question of running for leader on the marr show, but he hit the nail on the head on the economic record arguments labour failed to address. he's interesting, but fucking hell there are uncomfortable shades of blair.

He's not going to work as leader, I can't see the base being motivated by him. Blair put me off oily politicians for life.
 
Actually I was saying the Conservatives are likely to be worse than Labour without the Libdem's as partners.

They won't let Labour triangulate this time on law and order etc, unless labour are prepared to go really extreme on it.

Oh, fair enough and that is quite likely. It's why I was clinging on to the hope that the LD's retained at least ~30 MPs so that they'd still have the balance of power. I'd have been quite happy with another coalition as Labour clearly weren't in any state to run the country and there's a lot of "nasty" elements of Tory mantra that could have been tempered with a similar arrangement to last time.

Alas, the British public voted against civil liberties and voting reform by resolutely kicking out the Lib Dems, so I accept it is a minority opinion.

Where do Dan Jarvis and Chukka Ummana stand on these issues??
 

DBT85

Member
Imagine if the ballot papers had a pair of boxes to put your cross in

a) who do you vote for
b) who do you actually want to win

Would love to see the crossover and just how many votes parties lose due to people voting to keep another lot out.
 
Imagine if the ballot papers had a pair of boxes to put your cross in

a) who do you vote for
b) who do you actually want to win

Would love to see the crossover and just how many votes parties lose due to people voting to keep another lot out.

We had the chance to get rid of tactical voting in the AV referendum but it was going to kill too many babies, so the British public shot it down.
 
if they promise electoral reform, they will do better in Scotland I reckon

Scotland won't be part of Westminster elections as we know it by 2020 anyway. Either they get full devo-max with full fiscal autonomy or we'll have another referendum which will return a yes vote. There's no going back now, and Cameron doesn't want the legacy of presiding over the breakup of the union.

It can work to Labour's benefit in the long run, allowing them to split the party and push the Scottish wing much further left. There's just too much of a chasm between English and Scottish politics right now, to bridge the two within five years.
 
Screen+Shot+2013-01-28+at+16.22.19.png
 

PJV3

Member
FFA would even allow Labour to make changes without fully splitting the party. The only sticking point would be Trident, but that remains true even if they separate.

The compassion of Smith, the Conviction of Brown and the raw sexual energy of Ed Miliband, 600 seats.
 
AV doesn't really get rid of tactical voting, it just formalises it. If you support the third place party but vote for one if the favourites to keep the other favourite out, the third place party that you actually support is still never going to get in. It WOULD make it more likely that your preferred favourite gets in, but that's the opposite of getting rid of tactical voting.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
FFA would even allow Labour to make changes without fully splitting the party. The only sticking point would be Trident, but that remains true even if they separate.

The compassion of Smith, the Conviction of Brown and the raw sexual energy of Ed Miliband, 600 seats.

You forgot the rotting corpse of Blair
 

Empty

Member
most of this sounds okay but the bolded is making alarm bells ring for me. the NHS is being eaten by PFI right now, and there are serious questions about the companies getting the contracts. especially after G4S' dodgy record

all the blairites (chuka, kendall, mandelson) are framing it as the importance of embracing new technology - maybe to deflect fears they're just returning to politics of early nineties, maybe to feel like they have a more futuristic vision - but you know that's going to be a big part of it too.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Somebody strangle Tristram Hunt.

Appeal to the John Lewis and Waitrose community.

Fucking idiot.

The Blairites don't have a clue. They've completely lost all sense of what is relatable. Mandelson was talking about the hole in the polo mint. Who knows... Chuka is the human form of their mundane soundbitery.



Fun fact: Hunt was in the footlights with Mitchell and Webb. Where did it all go wrong for him?
 

PJV3

Member
lol

if your name is tristram, you're a son of a baron and you want to be labour party leader you can't say that

John Mann is the only one who has said anything sensible. 2 dimensional politics are over, the UK is all over the place, something the right should be considering if they think they have the country sown up.
 

Moosichu

Member
Who thinks the electorate don't really care about right or Left and only really votes for who looks and sounds more charming and sensible regardless of where they fall? I think this election was fought on personalities not policy.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Who thinks the electorate don't really care about right or Left and only really votes for who looks and sounds more charming and sensible regardless of where they fall? I think this election was fought on personalities not policy.

People don't vote on policy, they vote on the character presented by the party, by their leaders and that manifests through their policies. They might not like tory cuts to welfare for example, but it shows that they are willing to take seriously the issues of economic governance.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Reflecting a bit on what happened and what happens next.

(disclaimer – my political background is somewhat mixed: my mother’s family has been small shopkeepers and Conservative councillors going ever so far back, my father’s family has been manual workers and trades and Labour Councillors going ever so far back, I am at heart an old-fashioned Whig Liberal but have (briefly) been a member of Plaid Cymru and Conservatives in the past. My brothers are staunch Labour. I don’t disrespect any of them. You may read “in my humble opinion” into every remark following.)

Liberal Democrats

The LibDems were always going to lose seats having gone into coalition with the Conservatives. “Propping up the Tories” didn’t go down at all well with the more SDP end of the party and those seats were going anyhow.

But Clegg made an enormous tactical blunder during the campaign when he spoke explicitly of (paraphrasing here) either granting compassion to a minority Tory government or granting fiscal responsibility to a Labour one. That explicit nod to Labour lost him all of the seats in the South West – the old Whig arm of the party.

If instead he had stood on the LibDem’s record in government – which was, I think, a good one - and simply said what his policies would be if in government then it is likely he would not have lost those seats, that the Conservatives would not have had an overall majority and that the LibDems would still be in government. Potential LibDem voters (like me for instance) were put off by the prospect of a link-up with minority Labour/SNP.

That’s down to two things: first, Clegg read too much into the polls; and second, he lost sight of the fundamental aim of any political party which is to govern. The long-term aim of the LibDems should be to displace the Labour party as the “other” party in the UK, and that just might have been possible to make a start on with these results. That’s where Clegg blew it.

Where do they go from here? It’s difficult. They are typically strong on civil liberties, recently strong on responsible government, and have considerable passion and ground-level organisation. But it is a long fight. They need a leader who will stand up for their principles for the next 20-odd years and, yes take opportunities.

Don’t know where they will find one though. It’s a shame. I’ve rather enjoyed their time in coalition and I thought they could capitalise on it, but they blew it big time.

Labour

I think Miliband came across well during the short campaign. More himself, more human, more understanding, more sensible. Better under pressure too.

Labour lost it on two things. One of them is the narrative on the economy which was exploited by the Tory press, but I don’t think that is the whole story by any means – it certainly isn’t for me. Everyone I know recognises that the economic problems weren’t Labours fault and that their immediate reaction to them was actually pretty well done. The other is the toxic Blair/Brown feud background to Labours 13 years in power which has emerged in goodness knows how many books and newspapers since. If a party can’t govern itself properly when in government, why the hell should anybody vote for it? Gordon Brown might well have been a good, even a great, Prime Minister at one stage – but by the time he got the job he was a paranoid control freak. Maybe he always was. But he was unopposed as party leader. Did nobody have any sense?

Miliband kind of inherited this and should have immediately distanced himself from it. He didn’t. He went into the campaign with precious few policies – the 35%, the preaching to the converted. He also didn’t deal at all well with the SNP upsurge, he should have embraced it. (Remember Comintern?) The SNP is a sister party to Labour and he has a lot to learn from them.

The big question is what Labour does next. It has no monopoly on compassion, it has no monopoly on social mobility (quite the reverse now, with the rise of the Red Princes), and its Union supporters are increasingly irrelevant.

Labour needs to find a new narrative. It has been fighting the battles long ago won (public services, worker’s rights are now here to stay). It is no good claiming that we have ten minutes to save the NHS when everybody knows that in five years’ time the NHS will not have been destroyed.

It needs to find a new battle. It’s most emphatically not about whether it moves to the left or to the right. I’m pretty convinced that if it moves to the right it will lose, on account of the Tories having the centrist position already; I’m pretty convinced that if it moves to the “left” it will lose too, on account of supporting already well-paid public sector workers; I’m pretty convinced that the new battle is not over benefit claimants either, you can’t do only that and get a majority. If I had the Labour party I would go big for the self-employed and small businesses. They are the new disenfranchised, just like industrial workers in the early 20th century. Excluded from the minimum wage, largely excluded from Working Tax Credits (which incidentally I think is a bit of a stupid idea) and hampered by all manner of employer legislation.

Many areas of the UK are pretty well lost to big business – think of Merthyr Tydfil for instance – so a boost to small business is about the only thing left.

I don’t think any of this is going to hit home to the current leadership contenders. It’ll take another change to go for it, so this is a good leadership election for any candidate to lose.
There’s a big change of direction needed.

UKIP

Fucked, thank goodness. Don't change the voting system just yet.

SNP

All power to them. Well done. Proof that a socialist party can win and win big time.
Maybe Labour should take a few lessons from them.

Best bet for Cameron – give them enough powers to hang themselves with. Best bet for SNP – take those powers but decline the hanging bit. Best bet for Labour, rebrand as the English branch of the SNP.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Good post, phi. You are dead right on Labour. Completely spot on.

Though I disagree with two points;

1. Don't really understand your comparison between Brown and Milliband? It doesn't really matter, but I just don't see the connection.

2. I think you may overexaggerate the damage of Clegg explicitly referencing coalition with Labour. I was very shocked when he made his heart/brain coalition reference because you expect the smaller parties to pretend at least that they are aiming for victory. But I just don't think the Labour coalition reference is enough to have made a huge difference. It is just another reason not to vote for them - embarrassed of government record, explicit betrayal of core policies, Clegg's unpopularity, loss of status as protest vote etc.
 

tomtom94

Member
Good post, phi. You are dead right on Labour. Completely spot on.

Though I disagree with two points;

1. Don't really understand your comparison between Brown and Milliband? It doesn't really matter, but I just don't see the connection.

2. I think you may overexaggerate the damage of Clegg explicitly referencing coalition with Labour. I was very shocked when he made his heart/brain coalition reference because you expect the smaller parties to pretend at least that they are aiming for victory. But I just don't think the Labour coalition reference is enough to have made a huge difference. It is just another reason not to vote for them - embarrassed of government record, explicit betrayal of core policies, Clegg's unpopularity, loss of status as protest vote etc.

I would go further and say Clegg's problem wasn't identifying himself as a coalition partner, it was identifying the Lib Dems as a coalition partner with pretty much anyone - they lost any shred of political identity on either side of the spectrum and just became a centrist vote. The fact that their biggest promise was, once again, in education really did not help matters.
 

Tak3n

Banned
what I am really looking forward to is if Salmond tows the party line, we have already seen he has not, banging on about independence whilst Sturgeon keeps saying it is not a vote for independence...

if he constantly chimes on about it at PMQ I can see there being a bit of a rift open up between the party...I actually agree with Sturgeon, she should only now call a referendum is she is 80% confident they will win, as another loss would kill their party and out it to bed for 50 years probably...it will be fascinating to see what their manifesto is for Holyrood elections, as if independence is on there and they sweep to power...

goodbye Scotland, enjoy your oil
 

Tak3n

Banned
I would go further and say Clegg's problem wasn't identifying himself as a coalition partner, it was identifying the Lib Dems as a coalition partner with pretty much anyone - they lost any shred of political identity on either side of the spectrum and just became a centrist vote. The fact that their biggest promise was, once again, in education really did not help matters.

this, it was ridiculous, all he was worried about was staying in power by trying to sell his party to anyone who would listen....and then be happy with a fucking referendum on the EU, when a year prior to that he went into a tv debate to argue against it.....the guys 14 special advisors, should be embarrassed, ridiculous idea.... all they kept going on and on and on and on about was they would do a coalition with anyone, regardless of whether they agreed or not

good fucking riddance, and I expect they might even be disbanded as a party next election
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Good post, phi. You are dead right on Labour. Completely spot on.

Though I disagree with two points;

1. Don't really understand your comparison between Brown and Milliband? It doesn't really matter, but I just don't see the connection.

I didn't intend to directly compare Brown with Miliband. I did intend to suggest that Miliband should have, early on (like after the various diaries came out), have explicitly distanced himself from from that sort of internal feud. Since he didn't, he was always in danger of being tarnished with it.

2. I think you may overexaggerate the damage of Clegg explicitly referencing coalition with Labour. I was very shocked when he made his heart/brain coalition reference because you expect the smaller parties to pretend at least that they are aiming for victory. But I just don't think the Labour coalition reference is enough to have made a huge difference. It is just another reason not to vote for them - embarrassed of government record, explicit betrayal of core policies, Clegg's unpopularity, loss of status as protest vote etc.

I don't think I did. It's a West Country thing. Labour never got any real traction here, largely because by the time the Labour Party was invented all the big industry here had been worked out - either literally (mining), or by being moved up north (Bristol Docks vanishing to Liverpool). The West Country Lib Dems are pretty well the rump of the old Whig party, and any suggestion of coalition with Labour was always going to turn them off.

If Clegg's seat had been in Redruth (or if he had consulted the guy in Redruth) he would not in a month of Sundays made that statement.

It's an interesting message for Labour that, though they claim compassion for the underdogs, they have no traction in one of the most underdogged parts of the UK.
 

Empty

Member
I didn't intend to directly compare Brown with Miliband. I did intend to suggest that Miliband should have, early on (like after the various diaries came out), have explicitly distanced himself from from that sort of internal feud. Since he didn't, he was always in danger of being tarnished with it.

i don't agree at all. feel like one of miliband's greatest strengths is that he clearly side-stepped that and got the party on his side. it's notable that only now do the knives truly come out. he might not have slammed brown, but he distanced himself in action and deeds.

also feel like very few people care about specific personality battles this far on. great newspaper fodder but about as memorable as what happened in popular reality tv shows from ten years ago. i'm not particularly convinced they ever did, either. labour won three majorities despite that backdrop and brown lost because of other factors (state of the economy, very old government out of ideas, grumpy personality, lots of poor decisions), maybe you could say that they were the end result of years of power struggles but i don't think many would identify that as the larger cause.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
labour won three majorities despite that backdrop and brown lost because of other factors

Yes, and Yes. But the extent of the feud didn't become apparent to the outside world (like me) until after Labour was out of office, and it was toxic, and Ed didn't sufficiently distance himself from it.
 

Audioboxer

Member
what I am really looking forward to is if Salmond tows the party line, we have already seen he has not, banging on about independence whilst Sturgeon keeps saying it is not a vote for independence...

if he constantly chimes on about it at PMQ I can see there being a bit of a rift open up between the party...I actually agree with Sturgeon, she should only now call a referendum is she is 80% confident they will win, as another loss would kill their party and out it to bed for 50 years probably...it will be fascinating to see what their manifesto is for Holyrood elections, as if independence is on there and they sweep to power...

goodbye Scotland, enjoy your oil

I don't think there will be fractures internally within the SNP. They all seem like a tightly knitted bunch.

Sad thing is I'm sure Scotland, and myself, wouldn't bat an eyelid at supporting leaving the UK if our politics hadn't become as divided as they have. Nothing Cameron has done so far inspires me with any confidence he is going to win Scotland over. I'm sure if a referendum came about he'll just resort to scare mongering again like before, rather than actually lead a compassionate and worthwhile campaign for "No".
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
goodbye Scotland, enjoy your oil

that's if the surprisingly unionist shetland isles don't become the falklands of the north sea - or an infinitely rich independent with a cosy westminster trade deal.

the opportunity for bastardly machiavellian manoeuvring given that situation almost makes me want to see independence happen just to squeeze my europa universalis gland.
 
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